My post on the shootings in France has brought tens of thousands of people to this site – but not to read my dull contribution. People are coming to read the comments from other readers.
Today’s development of the bomb squad descending on the al-Hilli house does not in itself worry me enormously. You may recall the massive terror scare that was ramped up when some Muslim students in Manchester were found to own a bag of sugar.
In fact we have the opposite phenomenon today, with the spook-fed “security correspondents” on TV lining up to tell us it is probably just everyday household stuff. This deviation from the standard Islamophobic “Muslims = bombs” narrative is so startling it makes me wonder why the “move along, nothing to see here” line is being taken so quickly.
My own security services sources insist that al-Hilli was not a person of current interest to the UK intelligence agencies and was not involved in anything clandestine. I have no reason to disbelieve them. On the other hand, the limited and confusing information in the media is almost entirely from official sources. I find it very strange indeed how little attention has been paid to the murdered French cyclist, and how easily it is presumed he was just a passerby. Surely it is as likely he was the intended victim and the al-Hillis the accidental witnesses?
Please do read the comments on my first entry on the subject to see the debate unfettered by the censorship in the mainstream media. This is perhaps my favourite comment:
From Janesmith101
All comments regarding Sylvain, Al-Hilli and a possible nuclear link are being removed from sites I’ve posted on in The Guardian, Independent and Huffpo UK.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/sep/09/alps-killer-motive-baffles-police
Here was my comment, I added as a point of fact it was completely speculative and an unproven theory in a later comment, also removed.
Sylvain Mollier, the ‘passing’ cyclist, was in fact a nuclear metallurgist who worked for a french nuclear company called Cezus (a subsidiary of Areva). Cezus fabricates and processes zirconium into metal and nuclear grade zircoaloy for nuclear fuel assemblies – it also has other applications in aerospace such as components and ceramics for missiles and satellites. Mr Al-Hilli was also a skilled aerospace engineer, on what looks to be his first camping holiday.
What is the probability that two highly skilled engineers managed be at the same remote place, at the same time, yet still managed to end up dead as a result of what looks to be a military style assasination?
As someone else pointed out in The Independent comments, the deceased were found by a ‘retired’ RAF officer who, we assume, will recieve perpetual anonymity as a witness. If the police are looking for a motive, try an intercepted rendevous by a security service fixated on denying a hostile power illicit nuclear technology.
http://wrmea.org/component/content/article/162-1995-june/7823-israel-bombs-iraqs-osirak-nuclear-research-facility.html
The Huffington Post UK reports that this wasn’t the family’s first trip to the camp site. An earlier report had asked other camp site visitors whether they had seen the family before and they had replied they hadn’t. If this isn’t wasn’t the first visit by Al-Hilli, it might slightly increase the odds that he knew or had met Mollier before, this being the last in a series of rendevous of a transactional nature. Mollier lived and worked locally.
Again, I’m not sure of the truth of these reports, there is some very sloppy journalism, as there is always seems to be. I’ve read for example Mollier’s company Cevus descirbed as a steel firm something which it is patently not, but perhaps it may have been a detail lost in translation.
An interesting comment summing up some of the strange coincidences, at least, surrounding these murders. My other favourite comment calls me a “macchiavellian shill”.
I have only one thought of my own I want to add at the minute. Al-Hilli was a Shia muslim and had been on pilgrimage to Qoms in Iran. What if it is indeed true that he was in possession of no especial nuclear or defence secrets to pass on to the Iranians, but the Israelis thought that he was? The Israeli programme of assassination of scientists involved in Iran’s nuclear programme is a definite fact. It makes as much sense as anything else at the moment, as a possibility.
I am not saying that is what happened. But the directions in which the mainstream media is being so strenuously pointed by official sources, like the massacre of an entire family over an inheritance, are certainly no more inherently probable. Certainly as we are now told all the shots were from one gun, for the assassin to get each victim in the head with none of them being able to escape, indicates real proficiency with the weapon and a very high level of training.
@Ferret
I posted very early on and I think it must have been lost in the chaff as I don´t remeber anyone picking up on it:
something along the lines of the 7 year old being held hostage and used as bargaining power by the killers; first she was held, then pistol wipped, then shot upper right shoulder (non life threateening). This escalation was just what was required for the target group to give up what ever they had that the killer wanted, even if it was just for them to be of the belief that they would all be spared, then two shooters would very easily be able to do the necessary in a very short space of time.
Strangely prophetic, indeed…
Just like that DA Notice…
@Roland
Yes I remember now… at the time I didn’t really believe it but am much more inclined that way now… clearly I’ve plagarised your idea and had forgotten!! (My wife often accuses me of this!!)
I think it’s possible that the seven year-old was the first one shot – out of the car exploring and happened on the ambush? Possible then she was used to control those in the car.
I’m of the view there had to be more than one shooter too.
At the same time, if you were in the back of a car, the doors were locked and you couldn’t open them, there’s at least one man with a gun outside and your close relative the driver gets shot, what would you do? Freeze in terror, scream, duck down, reach over to clutch the stricken driver…any or all of those…whilst the shooter(s) turns his gun towards the back seats.
If there were no shots to their bodies and only to their heads I’d wonder how the hell one or several shooters managed that though.
Remember the “Essex Boys” shootings years ago? Three of them in a 4×4 were shot dead in the car. Three big, hairy doormen/gangster types…I think the shooter was in the car with that lot, but I’m off to refresh my memory on that out of curiosity.
I have read that the British like to do their dirty work in France. Any truth in that?
So… sorry Roland for inadvertently nicking your idea and yes, good theory!
I don’t know much about these things but is it really possible to accurately shoot people through strengthened glass what with the reflection and so on?
Especially as they would be all over the place.
Roland’s theory sounds the most feasible to me unless the shooter was already in the car.
To follow on from my last comment…
Time may be a critical issue – if the al-Hillis are there for a while, waiting, and Zainab gets out to stretch her legs, comes across the ambusher(s), then she is shot and kept by the ambusher(s) who tell the al-Hillis to stay in the car, or else, while they wait for cyclist to turn up so they can kill them all.
If it is one attacker he may have beaten Zainab in order to immobilise her and be free to kill the others unhindered.
@Dopey
I’m thinking of those films (eg pulp fiction) where the shooters whip out the guns and say “right, nobody move a f-ing muscle…” – and everyone freezes. Esp if someone gets shot… it increases the fear.
@Kathy
No idea about France, sorry.
Re the glass, I read here that the windscreen may have deflected bullets as it’s thickened but the side windows are no problem for a 7.65mm.
@Dopey
I in no doubt that the shooters pistols would ahve been suppressed so the first hit in the car would be shot mutiple times and would be pretty much dead within one or two seconds. I beleive the headshots were done after all dead took their initial body shots; anyone not the first targeted would not hear the tell tale full explosive sound of any of the gunshots and probably would only realise shots were being fired right at the point that the gunmen had goten round to them and the rounds were entering their body, and thus absolutely no time for any reaction except to die, and die relatively quickly too.
@ Ferret
Thanks for the clarification.
@Kathy and Ferret
I don´t think the windscreen is a factor.
I would have absolutely no confidence in standing behind a car windscreen and expect to survive a shooter deliberatly targeting my body core and expect them to miss at very close range.
@CD
I think SM and SAH are already in a meeting in the car when the shooting goes down. BM is on lookout duty for SAH. (Failed miserably – probably got an Uzi in the face to keep him quiet.)
Not sure how they manage to take Zainab hostage… maybe she was outside the car for a pee as you say, or to make room for SM, or deliberately so she didn’t overhear anything.
They tell everyone to shut up and not move a f—ing muscle (a la Michael Caine) and to hand over the info or else Z gets it. They don’t cooperate, so they hit Z. They still don’t, so they shoot her in the shoulder. Then they cooperate and hand over the goods. Then they shoot the three adults. Disarm BM, and scarper.
There were more reports when the French were in charge but since they teamed up with the British, not a whisper despite the British usually give more away than the French. Not a mention of the children and whether Zainab has given any more information.
* The killers tell everyone to shut up and not move a f—ing muscle (a la Michael Caine) and to hand over the info or else Z gets it. The Al Hilli’s and SM don’t cooperate, so the killers hit Z. SAH & co still don’t cooperate, so the killers shoot Z in the shoulder. Then SAH & co cooperate and hand over the goods. Then the killers shoot the three adults. Disarm BM, and scarper.
@ roland
Yes I reckon so too. They surely must have been shot in the bodies first throught the glass, then shot in the head once the glass was broken and they were already wounded.
I’m leaning towards them having hold of the girl too.
@Roland
I would have absolutely no confidence in standing behind a car windscreen and expect to survive a shooter deliberatly targeting my body core and expect them to miss at very close range.
I would agree with that. I think it was discussed on this thread in terms of accurate head shots, which would be more difficult due to deflection (and possibly loss of power through the thicker glass). But I’m not a ballistics expert so don’t really know. And like you I would not hide behind a windscreen to escape a shooter!
@ kathy 27 Sep, 2012 – 11:20 pm
There was speculation in print that Zainab might suffer blindness or sight loss following her injuries. I don’t know if there is any factual basis for this or if it was a way of implying that she can’t identify anyone from photographs – ie BM or SM or anyone else.
Re this purported DA notice;
===============================================
Drudge
Defence Advisory Notice is in effect here
06.09.2012 14:41
Today at 0750 we received information that a Defence Advisory Notice or ‘D Notice’ was in effect with regard to certain facts about this story.
No mention of his links to the Security Services
No mention of his links to Iran
No mention of his links to nuclear weapons research
No speculation regarding Israel involvement in the killing
==========================================
Item 4 is utterly absurd
Either 1) Israel wan’t involved, in which case speculation about Israel’s involvement isn’t a threat to anything, or
2) Israel was involved, but the wording doesn’t prevent a well sourced (i.e. not speculation) artcile being published.
D’oh!
@ferret I agree the bad guys got away with the goods.
@Dopey
Yes I reckon so too. They surely must have been shot in the bodies first throught the glass, then shot in the head once the glass was broken and they were already wounded.
Now you’ve got me thinking!
What about 3 shooters?
One has gun on Z’s head.
One has gun on (say) Mrs AH’s head.
One has gun on everyone else.
They threaten Z. And Mrs AH. (Telling no one to move.)
No cooperation, so they shoot Mrs AH.
Gunman #2 moves on to Mrs AH’s mother, gun to head.
Repeat performance.
No cooperation = shot in head.
Ultimately all are dead save SAH and Z (and small Z).
Big Z is shot in shoulder to persuade SAH to “help”.
After he does so, he is himself shot in the head.
No one needs to be shot in the body.
No one has a chance to take evasive action.
It’s all over in minutes.
@ CD
Yes, I found it strange also that not long after she came out of the life-threatening coma, she was suddenly pronounced fit enough to travel to UK and at very short notice.
@Bert P
You are absolutely correct – you’ve hit the nail on the head!!
2) Israel was involved, but the wording doesn’t prevent a well sourced (i.e. not speculation) artcile being published.
The Telegraph DOES publish a QUOTE from someone, pointing at Mossad. As it’s a direct quote, it’s not “speculation”.
It’s the exception which proves the rule.
Thank you for reminding me of this.
When I get a chance, I’ll post a link.
@Ferret
Minutes I would say is too long a time frame; my best guess would be all the shooting done and dusted with 5 to 10 seconds max
There didn’t need to be one. Just the atmosphere of one.
@ roland
yep, if they just turned up and started immediately firing. If there was any “negotiation” going on it could have taken longer before the shootings. I think that’s what Ferret meant.
@Drew
(If you’re still around)
I may be way off the mark, or this may have been suggested before; but what do poeple think about all these satellites recently falling to earth?
Was there more than one? I heard of a “meteor” breaking up in the atmosphere that clearly was anything BUT a meteor!
I posted about this some time back, saying I think it was a satellite brought down on purpose.
SAH’s “friend” Gary Aked works for ATK who have a satellite which can dock with any satellite and give it an impulse, either to extend its life after its run out of fuel, or to “de-orbit” it, as they say in the jargon.
SAH is known to have worked on satellites at SSTL, his most recent employer, and probably at other places too (search for eg James Barnett in this thread or online).
Is there a link to the Al-Hilli hit?
Quite possibly, as you may have guessed from the above! SAH may have had codes or knowledge to control (or crack into) these “de-orbiting” satellites and these may have fallen into the “wrong” hands, and been used. (Interpret “wrong” here in any way you see fit…)