My post on the shootings in France has brought tens of thousands of people to this site – but not to read my dull contribution. People are coming to read the comments from other readers.
Today’s development of the bomb squad descending on the al-Hilli house does not in itself worry me enormously. You may recall the massive terror scare that was ramped up when some Muslim students in Manchester were found to own a bag of sugar.
In fact we have the opposite phenomenon today, with the spook-fed “security correspondents” on TV lining up to tell us it is probably just everyday household stuff. This deviation from the standard Islamophobic “Muslims = bombs” narrative is so startling it makes me wonder why the “move along, nothing to see here” line is being taken so quickly.
My own security services sources insist that al-Hilli was not a person of current interest to the UK intelligence agencies and was not involved in anything clandestine. I have no reason to disbelieve them. On the other hand, the limited and confusing information in the media is almost entirely from official sources. I find it very strange indeed how little attention has been paid to the murdered French cyclist, and how easily it is presumed he was just a passerby. Surely it is as likely he was the intended victim and the al-Hillis the accidental witnesses?
Please do read the comments on my first entry on the subject to see the debate unfettered by the censorship in the mainstream media. This is perhaps my favourite comment:
From Janesmith101
All comments regarding Sylvain, Al-Hilli and a possible nuclear link are being removed from sites I’ve posted on in The Guardian, Independent and Huffpo UK.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/sep/09/alps-killer-motive-baffles-police
Here was my comment, I added as a point of fact it was completely speculative and an unproven theory in a later comment, also removed.
Sylvain Mollier, the ‘passing’ cyclist, was in fact a nuclear metallurgist who worked for a french nuclear company called Cezus (a subsidiary of Areva). Cezus fabricates and processes zirconium into metal and nuclear grade zircoaloy for nuclear fuel assemblies – it also has other applications in aerospace such as components and ceramics for missiles and satellites. Mr Al-Hilli was also a skilled aerospace engineer, on what looks to be his first camping holiday.
What is the probability that two highly skilled engineers managed be at the same remote place, at the same time, yet still managed to end up dead as a result of what looks to be a military style assasination?
As someone else pointed out in The Independent comments, the deceased were found by a ‘retired’ RAF officer who, we assume, will recieve perpetual anonymity as a witness. If the police are looking for a motive, try an intercepted rendevous by a security service fixated on denying a hostile power illicit nuclear technology.
http://wrmea.org/component/content/article/162-1995-june/7823-israel-bombs-iraqs-osirak-nuclear-research-facility.html
The Huffington Post UK reports that this wasn’t the family’s first trip to the camp site. An earlier report had asked other camp site visitors whether they had seen the family before and they had replied they hadn’t. If this isn’t wasn’t the first visit by Al-Hilli, it might slightly increase the odds that he knew or had met Mollier before, this being the last in a series of rendevous of a transactional nature. Mollier lived and worked locally.
Again, I’m not sure of the truth of these reports, there is some very sloppy journalism, as there is always seems to be. I’ve read for example Mollier’s company Cevus descirbed as a steel firm something which it is patently not, but perhaps it may have been a detail lost in translation.
An interesting comment summing up some of the strange coincidences, at least, surrounding these murders. My other favourite comment calls me a “macchiavellian shill”.
I have only one thought of my own I want to add at the minute. Al-Hilli was a Shia muslim and had been on pilgrimage to Qoms in Iran. What if it is indeed true that he was in possession of no especial nuclear or defence secrets to pass on to the Iranians, but the Israelis thought that he was? The Israeli programme of assassination of scientists involved in Iran’s nuclear programme is a definite fact. It makes as much sense as anything else at the moment, as a possibility.
I am not saying that is what happened. But the directions in which the mainstream media is being so strenuously pointed by official sources, like the massacre of an entire family over an inheritance, are certainly no more inherently probable. Certainly as we are now told all the shots were from one gun, for the assassin to get each victim in the head with none of them being able to escape, indicates real proficiency with the weapon and a very high level of training.
@ kenneth
presumably yep.
Isnt Oaken Road the address of his accountant? I think that is why its on the records (have not checked but seem to remember this coming up before).
I cannot find the relevant article, but I clearly remember an article in which Gary Aked was quoted as saying that he had last physically met SAH three years ago. On that occasion, he (Aked) gave Ikbal AH driving lessons, because she wasn’t used to driving on the right-hand side. SAH had just bought his wife a SEAT car.
I wonder what happened to that SEAT. Did the family sell it because Ikbal didn’t like driving?
Well no Kenneth. Have you listened to the BBC clip ?
It says it was the Mother who left the house to Saad her favourite son ….. not both sons.
I can’t help you there Peter, I have not read about that anywhere.
I have said before, the two Al Hilli brothers are so physically different & in character .
I wonder if they were brought up as brothers but are in fact cousins,Zaid being brought to the UK for safety reasons after his real parents were killed by the Saddam regime…….just as the two girls are to be brought up without their parents.
Again could this be something which only came to light after the father died ?
@Katie
I think unlikely. They arrived in London in 1971, one year after their older cousin Ali who now lives in Melbourne. Ali’s father barely escaped in 1970 after being badly attacked. Ali, Zaid and Saad went to the same school in Pimlico and the families lived near each other in SW London.
CD.
I’m sure there were other relatives with children in Iraq at that time …or even a friends child. If that child were orphaned why would it be so odd for Saad as friend or relative to offer to take the child to safety ?
I think we are looking at a large & extended family……has it also occurred to you, that we have only found young Hilli’s , where are the older ones ?
Edit, not Saad, Kadhim the father..
@Kenneth
Still haven’t answered a simple question yet, I see…
If you think the answer would be off-topic and are claiming to have a problem with posting off-topic issues, then perhaps you could explain why posted your “mid-east peace plan solution” in the first place? Did the off-topic-ness of it not bother you at that point? Or do you just have problem with it now. Hmmmm???
Also, you still haven’t answered what you meant by “your kind”? Remember, you posted that little charmer? Perhaps you had a memory lapse about that one, too?
You’ve been asked by both me and Felix about that, but haven’t replied.
Ho hum…
So… still, can’t answer a simple question…
@Bilbo
Thanks for the response, I assume it was to me?
but who are you to dismiss it out of hand? remember we should all try and keep focus ?
I’m not saying the research isn’t valid, it clearly took a lot of hard work and thinking to put it together, so kudos to Bluebird.
What I’m saying I think the conclusion yesterday (internal Iraqi sectarian killing) was bogus and the hoopla about it was a smokescreen. Just my opinion. And many here are valid researchers but some are not, and will attempt to steer things.
Interestingly (and perhaps tellingly) I can’t recall a single person responding to Trowbridge’s reasoned refutation, in any way whatsoever. Please correct me if I’m wrong!
oh, kenneth sorensen part of the katie club of hypocrisy i see.
You got it
same aggression levels too.
Yeah, I’m alergic to BS
who knows why the moderator hasn’t cracked down on you two yet. if he thinks anders is bad then….. i think he’s being very naive. imo.
I agree
anyway do stop using bold, you’re not that important.
I haven’t been using bold, that’s actually Kenneth’s signature trick. I use emphasis to quote other posts, or to emphasise a word in a sentence that otherwise would not make sense.
In 1971 Saad was 11, Zaid was 13 and Ali was 16/17. I think it would have come up if Zaid was a fostered relative rather than Kadhim and Fasiha al-Hilli’s son. In any case I’m not sure that it’s relevant to what happened. I know about extended families – out to third cousins and further. One gathering of relations (to one grandparent) came to 200 individuals.
@Ricki
Ferret – Thanks mate, yes but could have been programmed remotely at anytime (even from a smart phone or from the PC he had with him, the neighbour mentioned he had sent him an email) I very much doubt there is much you can do about it in Space once its set into action!
You could have a point there. I thought that’s what you might be getting at… perhaps they wanted the “deactivate” code to stop the satellite falling, hence the Zainab hostage scenario? Perhaps he didn’t give it to them?
@Ferret – please concentrate less on Katie and Kenneth. Phew, a Middle East peace plan, condensed into a couple of paragraphs? If you can have a sensible discussion about it, fair enough, but it is O/T, and if someone doesn’t wish to have that conversation, please stop asking.
@Dopey
Funnily enough for this year a friend of mine, if searched by his name on 192.com, shows only his name as living at the property. A search on the wife’s name however shows him as also at the property. In a previous year they were both shown as living next door, with their next door neighbours (which certainly wan’t the case) , so 192.com does have its eccentricities.
OK, thanks, I didn’t realised it behaved that way. Odd…
Interesting you say they arrived in 71 , CD, that would tally with what I originally thought about Saad being a child when they arrived.
@Jon
You allowed Kenneth to post an anti-Israel rant in one or two short paras, which I am referring to as his mid-east peace plan, in which he stated that he thought all jews should be peacefully extracted from israel and sent to america, but you won’t allow him to post how he thinks it should be done, in an equally few short paras???
And you allow him to refer to me as “your kind” without explanation???
And I may not try to get an answer out of him, nor point out that he refuses to answer straight questions?
So he can do a “drive-by” and get away with it, is that right?
Meanwhile, Katie continues her usual forum slide, about which you say nothing.
Where exactly is this morning’s conversation going, guys?
What kind of moderation are you doing, Jon?
Bit one-sided, IMO.
Kathy, good morning.
There are several Ali’s it seems & I have not followed them at all,so can’t make comment.
All I’ve seen is what Ferret posted about the ‘torture’ of Saad’s uncle.
Ferret, it was very much in support of you. I find our kenny especially very aggressive towards you, absolutely without need. Yet somehow his aggression is different to Anders ? Bunkum. very disappointed that the moderator has not chosen to be moderate. defeats the point. the bold thing was aimed at our friend kenny too – clearly a few ego problems there. Anyway, for what it’s worth i think Trow summed it up excellently but there is now an incredible amount of flotsam and jetsam on this blog – i hope people can see it for what it is. It has been clear as day as it developed. my favourite is this absurd request for proof of a dnotice…seriously, that’s the best counter argument ?
A short essay about Arabic names and the understanding for searching family links of Arab people. There has been a post before, but I will try to explain this a little bit more specific because there seems to be some confusion here.
Basically an Arab male name is connected by:
1. Given name, 2. given name of father, 3. given name of grandfather, 4. given name of grandgrandfather, 5. etc., 6. where does the family come from
#1 is mandatory.
#2-#6 are randomly chosen by that person.
That borught confusion into European and American registries because they could not allow the same person using 4 or 5 different names randomly. Therefore they had to chose a surname when they immigrated into the Western world
Women usually don’t take the names of their husbands when they are married but they keep their old names. That has also changed recently amongst the emigrants who came Europe and USA. However, in the Arab world the married women usually are keeping their girlnames. In Europe that might lead to confusion because the same woman could have a European document where she got the surname of her husband while in an most Arab documents she still got her girlname as that is apparently usual there.
I’ll try to explain that in the case of Saddam Hussein:
His official name in Arab documents is Saddam Hussein abd-el-Majid at-Tikriti
Well, you can see:
“Saddam” is his given name
“Hussein” was the given name of his father
“Abd-el-Majid” was the given name of his grandfather
“at-Tikriti” or “al-tikriti” is either the town where the family comes from or the name of their tribe.
Conclusion:
Saddam called himself: Saddam Hussein.
He chose his given name and the name of his father as his official name in public.
He could have called himself even “Saddam abd-el-Majid” or even “Saddam at Tikriti” as well. It would be the same person and everything mentioned here would be legit in Arab countries.
For searching such a construction is on one hand difficult, on the other hand it has positive effects. It is difficult because you never know there complete namens and you don’t know what part of their names they had left out. However, if you know the real name, then it is very easy to find sisters, cousins, and other relatives and even the whole original tribe.
However, it is pretty hard searching for family links of Arab names who were registered in Europe simply because in Europe married women often got the names of their husbands at registration and the tribe and family got destroyed then.
So let’s have a lok at our case:
Saad al-Hilli could have called himself as well:
“Saad Khadim al-Hilli” or even simply “Saad Khadim”
Both is legit in the Arab world. Officially the family chose the name Saad al-Hilli.
His wife Iqbal would still be called Iqbal al-Saffar in the Arab world and in Arab documents. However, since they lived in Europe, she took the name Iqbal al-Hilli and that destroys her family and tribe links. In the Arab world she would still have been Iqbal al-Saffar, whether or not she was married.
The same is a matter fo fact for her mother who is cited with two names. One is her real name and one is the artificial name created by European registries as she was married.
Conclusion:
If you search the web for Saad al-Hilli it is completely legit to search for Saad Khadim as well. It could easily be the case and totally legit that he called himself Saad Khadim on the web, too. The problem might be that there are more than one guys whose given name was Saad and whose father’s or grandfather’s name was Khadim.
I found one link that could perhaps link to Saad Khadim (scroll down to the author’s list)
http://www.iacenter.org/folder01/ctglil.htm
However, Saad Khadim might get used by dozens of Iraqis.
Another example.
Balsam al-Hilli is named in some press releases:
Balsam Hashim al-Hilli.
That means that the given name of her father was Hashim.
Ali al-Hilli is also called on some weblinks (biography):
Ali Hashim al-Hilli
That means that his father’s given name was Hashim.
So you can conclude (if we wouldn’t know as per now) that they are brother and sister (or half brother and half sister) since names of mothers are never mentioned in Arab names.
It would be interesting to know the complete name of Saad’s father Khadim al-Hilli. If we knew the name of his father then we could perhaps link more family members.
One ancestor of the al-Hilli family was Sheikh Mohammad Rida, apparently a grandfather. This might likely be the father of Khadim if we found out if Khadim’s complete name would have been Khadim Muhhammad al-Hilli (or Khadim M. al-Hilli). I simply don’t know.
However, Sheikh Muhammad Rida would be an extremely hot link since he was the first radical Islamic cleric and actually the clerical creator of the antizionist islamism in the Arab world during the pre-WW2 times who apparently united with Adolf Hitler in the goal to destroy the Jewish completely. They did even found and train a Muslim SS-unit in Iraq and Lebanon. So if he really were the grandfather, then that find would be hot.
Does anybody know the complete name of Khadim al Hilli?
Ferret, I am trying to keep the board on topic, thankfully with some success of late. Do go ahead and discuss ME peace, that’s fine, but please stop talking about who here is a fraud, who is a “drive by”, who is “forum sliding” – it is counterproductive. It becomes a great deal more disruptive than the people you’re complaining about.
Here’s what Trowbridge wrote yesterday
Trowbridge H. Ford
27 Sep, 2012 – 7:18 pm
Can someone explain dragging the Allawis into the cast of characters in this conspiracy when Ayad Allawi had little to do with the setting up of Saddam’s ouster?
The real troublemaker was Ahmed Chalabi, president of the Iraqi National Congress, who cooked up all the lies about what Saddam was up to, thanks particularly to the claims by the notorious Curveball.
Does anyone still think this was an Iraqi sectarian killing, as was postulated yesterday, and if so what’s your response to Trowbridge?
Or has this been dropped as an active theory?
@ katie
ok, probably the wrong Ali then.
@ jon
Please delete my post at 11.34
[Mod/Jon: done]
@Bilbo
Thanks for that – totally misread your post!
🙂
@Jon
I understand, but don’t you understand you are protecting disinformationalists by moderating in this way? That’s what seems so one-sided about it.
@Ferret 28 Sep, 2012 – 11:45 am
As previously responded to THF…
@ Trowbridge H. Ford 27 Sep, 2012 – 7:18 pm
It’s background.
Allawi was the person who conveyed the supposed Iraqi 45mins WMD strike capability to UK and US ‘intelligence’. He survived an early assassination attempt in 1978 in Kingston on Thames after he fell out with Saddam for whom he had done some dirty intelligence work. His second wife and children still live in Surrey.
There is a sizable ex-pat Iraqi community in Surrey and around Kingston on Thames. The Al-Hillis didn’t move there until around 1990. Some of the community, including Allawi and the Al-Hillis, were dispossessed by the Ba’athist regime and may have hoped to regain family property and businesses once Saddam was ousted.
I have never proposed it was an Iraqi killing. However, the long-term interest of security services with this community cannot be disputed, and it is very possible this came down to shifting allegiances, national interests and personal/family interests over a thirty year period up to and including Gulf War 2.
Having listened to the BBC clip, it seemed a fair summary to me (in which even the possibility of a Mossad hit was mooted), except for two strange omissions: 1. Sylvain Mollier didn’t really figure in there, nor the possibility that he might have been the primary target.
2. I found it quite odd that Gary Aked inisted how unlikely it would have been for SAH to work on defence-related contracts, that SAH would not have wanted to do so because of the “politics” involved. I am friends with a few self-employed engineering contractors just like SAH here in Germany, and they all *love* defence projects because this is the *only” industry in which money literally is not an object. Whatever they need in terms of resources, they get, and they can almost charge as much as they want. I have never heard of “politics” playing any role in such projects, either. Certainly, politics will play a huge role at the top management level, but we are talking about somebody at bottom of the food chain, a contractor who is only hired after all the politics have been dealt with, the project is underway and needs to be completed asap, whatever the cost. I cannot imagine that things are all that different in the UK.
Likewise, Aked’s argument that SAH *could* not have worked on defence projects because of his iraqi roots is ridiculous. As a british passport-holder, he would have been just as eligible as anybody else, at least in theory.
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/AboutDefence/WhatWeDo/SecurityandIntelligence/DVA/TheVettingProcess.htm
@ferret
I never said that it was an Iraqi sectarian killing. It is simply exciting to find out how deeply (at least part of) the Al-Hilli family (and likely (parts of) the Al-Saffar family) were connected with Hezbollah.
They were member sin Hezbollah organisations, they are members of the DAWA party in Iraq, they made speeches confirming they are Hezbollah. Some of them were extremely pro-American before the second Iraq war (see link of a forum entyr of Ali Hashim al-Hilli I posted) because they main goal (also the main goal of shia Hezbollah and Iran) was to get rid of Saddam and into power of Iraq and the Americans were their allies. On the other hand, Waled al-Hilli was a radical islamist already in his London times when he signed a radical antizionist letter from a radical cleric (link posted yesterday).
Hussein al Hilli is part and representative of a Hezbollah organisation in London.
The Al-Saffar family has deep links to Hezbollah as well. They have even high Hezbollah leaders in Saudi Arabia as well as in Lebanon.
Note: Sweden and the UK are the main Hezbollah centres in Europe. Most recent Hezbollah terror attacks (latest one was the bombing in Bulgaria) was organised by the Swedish Hezbollah organisation due to Israel media. The Al-Saffars are highly ranked Hezbollah members. We don’t know whether the Swedish Al-Saffars were high ranked as well, but there are high ranked Al-Saffar Hezbollah members in Lebanon, Syria, Bahrein and Saudi Arabia, one of them famous Zeinab al-Saffar “I am a woman from Hezbolla and I am proud of it”.
There is no doubt that Hezbolla took over the power in Iraq with the help of the UK and the USA. Al Maliki is Hezbollah (trained in Syria and Iran with great contacts to Assad and Ajatollah Khameini. Then we have Ayed Allawi (a non-cleric Hezbollah) whom I link as a friend of the al-Hillie family (most likely a friend of Khadim and Hashim al Hilli because their sons would have been to young for him).
With Allawi we have already confirmed his links to CIA and MI6 (and, according to him, with 13 more intelligence services around the world).
Now we have Hezbollah (totally confirmed) and intelligence services (Allawi) both very close to both the al-Hilli and the al-Saffar families. We have the foreign intelligence centre of Hezbollah in Sweden and in London. Perhaps coincidence?
And we have perhaps Sheikh Muhammed Rida (at this date this is just a blatant conspiracy of mine based on an internet biography) as the father of Khadim and Hashim.
That’s quite a lot to link at least parts of both families strongly to Hezbollah.
What if there were Hezbollah plus intelligence services?
There are three reasons for the killings left:
1. Hezbollah found out that some of their members knew quite a lot about their organisation and that they did forward information to enemies (other intelligence services).
2. Intelligence services detected that one certain person planned to support Hezbollah with WMD or with other techniques that would be a threat to Israel or other western countries.
3. Both Hezbollah and western intelligence services detected that a certain person (or more) were working for both sides.
OK !
FIRST the “postman”. He says he’s beendoin the ro for 7 years….but “thought” that Mr Al Hillihad only been there 3 years.
SECOND the pstman also didn’t “know” of Mrs Al Hilli.
And THIRD. Gary Aked said he “knew of others to”.
Where are “the others”.
I know of AMS …and the main contactor “IR35” one.
But “the others” are a bit key.
…because I doubt they are “U.K. reg” ones.
I have rev searh by name, fathers name, friends name, accountant name…and been thrgh ALL he co’ the acc is reg’d to…and there is NOTHING.
So where are they !!! ????
…. and of course I forgot to mention something that I read on this board some days ago (is it confirmed?) that Saad al Hilli should have told a friend that he should hear the interiview of Assange with Hezbollah leader Nasrallah.
Hezbollah, Hezbollah, Hezbollah, Hezbollah ……
All and any research regarding the Al-Hilli and the Al-Saffar families are leading us into top positions of Hezbollah and even into the Iraqi government (DAWA).
…and excuse the “spelling”.
Keyboard a bit dodgy..and non English setup!