My post on the shootings in France has brought tens of thousands of people to this site – but not to read my dull contribution. People are coming to read the comments from other readers.
Today’s development of the bomb squad descending on the al-Hilli house does not in itself worry me enormously. You may recall the massive terror scare that was ramped up when some Muslim students in Manchester were found to own a bag of sugar.
In fact we have the opposite phenomenon today, with the spook-fed “security correspondents” on TV lining up to tell us it is probably just everyday household stuff. This deviation from the standard Islamophobic “Muslims = bombs” narrative is so startling it makes me wonder why the “move along, nothing to see here” line is being taken so quickly.
My own security services sources insist that al-Hilli was not a person of current interest to the UK intelligence agencies and was not involved in anything clandestine. I have no reason to disbelieve them. On the other hand, the limited and confusing information in the media is almost entirely from official sources. I find it very strange indeed how little attention has been paid to the murdered French cyclist, and how easily it is presumed he was just a passerby. Surely it is as likely he was the intended victim and the al-Hillis the accidental witnesses?
Please do read the comments on my first entry on the subject to see the debate unfettered by the censorship in the mainstream media. This is perhaps my favourite comment:
From Janesmith101
All comments regarding Sylvain, Al-Hilli and a possible nuclear link are being removed from sites I’ve posted on in The Guardian, Independent and Huffpo UK.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/sep/09/alps-killer-motive-baffles-police
Here was my comment, I added as a point of fact it was completely speculative and an unproven theory in a later comment, also removed.
Sylvain Mollier, the ‘passing’ cyclist, was in fact a nuclear metallurgist who worked for a french nuclear company called Cezus (a subsidiary of Areva). Cezus fabricates and processes zirconium into metal and nuclear grade zircoaloy for nuclear fuel assemblies – it also has other applications in aerospace such as components and ceramics for missiles and satellites. Mr Al-Hilli was also a skilled aerospace engineer, on what looks to be his first camping holiday.
What is the probability that two highly skilled engineers managed be at the same remote place, at the same time, yet still managed to end up dead as a result of what looks to be a military style assasination?
As someone else pointed out in The Independent comments, the deceased were found by a ‘retired’ RAF officer who, we assume, will recieve perpetual anonymity as a witness. If the police are looking for a motive, try an intercepted rendevous by a security service fixated on denying a hostile power illicit nuclear technology.
http://wrmea.org/component/content/article/162-1995-june/7823-israel-bombs-iraqs-osirak-nuclear-research-facility.html
The Huffington Post UK reports that this wasn’t the family’s first trip to the camp site. An earlier report had asked other camp site visitors whether they had seen the family before and they had replied they hadn’t. If this isn’t wasn’t the first visit by Al-Hilli, it might slightly increase the odds that he knew or had met Mollier before, this being the last in a series of rendevous of a transactional nature. Mollier lived and worked locally.
Again, I’m not sure of the truth of these reports, there is some very sloppy journalism, as there is always seems to be. I’ve read for example Mollier’s company Cevus descirbed as a steel firm something which it is patently not, but perhaps it may have been a detail lost in translation.
An interesting comment summing up some of the strange coincidences, at least, surrounding these murders. My other favourite comment calls me a “macchiavellian shill”.
I have only one thought of my own I want to add at the minute. Al-Hilli was a Shia muslim and had been on pilgrimage to Qoms in Iran. What if it is indeed true that he was in possession of no especial nuclear or defence secrets to pass on to the Iranians, but the Israelis thought that he was? The Israeli programme of assassination of scientists involved in Iran’s nuclear programme is a definite fact. It makes as much sense as anything else at the moment, as a possibility.
I am not saying that is what happened. But the directions in which the mainstream media is being so strenuously pointed by official sources, like the massacre of an entire family over an inheritance, are certainly no more inherently probable. Certainly as we are now told all the shots were from one gun, for the assassin to get each victim in the head with none of them being able to escape, indicates real proficiency with the weapon and a very high level of training.
idle thought – I’m not on Twitter, but anyone thought of messaging Ms L?
BTW those car photos on Icke I think are all the same, just different angle and a lower aerial shot
FWIW: “Discover The Regional Natural Park Bauges” (~A2 size leaflet)
http://www.parcdesbauges.com/nature/reserve-nationale-de-chasse-et-de-faune-sauvage/presentation-de-la-reserve.html
Télécharger la carte et le dépliant de la Réserve 3.86 Mb (Download the map and brochure of the Reserve 3.86 Mb) which seems to show route from Chervaline to Jarsy via ?barriers (ie red bars) at Car Park in La Combe d’Ire and at Pt (?pont) de Leyat
Philippe D named as Philippe Didierjean in today’s Guardian.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/11/french-alps-shooting-cyclist-girl
Fascinating thread all pretty much inline with what I’m thinking.
The one thing which never gets mentioned though is the Islamic connection. How come not a word is mentioned about his Mosque ?
Normally a muslims ‘community’ comes out with gnashing teeth screaming Islamophobia…….but not one Muslim seems to have come forward, to speak for this family, other than his brother, so, were this family seen as apostates ….much reviled with Koranic verses calling for their death.
OR: They wait to receive or pass something to Mollier,
Could it be that the two women were in the back of the car because the ‘Balkan’ looking chap was in the front seat….could it be that the 7 year old was on his lap so when he got out of the car she had to get out first , this would explain why she was outside ?
Mr ‘Balkan’ then does the shooting, the pick up vehicle was waiting all along job done & away they go across the border.
I think the regular disappearance of the father from the camp site, was to make confidential calls out of earshot to arrange this meeting , they were all dressed smartly. to go out to lunch ?
@ Olifant – nice map! The white roads are most probably fully tarmaced, the red routes probably dirt/ gravel. I read that the route from Chevaline to Jarsy used to be a D road but was declassified making it a perfect bike ride on a road bike as it is tarmac but without traffic. The red barriers on the map are probably not physical barriers or gates but serve to indicate the limits of permissible motor traffic.
As I have said before, the red routes are also probably easily navigable by even a regular car with reasonable ground clearance and would be a doddle for a Subaru Forester.
This thread has become a joke. Dozens of posts about Phillipe D being the photo journalist – with absolutely no reason to believe that he was. Regurgitated crap copied and pasted between forums by paranoid delusionals who believe that every second poster here is a spy out to derail the thread – when in fact it is the paranoid delusionals who are doing the most to derail the thread and swamp it with crap. I notice that the bullshit level increases the later in the day it gets – probably in line with the amount of alcohol that is being consumed. Every little discrepancy that is reported is jumped upon and heralded as some sort of proof that this is a government conspiracy. These discrepancies happen all the time with journalists – especially if there is translation involved.
This is a very interesting case, and there may well be secret services involved. But there has been very little, if any evidence of that so far, and if such evidence does come along, it is in danger of being lost in the mountain of crap that is being posted.
@ Bajer – I fully agree with your posting!
@Badger
LOL that’s very funny, that actually had me laughing out loud.
Are you seriously suggesting that Anders7777 was derailing this thread (by posting useful and interesting info from other threads) whereas James, Anton, Bluebird & crew were not (by flooding this thread with endless discussion of irrelevant topics)?
Good one!!!
😀
And the ad hominem was entirely gratuitous. Shame on you.
Now… you assert that the discrepancies in the story can all be explained by mis-translation and/or normal journalistic error.
If so, can you explain why the mainstream media initially reported witnesses (plural) hearing 30 seconds of automatic gunfire, but now the official story involves a (single) silenced weapon?
Perhaps the french for “automatic gunfire” is uncannily similar to “dead silence”?
Or perhaps the journo’s at all the mainstream papers are just plain useless?
Or perhaps….?
Re Mr Phillipe D, are we now supposed to believe the papers about his real identity, the same papers who reported 30 seconds of gunfire/silenced weapon???
My credulity is stretchy… but only so far.
Given the timeline surely Phillipe D if walking would have been passed by both cyclists.
So must have been in the car or else we find another hole.
Given both exRaf and PD state girl looked okay on her head, then as they stated they both came down the hill to make te call (walking)! Then perhaps the assassin attacked the girl at this point trying to finish her off
Was told one of the nearby buildings visible on google earth used to be a Freemasons lodge.
@Bajer
Well said
Or perhaps the journo’s at all the mainstream papers are just plain useless?
I should have said “or perhaps all the journo’s at all the mainstream papers all make the same mistake at the same time?”
@Ferret, I am saying that there are a lot of people flooding the thread with crap. The vast majority of the material that is copied and pasted is irrelevant, difficult to read, and rarely sourced correctly.
I never said that all discrepancies can be explained by journalistic error or mistranslation – I said that every discrepancy is pounced on as if it were proof of something. Discrepancies happen all the time, and there seems to be no allowance made for that. Journalists make up shit to sell newspapers. I reckon they have made up most of the stuff about ballistics, because the French police have released no information about this. The official story does not state that it was a lone gunman with a silenced weapon.
Regardless of what Phillipe D’s real identity is – there is absolutely no reason to believe he is the photo journalist.
As I am in danger of further derailing this thread, I will not enter into a long debate about this. I have aired my point of view, and I am sure I am not the only one who feels this way.
“IT LOOKS like a contract killing. The Skorpion machine pistol gives the game away – it is the signature weapon of the disparate and aggressive Balkan nationalist/criminal fraternity sometimes referred to as the Serbian Mafia, but which includes nationals of all the former states of Yugoslavia.
Read more: http://www.theweek.co.uk/crime/annecy-shootings/48966/gun-used-al-hilli-serbian-mafias-signature-weapon#ixzz26FHugoDt”
Plus mystery pretend Eastern European hanging around campsite, and public are given the excuse that’s its some sort of Serbian mafia hit?
While all the while nobody seems to mention that 7.65mm is Mossad’s signature and French bloke worked in the nuclear industry…
@ Ferret – please, do you have some links for mainstream media initially reported witnesses (plural) hearing 30 seconds of automatic gunfire?
@Badger
Well, OK then… I concede there were a lot of errors in the english-speaking press yesterday based on mis-tranlations of Phillipe D’s statements to the french press, and some here have gone off on meaningless tangents based on these. But not Anders7777 (presumably he’s the one you refer to as “paranoid delusional”?) You tarred with a wide brush… Perhaps just letting off steam?
Re Phillipe D again, it may be that he is in fact NOT the famed AFP photographer as people speculated – or it may be that he IS the very same, and the powers-that-be have decided to release a different name in response to internet speculation picked up by spooks here and elsewhere. I doubt we’ll ever know which way it really is. And both are of course possible scenarios. It’s just up to each of us which one we think is most likely.
I still think the most glaring discrepancy is the gunfire/no gunfire, and is the first and most obvious flag that something weird is going on here. (As if the other stuff wasn’t!)
And, the mainstream media WERE reporting yesterday that it was now thought to be a single shooter with “probably” a silenced Skorpion, that was in more than one online paper AFAIR. If you really want I can dig out some references. This IS becoming the official story – until it changes (unless it doesn’t).
There is no hole in my scenario.
However, there are many assumptions elsewhere here surrounding the alleged appearances of and, covers up by “security services”, etc. Not to mention all of the “Did you know this satellite does…..?” All of it at an “Hearsay” factual grade. You’re all looking for monsters under beds and, grasping at straws to build a case for massive international carry ons.
Indeed. Some of you are actually quite behind the news. Press TV reported the capture of the US drome. It has also, within the last two months reported that Iran now has its own homemade drone!
The scenario I depict is the only one here that actually fits……. so far.
Show me some actual physical evidence of even one secret service officer arriving unscheduled within 100 km of the killing site? You can’t, because it’s all a product of Rumour Mill Inc!
As for the French police coming to the UK. If this was an high level secret service operation, why would there have been any need? Especially given that French officers do not normally make such visits!
Oh yes.
Gunfire.
Sound travels and magnifies well in mountains.
So. To avoid being heard. The ONE shooter uses a mufflered/silenced gun.
Doh!
Which is why it was a pistol and, not a submachine gun.
@Dave B
Thanks for the link… holy cr@p batman… so they planted the strange “Balkan-looking guy” story yesterday (what exactly does a “Balkan” guy look like, after all), and the story of the Skorpion as the “probable” weapon yesterday, so people would start to fit all this sh1t together?!? That’s amazing… But that’s psy-ops for you. As you say, 7.65mm is the signature hit of weapon of the Oy Vey brigade… and still no nuke links… D notice still very much in effect then…
And the identity of the weapon is a red herring.
What better way to divert attention, than to use someone else’s signature weapon?
As they say in military circles: “KISS!” (Keep It Simple, Stupid!)
First of all for Special Branch to watch him at his home during the Iraq war would not be unusual and MI5 did the same during world war II to German nationals or people close to their cause.
Israel Consulate is 44 mins away from Annecy in Geneva! and also 2 hours away from the Consulate in Berne.
There would be a lot of agencies interested in this and are a hop and skip away in Geneva including Mi6.
Interesting few paragraphs on the Standard website
“On Sunday, police took the four witnesses back to the forest to work out the positions they had found the body in, and to establish a chronology of events. Intriguingly, one of the last people to see the family alive said they had arrived at the isolated car park at least an hour before they were killed.
Laurent Fillion-Robin, a 38-year-old builder, also claimed there was no sign of any vehicle following the family. He was working on a house near Chevaline when he saw the maroon BMW drive past between 2.30pm and 3pm.
He told police he had seen a green 4×4 and a motorbike heading in the direction of the crime scene beforehand. Fillion-Robin’s testament points towards an agreed rendezvous between Al-Hilli and his eventual killers — a possibility which may be backed up by the records of two mobile phones found in the BMW.”
If this is true, they were in that car park in the middle of nowhere for more than leaking the lizard.
Considering this part, the speculation of the article author that this could have been an interrupted drug deal had me wondering if he had actually read the words he had wrote….
@MontyW
Yes
30 secs of gunfire heard
Sept 5, 17:55 (upd Sept 7, 23:26)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2198777/French-Alps-shooting-Police-question-Saad-Al-Hillis-brother-Zaid-inheritance-row.html
“… intense gunfire was heard for less than 30 seconds …”
Sept 7, 09:36
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/french-alps-shooting-family-were-1309980
“… intense gunfire was heard for less than 30 seconds …”
Sept 7, 09:25
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9527508/France-shooting-Police-probing-possible-family-row.html
“Witnesses reported hearing just 30 seconds of gunfire…”
Sept 7, 09:36
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/french-alps-shooting-family-were-1309980
“… intense gunfire was heard for less than 30 seconds …”
Sept 7, 14:37
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9528207/France-shooting-Witness-saw-4×4-and-motorbike-at-scene.html
“Witnesses reported hearing just 30 seconds of gunfire…”
Sept 7, 09:38 (upd 16:47)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2199670/Saad-Al-Hilli-shooting-French-Alps-Was-hitman-Each-British-victims-shot-TWICE-cyclist-witness-FIVE-times.html
“… intense gunfire was heard for less than 30 seconds …”
Motive,
Method,
Opportunity.
I’ve given you all three.
The French police should be looking at who runs the former al-Hilli business in Iraq, today.
@Bajer – thanks. On the unnecessary copy-and-pasting, and the view that minor discrepancies are solid evidence of spook involvement in all aspects of reportage, I agree with you.
Can I ask that if someone +has+ to paste from elsewhere, it is properly attributed please – even if you are on a mobile phone. Unattributed information doesn’t much help. Also, if you want people to look elsewhere, it is better to synopsise and hyperlink – thanks.
Well personally I’m not reading anything into the reported make of the gun….just because the gun is favoured by certain military/security types doesn;t mean it was military/security that did the hit.
Whilst I do believe it was a govt job, I don’t based on the type of gun used. Anyone with suitable contacts and the funds can get any gun, and there is obviously a black market for police issued/military guns.
Phillipe D could just as easily be Pascale B, or Pierre S….if I (or anyone else0 didnt want my name published I’d not want my true chrstian name and surname initial used, so I think the actual name used for Phillipe D is a red herring. That’s not to say it IS the photographer, but I think personally its a long shot to think that it is.
Uh oh, US ambassador to Libya reported Killed in Benghazi.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/9537683/US-ambassador-to-Libya-killed-in-attack-on-Benghazi-consulate.html
In protests against a film about Islam produced by a Jewish Israeli from Canada
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2012/sep/12/libya-egypt-attacks-muhammad-film-live
My guess. The simplest explanation.
A targeted state sponsored hit with the RAF guy and the Frenchman genuinely not part of the plot. The murdered cyclist may have either been innocent or an active participant – I would guess innocent at this stage despite his background. The state concerned probably lured him to France (to avoid any UK direct involvement/diplomatic incident) for a meeting – possibly technology transfer and then exercises brutality to send a message to others.
It would be significant to me if the RAF guy was not carrying a mobile phone. If he didn’t have one then it would be consistent with someone trying to be off radar. On the other hand he may have had one and may not (or could claim not to) have had coverage.
The position of the car is significant. It is consistent with it being blocked in and that it attempted to reverse to evade. Is it likely that a cyclist could block a car in, in this manner? Probably not.
The length of time they were in the car park and were found in the car seems to strongly support that idea that they were waiting for someone.
The fact that the 7 year old was beaten is also significant. What would someone do if Sasd Al-Hilli refused to hand over something he had just been given, or information he knew?
The key to all this may lie in a safe back in in the Al-Hilli home in England.
Official :
– Number of weapons :
Maillaud said some days ago he did not confirm the use of “1 gun”.
He didn’t say there was 1 gun or not but : “I didn’t confirm that”.
– Type of weapons :
Never he talked about Skorpion. That comes from the British press and relies on nothing serious.
– Number of bullets :
He speaks of 25 bullets, used to say 15 but never said 43 or some figure above 25.
– Gunfire :
I don’t recall he talked about any witness who heard gunfire. The story of “heavy 30sec gunfire” is only to be found in the British press. If there is a witness who said that, Maillaud never confirmed it. If there is a witness who said that to one British journalist it should appear clearly in the newspaper making the interview. Which is not the case.
According to Maillaud and to identified witnesses (RAFman, Philippe D, the bricklayers, the 4 yo girl) no gunfire was heard.
You can talk about Skorpion, gunfire, number of guns or bullets but you should stick to the facts/reliable sources.
I enjoy reading stuff here but sometimes too many people rely on too many elements thats are simply no facts.
—-
and if you want to know what I think of it :
RAFman is the key.
Very weird he was identified only as “an ex-RAF”.
He was very protected from the start.
Leading me to say that he is part of the operation and that the French authorities protect him/the operation.
Because they did it ? Alone ? with the Brits ? Or the French protect the Brits who did it alone ?
I don’t know.
Identifying him as a Brit and ex-military is either because something fucked up (he shouldn’t have been found there) or because they want to piss off the Brits (because they didn’t know about the operation).
Anyway for me it’s very clear : the British services are involved somewhere (in good or bad?) and France will protect them. Meaning you’ll never know much more…