My post on the shootings in France has brought tens of thousands of people to this site – but not to read my dull contribution. People are coming to read the comments from other readers.
Today’s development of the bomb squad descending on the al-Hilli house does not in itself worry me enormously. You may recall the massive terror scare that was ramped up when some Muslim students in Manchester were found to own a bag of sugar.
In fact we have the opposite phenomenon today, with the spook-fed “security correspondents” on TV lining up to tell us it is probably just everyday household stuff. This deviation from the standard Islamophobic “Muslims = bombs” narrative is so startling it makes me wonder why the “move along, nothing to see here” line is being taken so quickly.
My own security services sources insist that al-Hilli was not a person of current interest to the UK intelligence agencies and was not involved in anything clandestine. I have no reason to disbelieve them. On the other hand, the limited and confusing information in the media is almost entirely from official sources. I find it very strange indeed how little attention has been paid to the murdered French cyclist, and how easily it is presumed he was just a passerby. Surely it is as likely he was the intended victim and the al-Hillis the accidental witnesses?
Please do read the comments on my first entry on the subject to see the debate unfettered by the censorship in the mainstream media. This is perhaps my favourite comment:
From Janesmith101
All comments regarding Sylvain, Al-Hilli and a possible nuclear link are being removed from sites I’ve posted on in The Guardian, Independent and Huffpo UK.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/sep/09/alps-killer-motive-baffles-police
Here was my comment, I added as a point of fact it was completely speculative and an unproven theory in a later comment, also removed.
Sylvain Mollier, the ‘passing’ cyclist, was in fact a nuclear metallurgist who worked for a french nuclear company called Cezus (a subsidiary of Areva). Cezus fabricates and processes zirconium into metal and nuclear grade zircoaloy for nuclear fuel assemblies – it also has other applications in aerospace such as components and ceramics for missiles and satellites. Mr Al-Hilli was also a skilled aerospace engineer, on what looks to be his first camping holiday.
What is the probability that two highly skilled engineers managed be at the same remote place, at the same time, yet still managed to end up dead as a result of what looks to be a military style assasination?
As someone else pointed out in The Independent comments, the deceased were found by a ‘retired’ RAF officer who, we assume, will recieve perpetual anonymity as a witness. If the police are looking for a motive, try an intercepted rendevous by a security service fixated on denying a hostile power illicit nuclear technology.
http://wrmea.org/component/content/article/162-1995-june/7823-israel-bombs-iraqs-osirak-nuclear-research-facility.html
The Huffington Post UK reports that this wasn’t the family’s first trip to the camp site. An earlier report had asked other camp site visitors whether they had seen the family before and they had replied they hadn’t. If this isn’t wasn’t the first visit by Al-Hilli, it might slightly increase the odds that he knew or had met Mollier before, this being the last in a series of rendevous of a transactional nature. Mollier lived and worked locally.
Again, I’m not sure of the truth of these reports, there is some very sloppy journalism, as there is always seems to be. I’ve read for example Mollier’s company Cevus descirbed as a steel firm something which it is patently not, but perhaps it may have been a detail lost in translation.
An interesting comment summing up some of the strange coincidences, at least, surrounding these murders. My other favourite comment calls me a “macchiavellian shill”.
I have only one thought of my own I want to add at the minute. Al-Hilli was a Shia muslim and had been on pilgrimage to Qoms in Iran. What if it is indeed true that he was in possession of no especial nuclear or defence secrets to pass on to the Iranians, but the Israelis thought that he was? The Israeli programme of assassination of scientists involved in Iran’s nuclear programme is a definite fact. It makes as much sense as anything else at the moment, as a possibility.
I am not saying that is what happened. But the directions in which the mainstream media is being so strenuously pointed by official sources, like the massacre of an entire family over an inheritance, are certainly no more inherently probable. Certainly as we are now told all the shots were from one gun, for the assassin to get each victim in the head with none of them being able to escape, indicates real proficiency with the weapon and a very high level of training.
Slightly more precise information on “Philippe Desmazes” in the French telephone directory:
The surname gives 113 hits, of which I would discard 24 as irrelevant (place names, different spelling, immutable double name with Desmazes as second component).
Two of the remaining 89 telephone entries in all of France are near Annecy. Each is roughly 10 km from Ugine, the seat of the cyclist Sylvain Mollier’s employer CEZUS (“Ugine plant will turn Zr sponge into a Zirconium alloy semifinished product. Main operations are melting, forging, extrusion and recycling. Outputs are extruded billets, slabs and bars.”)
There are 3 hits for the precise name “Philippe Desmazes”. Of these, only one is even roughly in the right region. It is in Orliénas, a little village close to Lyon. Lyon is about 170 km (2 hours’ drive) from Ugine and Chevaline. It would be the ideal location for a photo journalist with roots in Ugine, who must fly a lot and spend a lot of time in the capital.
Based on this and the relatively large number of Annecy photos taken by the same photographer, it does not at all appear unlikely that the following two people are identical:
* Philippe D., the local Savoy man. Intending to go for a walk, he drove almost to the crime scene with two women, met the RAF cyclist, and was the first to report the crime by phone.
* Philippe Desmazes, the AFP/Getty photographer best known for a photo showing the man who supposedly killed Gaddhafi. He also took a photo of the police cars coming down the forest road from the Chevaline massacre.
It is worth stressing however, that there are so many French people who could be abbreviated “Philippe D” that even if we knew that they were both from the same village they could still be different people.
I still think the possibility that these two are the same person is very significant. IF it should be the case that the second person on the scene, and the one to set off the emergency call, was a high-profile photo journalist, then this would put everything into a completely different light. E.g. it would open the possibility that Al-Hilli was killed to prevent a whistleblowing action. In addition, the Ugine connection is also intriguing. As it is a pretty rural area, Philippe Desmazes may well have known Sylvain Mollier. It seems worthwhile to keep these *potential* connections in mind.
Flightradar24 allows you to replay the traffic. Someone could check over for any unusual traffic on the 5th or 6th in the area. Although only aircraft with an ADS-B transponder will show up – which excludes most military.
Anon,yup thought that but probably a waste of time….one more thing and I do not mean to muddy the waters so please disregard if you think but…..earlier that day the Fessenhiem nuclear plant approx 200m NNE of Annecy had a ‘fire’ alert which was then change to an accident involving steam….break in? sorry if I am adding to the confusion.
http://i3.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article86912.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/colonel-gaddafi-pic-afp-philippe-desmazes-706376664.jpg
That’s how close he was to Gaddafi at the end. Right next to him it seems.
Blue_Bear – thanks! Yes, think what it must be like for her, having lost both her mother and sister so suddenly and in such a catastrophic way, and having to support her two nieces who will be very damaged by their horrific experience. I hope she has good support from the extended family. I can’t imagine what she must be going through.
@Anon: “That’s how close he was to Gaddafi at the end. Right next to him it seems.”
Not quite. The photograph was attributed to him, but there was a controversy about it. Turns out it’s a still of a video taken by someone else on his mobile phone. Desmazes arrived later, met the person and took a photo from the mobile phone’s screen. This explains the poor quality and the weird icons near the top right corner.
The mysterious PD mentioned on CH4 News. Just a few words and no comment at all on some of the new testimony directly contradicting the crap about “ex RAF guy with nerves of steel” they were putting out just the other day.
@HA – the couple of photojournalists I know always, always carry a camera with them at all times. Even hiking they will have a compact with them. So I think we would know by now if Philippe Desmazes had been one of the first on the scene.
Was Desmazes an ’embedded’photographer with any observing forces in libya or just freelancing for AFP
Seems to me he couldn’t have been too far from the French (and others) Special Forces guiding the kill on Gaddafi.
@MontyW: You may well be right. Or maybe the police have confiscated his photos. Or maybe he knew that he was one of the targets and would definitely have been killed if he had arrived on time. There is a relatively complete account here:
http://www.ledauphine.com/haute-savoie/2012/09/11/temoignage-j-ai-eu-peur-que-l-assassin-soit-encore-sur-les-lieux
(Appears to be a teaser, with more to come in the print edition tomorrow.) He makes it clear that they feared for their lives and descended to the first houses of Chevaline as quickly as possible. (In the white Peugeot?) Maybe this totally unexpected massacre so close to home and so close to killing him was stronger than his professional reflexes?
I still think it’s worth keeping an open mind.
Montyw,
The Philippe D at the scene at least had a phone – which almost certainly means a camera included unless it was truly ancient. I would have taken pics if I was there – gruesome or not. I’d be half-expecting to die in a hail of bullets myself so I’d feel no qualms about documenting the scene as it was now, in case I was found dead 30 mins later.
So did Philippe D, RAF guy. other car occupants or anyone else take photos and if not why not? If there are such photos they are being kept private.
HA,
Ok, that says they fled the site in terror and ex-RAF man with “nerves of steel” ran away from injured girl, leaving her for dead. Totally contradicting earlier accounts.
ex-RAF guy should be under arrest in France now as the prime suspect. But for some reason, isn’t.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/an-alpine-murder-mystery–why-were-the-alhillis-shot-dead-8125292.html
How come Sylvain Mollier’s work at a company producing nuclear gear is never mentioned in any of these stories?
“IF it should be the case that the second person on the scene, and the one to set off the emergency call, was a high-profile photo journalist, then this would put everything into a completely different light. E.g. it would open the possibility that Al-Hilli was killed to prevent a whistleblowing action.” –HA
Are you suggesting it’s common or would be likely for a whistleblower to contact a photo-journalist??
“I would have taken pics if I was there”
If you’d really found a murder scene and what you though was a dead child would you really start taking pictures???
Sunflower said ” If you have the ability to assassinate the way this was done, you also have other ways and options to take the life of your targeted victim. To me the killings in France was a statement.”
And I think that is about a sure thing at the moment as we can get. And by implication this was a state sanctioned killing.
Dave,
Yes. For reasons of future possible evidence if nothing else if my phone/camera is found on my dead body.
“And I think that is about a sure thing at the moment as we can get. And by implication this was a state sanctioned killing.”
Which pretty much takes us all the way round in a circle and back to square one.
“Which pretty much takes us all the way round in a circle and back to square one.”
This is it.
We’ve got a photo of the car to pick over, and the various witness statements which all contradict each other.
The absence of any mention of either Sylvain Mollier’s job or Israel/Mossad in the MSM makes the d notice thing posted on indymedia seem genuine?
@HA
Are you suggesting it’s common or would be likely for a whistleblower to contact a photo-journalist?? A guy who’s more at home in a war zone?? Because I find that quite a stretch. But maybe it’s not what you meant. If not, what did you mean?
“The absence of any mention of either Sylvain Mollier’s job or Israel/Mossad in the MSM makes the d notice thing posted on indymedia seem genuine?” — Dave
It does. But of course it doesn’t apply in France. There, the prosecutor is probably withholding information for his own reasons. (Or maybe, just maybe, in response to a request from the British.)
Or maybe the prosecutor is responding to pressure from both the British and French secret services. How do we know.
Perhaps everyone ends up looking bad, so everyone keeps quiet.
French get embarrassed as one of their’s is flogging secrets to Iran?
British look stupid as they could not stop one of their agents – double or otherwise getting topped by Israel?
Israel looks bad as once again their execution with out trial of supposed citizens of allies MO is exposed?
Iran looks bad as it’s exposed as going nuclear arms shopping.
So it’s in everyones interests to keep a lid on the truth?
If a cover up is happening it is probably to cover how embarrassing it is for both the French and British. Presumably the British told the French to keep an eye on Al-Hilli and maybe had their own man or two around. For a foreign power to assassinate the Al-Hillis and the french cyclist and appear to get away with it under these circumstances is beyond mortifying for all parties. There is history of foreign powers luring people away from Britain then killing / kidnapping them …
Least they were not all found rotting in sports bags in the bath in a over-heated flat so maybe not the most embarrassing …
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=221659&page=48
Funny post by “empee” which I found at the davidicke forum, re-posted from yet another place:
“Originally Posted by Snoopster
Just trying to catch up with all of the posters after the last 12 hours. Sorry for so many posts close together.
So what do we have so far?
British family with Iraqi ties takes vacation in France. According to reports they either always enjoy traveling in France, or they suddenly took off.
Saad is fine, or he is nervous. His neighbours are more than willing to share their observations with the media. They universally say that Saad, and the rest of family, are nice. Almost no one comments on the wife, Iqbal (or Ikbal), apparently a dentist).
Saad is working on a sensitive project, or he is working on a completely ordinary project, prior to their departure. Saad works in his own company in satellites and imaging, but in the past he worked in the nuclear business (or not!).
A neighbour volunteers that British Intelligence montored the family during the Iraq war. (The neighbour let them park in his driveway, yet talks about what a wonderful family they are.)
The family drives their vehicle, a BMW X5, and cross at Calais. They take a long time to get to the campground (or they don’t). They switch campgrounds unexpectedly. They seem normal (or they don’t).
The family goes for a drive one day (Sept 5) and never come back. They head up a remote, but known, forest road in their city clothes.
An ex-RAF sees a fellow cyclist pass him. Shortly after, he comes across a terrible scene. He ‘saves the life’ of a young girl by having her lie down in the recovery position. He finds the body of the cyclist who passed him. He calls emergency personnel. He is brave.
LE comes to investigate. They take a very, very, very long time to investigate the scene. Fellow campers tell LE that there were two girls. The find the youngest child 8 hours after the family perished.
The ex-RAF says that he saw a dark 4X4 and a motorbike leave the area. He heard no shots. A local didn’t hear any shots. A local saw the al Hilli family drive by. There was no one else following them.
Someone heard shots. No one heard shots.
Other witnesses saw a white vehicle racing away. LE says perhaps they were Martians.
The cyclist who was killed, was a local, who worked at a company who processed zirconium, which is used in fuel cladding for the nuclear industry. No one says much about this victim.
The perptrator(s) used one weapon…no two weapons….no one weapon.
The adult victims were all shot in the forehead. No they weren’t. Yes they were. They all had one shot to the forehead. No, they all had two shots to the forehead.
There were 20-25 shots fired. No, there were 60. No, there were 25.
There were an unknown number of gunmen. There were two gunmen, with two different weapons. No, there was just one gunman.
The older woman who was killed in the al Hilli vehicle had a Swedish passport and an Iraqi passport…no just a Swedish passport. She was the grandmother, no, she was an unidentified woman who couldn’t be identified by the passport. No, she was, in fact the maternal grandmother.
Saad al Hilli’s brother was a ‘control freak’ who was in a dispute over the family inheritance. No, he was a nice guy. Even if there was a dispute, would he have taken out the family?
Saad’s father was rich. He died in May. He disappeared six days before he was found dead. No, he was found in his apartment six days after he was last seen.
Saad had applied to work at CERN. No, he had a good career in the UK.
The bomb squad is called to the al Hilli home as suspicious ‘stuff’ was encountered. No, it’s not all that suspicious afterall.
Do I pretty much have it all pinned down?”
That’s about it, right?
@Nuid: “Are you suggesting it’s common or would be likely for a whistleblower to contact a photo-journalist??”
Not under all circumstances. The two women in Philippe D.’s car may have been non-photo reporters. Also, Saad Al-Hilli was a specialist for aerial and satellite photography. Maybe he had some satellite photos to disclose.
Unrelated, but I just found it: I have seen claims that Sylvain Mollier was in charge of security at Cezus. This seems to be wrong. French sources uniformly say that he was “agent de production”. I think the English term for this is “production clerk”. Apparently someone made a bizarre mistranslation in the sense of “production spy”.
[Mod/Jon: duplicate of nuid’s +quoted+ posting, please correctly attribute pasted material!]
Bugger, you beat me to it NUID, lol!!!
Yes-that’s about it. Ask yourself who stands to benefit most from such a chaotic situation? Probably those who know the truth.
anders7777,
Is that supposed to be from you, above?
I had just posted it, above yours, with proper attribution.