My post on the shootings in France has brought tens of thousands of people to this site – but not to read my dull contribution. People are coming to read the comments from other readers.
Today’s development of the bomb squad descending on the al-Hilli house does not in itself worry me enormously. You may recall the massive terror scare that was ramped up when some Muslim students in Manchester were found to own a bag of sugar.
In fact we have the opposite phenomenon today, with the spook-fed “security correspondents” on TV lining up to tell us it is probably just everyday household stuff. This deviation from the standard Islamophobic “Muslims = bombs” narrative is so startling it makes me wonder why the “move along, nothing to see here” line is being taken so quickly.
My own security services sources insist that al-Hilli was not a person of current interest to the UK intelligence agencies and was not involved in anything clandestine. I have no reason to disbelieve them. On the other hand, the limited and confusing information in the media is almost entirely from official sources. I find it very strange indeed how little attention has been paid to the murdered French cyclist, and how easily it is presumed he was just a passerby. Surely it is as likely he was the intended victim and the al-Hillis the accidental witnesses?
Please do read the comments on my first entry on the subject to see the debate unfettered by the censorship in the mainstream media. This is perhaps my favourite comment:
From Janesmith101
All comments regarding Sylvain, Al-Hilli and a possible nuclear link are being removed from sites I’ve posted on in The Guardian, Independent and Huffpo UK.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/sep/09/alps-killer-motive-baffles-police
Here was my comment, I added as a point of fact it was completely speculative and an unproven theory in a later comment, also removed.
Sylvain Mollier, the ‘passing’ cyclist, was in fact a nuclear metallurgist who worked for a french nuclear company called Cezus (a subsidiary of Areva). Cezus fabricates and processes zirconium into metal and nuclear grade zircoaloy for nuclear fuel assemblies – it also has other applications in aerospace such as components and ceramics for missiles and satellites. Mr Al-Hilli was also a skilled aerospace engineer, on what looks to be his first camping holiday.
What is the probability that two highly skilled engineers managed be at the same remote place, at the same time, yet still managed to end up dead as a result of what looks to be a military style assasination?
As someone else pointed out in The Independent comments, the deceased were found by a ‘retired’ RAF officer who, we assume, will recieve perpetual anonymity as a witness. If the police are looking for a motive, try an intercepted rendevous by a security service fixated on denying a hostile power illicit nuclear technology.
http://wrmea.org/component/content/article/162-1995-june/7823-israel-bombs-iraqs-osirak-nuclear-research-facility.html
The Huffington Post UK reports that this wasn’t the family’s first trip to the camp site. An earlier report had asked other camp site visitors whether they had seen the family before and they had replied they hadn’t. If this isn’t wasn’t the first visit by Al-Hilli, it might slightly increase the odds that he knew or had met Mollier before, this being the last in a series of rendevous of a transactional nature. Mollier lived and worked locally.
Again, I’m not sure of the truth of these reports, there is some very sloppy journalism, as there is always seems to be. I’ve read for example Mollier’s company Cevus descirbed as a steel firm something which it is patently not, but perhaps it may have been a detail lost in translation.
An interesting comment summing up some of the strange coincidences, at least, surrounding these murders. My other favourite comment calls me a “macchiavellian shill”.
I have only one thought of my own I want to add at the minute. Al-Hilli was a Shia muslim and had been on pilgrimage to Qoms in Iran. What if it is indeed true that he was in possession of no especial nuclear or defence secrets to pass on to the Iranians, but the Israelis thought that he was? The Israeli programme of assassination of scientists involved in Iran’s nuclear programme is a definite fact. It makes as much sense as anything else at the moment, as a possibility.
I am not saying that is what happened. But the directions in which the mainstream media is being so strenuously pointed by official sources, like the massacre of an entire family over an inheritance, are certainly no more inherently probable. Certainly as we are now told all the shots were from one gun, for the assassin to get each victim in the head with none of them being able to escape, indicates real proficiency with the weapon and a very high level of training.
I think he posted a link to the interview (from Assanges program on RT) on the message board, the same message board that he was posting anti Israeli rants on!
Most of those who knew the family well, however, insist Saad, who came to the UK in the 1970s with his parents when his father fell out with Saddam Hussein’s Ba’ath party and attended Pimlico Comprehensive, was westernised and highly-respected within the community. In addition to owning SH Tech, he worked on a freelance basis for Satellite Technology Company in Guildford. Friends say he was the kind of man who would come to their aid at any time of the day or night and that Iqbal would often host dinners where she would serve up traditional food.
http://www.scotsman.com/scotland-on-sunday/scotland/the-task-of-unravelling-the-mystery-of-who-slaughtered-the-al-hilli-family-and-why-is-proving-complex-1-2514865
@james
…and excuse the “spelling”.
Keyboard a bit dodgy..and non English setup!
*******
of course. excuse my grammar and my spelling. bad spelling is created by quick typing on the keyboard of my android mobile phone. not easy typing there, I swear. 🙂
However, I strongly believe that everybody is able to read my misspelled text (in case you want reading this).
@Ferret
You could have a point there. I thought that’s what you might be getting at… perhaps they wanted the “deactivate” code to stop the satellite falling, hence the Zainab hostage scenario? Perhaps he didn’t give it to them?
————————-
Explains the timing of the holiday and Zainab missing 1st day of school year
1st day 5th Sept
http://www.claygate.surrey.sch.uk/RunScript.asp?page=40&p=ASP\Pg40.asp
@ Bluebird
Whatever the motive(s) for the murders may have been, I think that your research clearly indicates that somebody from or close to the al-Hilli family would have had the necessary contacts enabling him to recruit members of either Hezbollah or Iraqi Intelligence to commit these murders on his behalf. To my mind, *that* is your key finding.
It makes sense to me. Looking at the detail of how these murders were committed, the method, I really cannot see Mossad, SIS or similar agencies at work there. Even Camorra murders are much, much neater and more sophisticated. However, I can easily see these murders as having been committed by some evil beardies flown in from Iraq for this purpose.
If you where any agency though wouldnt using a very unusual caliber of weapon work in your favour and take the authorities time to find and track the weapon. Im thinking of modified weapons with a larger mag but takes this caliber!
There is no way that they would plan to change the clip 3/4 times in this operation!
The two shots to the head isnt sloppy! maybe the spraying of the car happened after or was just meant for it to look sloppy!
@Peter
Disagree completely. The idea that somebody from or close to the al-Hilli family recruited to have them all killed on his behalf is laughable.
Claygate Primary:-
http://www.claygate.surrey.sch.uk/RunScript.asp?page=40&p=ASP\Pg40.asp
A query re succession law.
It’s been reported that the Claygate house was in Saad’s mother’s name and that she left it to him. Since she pre-deceased her husband would he not have had an automatic right to inherit the property (the family home) on her death, or at least part of it?
It was reported that Zaid lives in a flat rather than in the house he reportedly owns and where his son Sean O’Reilly-Hilli lives. O’Reilly’s mother is deceased.
Is there some tradition or reason that family home might be in the wife’s name?
@peter
No intelligence service has ever been selective in the ways and methods of how an enemy is being killed. They use all methods and non of the agencies have any “special” methods that are better or worse than others.
There are car bombs, airplane crashes, use of poison, use of nuclear poison, ambush shootings, drone related laser bombs, gun shots, car accidents, and even “drowning suicides” in bath tubs related to intelligence services. They are using always those methods that are most feasable and most useful for them.
Of course, they are just killing individuals if they represent a future threat or if those individuals are trying to blackmail governments. Being a spy doesn’t make you a target for killings. Being a spy blackmailing or threatening a government or being a spy working for both sides is making you a target for killers.
I don’t care if that was Hezbollah, Israel, CIA or MI6. However, I simply know for quite sure that this assassination had to do with a government and national security affair and that the killers did need to obtain either documents, an information or a device before they began to kill them. Otherwise they would have simply used a car bomb.
@Blue 1:12pm
Too right mate! good post! plus he didnt end up with stockings on so cant have been SIS!it wouldnt have fitted his MO anyway!
I have some general comments regarding some of Bluebirds finds
I think Bluebird has done a tremendous job, but I have some comments regarding this bit:
It’s important to remember that people in the middle east never have quite understood why they should face the conseqences of attrocities carryed out in Europe. Anyone who has travelled in the middle east know that the Arabs are some of the most loveliest and hospitable people that you can come across. It dawned on me when once — while travelling with a Californian and his english girlfriend,a nd arriving just at dinnertime — we were invited in and actually — and i still view this whole episode with some disbelief — were offered the evening meal that the women in the house had just prepared for themselves! It was very nice chicken, rice and sallads.
And the Arabs in Palestine at first welcomed the Jews as is their custom. But when they started to arrive in ever greater numbers, that of cource caused friction. When they started to evict people from the land where they had grassed their heard for generations, taht caused further tension. When they eventually initiated a partition of Palestine that previosly had been more than 90 percent Arab – well imagine how the Arabs most have felt.
An it is in this context that you shall view any sympathy with people in Europe who also are opposed to Jews getting their own country. Hitler actually wrote in Mein Kampf [ATTENTION political incorrect statement coming up! ] that Jews should never have their own country because it would become a refuge for all sort of criminals, who the couldn’t be pursued and face justice, because they couldn’t be extradited. And that has been the case on numerous occasions. A lot of oligrarchs that Russia would like to persecute lives in grand villa’s in Israel. and cannot be extradited.
@Bluebird
Thanks for taking the time to spell it out for me. I understand your approach of just finding links not motives, and that’s cool.
I still can’t remember who it was who suggested it was an Iraqi-on-Iraqi hit yesterday, though clearly it wasn’t you or CD.
🙂
…. and of course I forgot to mention something that I read on this board some days ago (is it confirmed?) that Saad al Hilli should have told a friend that he should hear the interiview of Assange with Hezbollah leader Nasrallah.
Heh heh heh, I remember reading that too and had a chuckle as I would recommend it too – but that doesn’t make me a supporter of Hezbollah!
🙂
The thing is, it was a great interview, and if you haven’t seen it you really should watch it. The West likes to demonise Sheikh Nasrullah but when you see him interviewed he actually comes across like a normal human being, believe it or not. Albeit one engaged in a war with an powerful enemy. So it’s well worth the watch!
Mind you, that doesn’t mean that SAH wasn’t a Hezbollah supporter, just saying it doesn’t make him (or me) one either.
Hezbollah, Hezbollah, Hezbollah, Hezbollah…
So… re the connections to Hezbollah and the ruling party in Iraq (DAWA)… I’m sorry if I’m being dense but I just don’t pick this stuff up quickly. Is there any way you could condense the most important links down into one para for me? I’m still not clear exactly how the links work, and also whether or not it is a fair assumption that because SAH’s extended family (cousins etc) were involved, so must he (and/or his wife) be. There has been speculation (thank you Kathy) that Iraqi families would work sectarian lines but it’d be interesting to hear from Suhayl if she has any input on the subject.
And finally, just to re-presence for everyone that although SAH was reported by Gary Aked to have always had the Koran to hand, he never went to mosque at all, so far as we know, so he certainly wasn’t your archetypal religious fanatic. (Not that that’s necessarily in any way related to the links to Hez or DAWA.)
Ken..
What is ths… a travel show ?
“The Arabs I Have Met Whilst Yachting”
There is no “content” to what you are talking about. Or indeed relevance.Please find a “blog” that you’re interested in..and post away there.
Bluebird
“I simply know for quite sure that this assassination had to do with a government and national security affair”
I may….or it may not. There isn’t the facts to make that statement.
Why is it a Govt.Hit.Com ? I kep hearing “wel he worked for a Sat Co, therefore he was smuggling nukes to Iran” !!
Thoses are HUGE jumps to make !
Hezbollah was created in 1982 with the purpose of throwing Israel out of Libanon, which they succeeded in doing in 2000.
James wrote:
The Arab peninsula is characterised by deserts, so not much scope for yachts there. This is just another Fata Morgana. It looks nice, and it has an appeal to some, but there is nothing to it.
@Ricki @Roland
If you where any agency though wouldnt using a very unusual caliber of weapon work in your favour and take the authorities time to find and track the weapon. Im thinking of modified weapons with a larger mag but takes this caliber!
It’s been discussed previously that 7.65mm is the Mossad’s weapon of choice, for various reasons. And it’s not an unusual calibre, it’s standard.
There is no way that they would plan to change the clip 3/4 times in this operation!
No need to change mag with 2 or 3 shooters.
The two shots to the head isnt sloppy! maybe the spraying of the car happened after or was just meant for it to look sloppy!
Exactly.
And as Roland Teflon said last night (27 Sep, 2012 – 11:30 pm)
Minutes I would say is too long a time frame; my best guess would be all the shooting done and dusted with 5 to 10 seconds max
As per the video links Anders posted some days back, all the shots could have been fired very accurately by an expert marksman in a matter of seconds.
If you haven’t watched it you should… world record is I think 30 shots in 1 sec.
Roland, last night I was leaning more towards a drawn-out scenario with Zainab being held hostage to extract information from SAH and others, so disagreed with your statement of “5 to 10 seconds max”, however I now see it could have been BOTH, with a drawn out period of threatening/extracting info with no gunshots, followed by 5 to 10 secs of rapid gunfire after they’d got what they wanted.
Mind you, witnesses reported hearing 30 sec of automatic gunfire which would indicate a lot more shots than we’ve been led to believe by the prosecutor, and possibly a gunfight with eg BM? Pure conjecture there, but I’m trying to account for the extra length of time reported by the witnesses and the fact that if you shot 15 to 25 shots rapidly, sounding like automatic fire, it would be over in 5 to 10 seconds.
Back/forward to comment number 1
(Slightly revized)
It makes as much sense as anything else at the moment, as a possibility
Yes
We are thrashing around in the dark, mostly
But perhaps
A bit here
And one bit there
(And we will all
(In some round(and)about way)
)
Come (better) together
&
At some stage
And there will
Be
Some
‘Lightbulb moment’
Ken
“It looks nice, and it has an appeal to some, but there is nothing to it”.
Yep mucker, you said it…you certainy are !
@Kenneth
Thanks for the statement, glad you followed up. No time to reply properly at the moment unfortunately but will in due course.
Good posts Bluebird.
I see a possible link there too, if Hezbollah found out/ knew/ thought, Saad was working for the UK they would see him as a traitor to his roots.
On the surface Saad was fully integrated, he didn’t go to the mosque or even have a beard…. two of the first outward signs of radicalisation.
Add to that his type of surveillance work, that could have looked like government contracts.
Most here have said the style of the killings was a message to others.
See what I mean about “Iraqi-on-Iraqi” theories?
It would be impossible to shoot in that short space of time.the 30 seconds [ if true] could only be for the external window shots.
Spraying the car meant the killer had to walk around to do both sides. they then have to hold up heads manually to insert head shots.
To assume the targets were sitting bolt upright waiting for the head shot is pie in the sky.
BTW, I don’t think the girl was shot, I say that is a ricochet bullet.
Was her pistol whipping an accident too?
No its a dead end, to in any way connect Hezbollah to the killings.Hezbollah was set up in 1982 with the explicit purpose of throwing Israel out of Lebanon, which they succeded in doing in 2000. It’s a red herring, I’m afraid, to connect this local resistance group to the murder of this fellow shia in the woods about annecy. I would much rather point to Mossad as the likely culprits, acting deliberately so that Hezbollah would get the blame form the zealots on this forum
Inital reports say Zainab was shot 3 times. Before the story was rewritten.
I don’t believe she was Straw, the French were too quick to call her injuries that.
I’d like to know more about those injuries, could she have been on the bonnet of the car & fell , hitting her head ?
Some nice new finds regarding the Al-Saffar family tree in the UK.
I have to admit that I don’t know how far or how close they are as relatives to Iqbal and Fadwa al-Saffar. A common link could have been their grandfather or grandgrandfather. Without doubt, Ammar isn’t Iqbal’s father, however, he could likely be a cousin or perhaps even her brother (age would fit). But I have to admit that at this time I have no idea and found no confirmation.
Ammer al-Saffar (DAWA party) who lived in Middlesex, England, and helped to create the underground DAWA party in London. His son Ali G Al-Saffar is mentioned in the BBC link below. Ammer al-Saffar has exactly the same history in Iraq/UK/Iraq like it has Allawi, Walid al-Hilli and Balsam al-Hilli-Xanthi.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7348256.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7348256.stm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammar_al-Saffar
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/03/04/iraqs_elected_criminals
http://warnewsradio.org/read-more/the-disappearance-of-ammar-al-saffar/
Then there is another branch of the Al-Saffar family that caught my attention:
Salman al-Saffar (and his son Ali S. al-Saffar – not to be mixed up with Ali G. Al-Saffar!) who have a house in ….. surprise, surprise, …. KINGSTON UPON THAMES, 4 miles from the Claygate house and almost next to Allawi’s house.
Ali S. Al-Saffar, Kingston Upon Thames, Surrey, KT2 …
Kenneth, the loyalty to a ‘fellow Shia’ would normally follow, but he wasn’t a practicing Shia.
kenneth, would you really suggest that Hezbollah doesn’t exist any more since 2000 ?!?
Please tell your new ideas to Isreal …..
In fact, today Hezbollah is stronger and more dangerous than ever. The most recent Bulgaria airport bombing was done by a Hezbollah member who was living in … surprise, surprise, … SWEDEN!
And also most recently, Hezbolla blew up a carbomb and killed a high ranked Mossad agent in Spain.