My post on the shootings in France has brought tens of thousands of people to this site – but not to read my dull contribution. People are coming to read the comments from other readers.
Today’s development of the bomb squad descending on the al-Hilli house does not in itself worry me enormously. You may recall the massive terror scare that was ramped up when some Muslim students in Manchester were found to own a bag of sugar.
In fact we have the opposite phenomenon today, with the spook-fed “security correspondents” on TV lining up to tell us it is probably just everyday household stuff. This deviation from the standard Islamophobic “Muslims = bombs” narrative is so startling it makes me wonder why the “move along, nothing to see here” line is being taken so quickly.
My own security services sources insist that al-Hilli was not a person of current interest to the UK intelligence agencies and was not involved in anything clandestine. I have no reason to disbelieve them. On the other hand, the limited and confusing information in the media is almost entirely from official sources. I find it very strange indeed how little attention has been paid to the murdered French cyclist, and how easily it is presumed he was just a passerby. Surely it is as likely he was the intended victim and the al-Hillis the accidental witnesses?
Please do read the comments on my first entry on the subject to see the debate unfettered by the censorship in the mainstream media. This is perhaps my favourite comment:
From Janesmith101
All comments regarding Sylvain, Al-Hilli and a possible nuclear link are being removed from sites I’ve posted on in The Guardian, Independent and Huffpo UK.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/sep/09/alps-killer-motive-baffles-police
Here was my comment, I added as a point of fact it was completely speculative and an unproven theory in a later comment, also removed.
Sylvain Mollier, the ‘passing’ cyclist, was in fact a nuclear metallurgist who worked for a french nuclear company called Cezus (a subsidiary of Areva). Cezus fabricates and processes zirconium into metal and nuclear grade zircoaloy for nuclear fuel assemblies – it also has other applications in aerospace such as components and ceramics for missiles and satellites. Mr Al-Hilli was also a skilled aerospace engineer, on what looks to be his first camping holiday.
What is the probability that two highly skilled engineers managed be at the same remote place, at the same time, yet still managed to end up dead as a result of what looks to be a military style assasination?
As someone else pointed out in The Independent comments, the deceased were found by a ‘retired’ RAF officer who, we assume, will recieve perpetual anonymity as a witness. If the police are looking for a motive, try an intercepted rendevous by a security service fixated on denying a hostile power illicit nuclear technology.
http://wrmea.org/component/content/article/162-1995-june/7823-israel-bombs-iraqs-osirak-nuclear-research-facility.html
The Huffington Post UK reports that this wasn’t the family’s first trip to the camp site. An earlier report had asked other camp site visitors whether they had seen the family before and they had replied they hadn’t. If this isn’t wasn’t the first visit by Al-Hilli, it might slightly increase the odds that he knew or had met Mollier before, this being the last in a series of rendevous of a transactional nature. Mollier lived and worked locally.
Again, I’m not sure of the truth of these reports, there is some very sloppy journalism, as there is always seems to be. I’ve read for example Mollier’s company Cevus descirbed as a steel firm something which it is patently not, but perhaps it may have been a detail lost in translation.
An interesting comment summing up some of the strange coincidences, at least, surrounding these murders. My other favourite comment calls me a “macchiavellian shill”.
I have only one thought of my own I want to add at the minute. Al-Hilli was a Shia muslim and had been on pilgrimage to Qoms in Iran. What if it is indeed true that he was in possession of no especial nuclear or defence secrets to pass on to the Iranians, but the Israelis thought that he was? The Israeli programme of assassination of scientists involved in Iran’s nuclear programme is a definite fact. It makes as much sense as anything else at the moment, as a possibility.
I am not saying that is what happened. But the directions in which the mainstream media is being so strenuously pointed by official sources, like the massacre of an entire family over an inheritance, are certainly no more inherently probable. Certainly as we are now told all the shots were from one gun, for the assassin to get each victim in the head with none of them being able to escape, indicates real proficiency with the weapon and a very high level of training.
EADS Buy up Surrey Satellites,now BAE merge with EADS….. http://www.astrium.eads.net/en/press_centre/eads-astrium-signs-an-agreement-to-acquire-surrey-satellite-technology-limited.html Sub company of SST called DMCii bid business with Russian company ScanEx http://www.technologynewsroom.com/press_releases/company_releases.aspx?story=1900 maybe the espionage is industrial rather than political ?
@badger
It was reported that he was terrified of being identified – not terrified. If he is legit, this is not that unusual, imho. He had stumbled upon a murder scene, where ruthless killer(s) had just killed four people and seriously injured a child. He was obviously going to be a key witness. Just because he was ex-RAF, doesn’t mean he was fearless. I for one, would be shitting myself. The killers could still be close by. He would be worried that they might want to silence him. It’s easy to understand why he could be “terrified of being identified”.
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The above is of course total bollocks. Every single actor bar none in this acte de folie by Tavistock productions has been identified by US or by le prosecutor or dissembling media. Everyone except stiff upper lip-man.
Fail:)
“Suggest if RAFman is not named, he is a spook.”
Anders, he’s been interviewed by the Beeb. It’s all over TV today.
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Thanks Nuid, so they’ve rolled out an ACTOR
eh? 🙂
“maybe the espionage is industrial rather than political?”
Yes, Ian, that was mentioned briefly somewhere, but not followed up.
“Thanks Nuid, so they’ve rolled out an ACTOR”
Can’t be, Anders. He’d be identifiable both in his home location in the UK, plus his location in Haute Savoie.
Odd that BAE announce merger with EADS….a few scientists/experts working for BAE and Raytheon have met with untimely deaths.
Anyone else find the interview with “Brett Martin” slightly, um, er, staged? His testimony was all rather matter-of-fact and wooden.
He didn’t seem the least bit phased by the experience even though he admitted he had never seen the corpse of a shooting victim before, let alone three with two bullets in the front of the head. Stumbling across a sight like that would be very disturbing to anyone.
He is obviously very brave and not in the least worried.
“Odd that BAE announce merger with EADS….a few scientists/experts working for BAE and Raytheon have met with untimely deaths.”
And who can forget the Marconi saga, only 25 dead scientists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GEC-Marconi_scientist_deaths_conspiracy_theory
@jon
@anders7777 – please post less quantity and more quality. Write your own posts, and if your mobile phone is making it tricky to correctly quote and attribute, then use another device.
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Second request for you to please list here all the organisations reading this and the first thred, your ISP can tell you of you don’t have the correct s/w.
Ta 😉
@ Ian Boyd.
Nowt odd about the BAE/EADS merger talks, the history of those go back to 1997 before EADS was actually formed after BAE dropped out of talks with the other potential partners in order to buy Marconi Electronic Systems instead.
BAE/EADS merged their missile businesses in 2001, EADS acquired BAE’s 25% share in Astrium, the satellite and space system manufacturer in 2003, and they were partners in Airbus until 2006 when BAE sold its share to EADS.
The companies have been inter-linked on various projects for many years – just take a look at EADS history on Wikipedia.
The merger talks certainly have nothing to do with this case.
Im sorry but thats a front company just like the one used in the Gareth Williams case and wouldnt be suprised if that house in France is a sfe house and im not even going off topic!
@Jammie Dodgers: Not heard of that one before!
“Police investigations found the deaths to be unconnected and lacking evidence of foul play”
And we’ve seen this week that the British police can be relied upon for their open and honest investigations, can’t we? (COUGH Hillsborough COUGH).
Anders7777, I second Jon’s request. Jon’s a moderator here, and so am I. Please keep your arguments focused.
In an interview with The Daily Telegraph, Philippe D said that he had been hiking up the forest road of Combe-d’Ire near the village of Chevaline with two female friends when a cyclist suddenly came careering towards him.
The cyclist, a British RAF veteran who was the first person to discover the murder scene, yelled “something terrible’s happened” as the two crossed paths just 50 yards away from the al-Hilli family’s BMW estate car.
“He looked panic-stricken, shocked,” Philippe D said of the British cyclist. “He tried to explain in pidgin French what had happened.
“He wanted to phone the emergency services. I didn’t understand whether he had a mobile or couldn’t get a signal.”
Philippe D said that he at first assumed there had been an accident, but that when he reached the murder scene a few moments later, he was “scared stiff” by what he saw.
“There was no sound. It was like a horror film,” he said. “One of those TV series where everything starts with a murder.
“Except this time we were the actors and we didn’t have the remote control to change the channel switch.
“When we saw that nobody answered our calls and apparently everyone was dead, we were totally spooked.”
The hiker, who called the emergency services, then saw seven-year-old Zainab al-Hilli lying in the recovery position just yards from the BMW, where the British cyclist had placed her.
Philippe D said: “She was lying down and motionless, but she didn’t looked bashed up. I could see no blood, one couldn’t see where she had been hurt. She was a few yards in front of the car.
“She didn’t respond to our calls. I clapped my hands but she didn’t react. I even said a few words in English as I saw the car was registered in Great Britain. But nothing happened. For me, she was dead.”
Once the police and medics arrived, Phillipe D and the British cyclist were taken to the gendarmerie for questioning.
While the unidentified RAF officer told police that he had seen a dark green four-wheel drive vehicle and a motorbike coming down the hill shortly before he arrived on the scene, the French hiker said was “totally sure” he had “heard nothing and passed nobody – not a car or a motorbike”.
He returned to the crime scene on Sunday to help police reconstruct the precise timing of the shooting and their arrival.
Police sources cited by French media say that one type of weapon, a 7.65 calibre pistol, was used in the attack. However, it is unclear whether one or two guns or gunmen were involved.
Around 120 French police officers are working on the investigation, split into five or six teams of which each is investigating a different theory. Mr al-Hilli’s brother, Zaid, has denied claims that they were involved in a family feud over their father’s legacy.
Meanwhile, tourists who stayed at the same campsite as the victims in the days leading up to their death, corroborated claims that Mr al-Hilli had frequently disappeared alone in his car without his family.
Dutch tourist Eli Draaisma, 64, from Veememdaal, in Holland, also said that a “strange” man of Eastern European appearance was scouring every corner of the Village Camping Europa site in Saint Jorioz, three hours before the al-Hilli’s left for a neighbouring campsite.
“He was dressed all in black, black trousers, black long-sleeved shirt,” he said. “He seemed to be searching the campsite, looking everywhere, but he didn’t look like a tourist. He definitely didn’t look like he belonged, he was not on a holiday.” (Torygraph story ends)
Former Head of Anti Terrorism Squad and a Criminology professor both interviewed said today that a serious higroup could have staged a fatal car crash and that this was clearly intended to be a warning. They thought it was terrorism related.
Some hints in the press of possible Iranian involvement – Shia connection?
Speaking as a layperson sounds like some sort of deal – drugs, intelligence – that went wrong and family went on run. Hit men caught up with them and killed them as a warning. It reads to me as if the hit man killed all the car occupants, then the cyclist who showed up as he was leaving, hence less efficiently killed, and then the little girl appeared and he had to do a hasty job and leave fast. Experts seem generally agreed if he was a professional aiming at all 5 he would have taken them all out equally efficiently.
Some living in France, says on another site French police investigation has been carefully set up to be handled by security police not locals. Where is Interpol?
@anders7777 – interesting idea, but I’d guess any competent security services know how to cover their tracks when visiting a web site, and (of course) it’s not in the spirit of internet privacy to list the service providers of ordinary visitors.
“Thanks Nuid, so they’ve rolled out an ACTOR”
Can’t be, Anders. He’d be identifiable both in his home location in the UK, plus his location in Haute Savoie.
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An ACTOR has many faces!
All spooks have day jobs as cover. Frank Gardner for example. Tavistock and Mi5 have had many days now to rehearse the geezer.
I say he’s only been wheeled out at a because of threads like this.
Pre Internet we’d never have seen him.
I’m off to study some NLP analysis of the interview. Initial reactions are not good.
Interesting smorgasboard of reactions here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by fancycat
When he said siblings , he sure sounded like he had a Kiwi twang.
He has probably been briefed up this past week by his handlers on what exactly to say….
Talked about it like it was an episode of CSI….
Something didn’t sit right watching that personally….
MM SAID: He is very calm, not emotional or even emotive about what he is speaking of, something he was apparently so traumatised by, he didn’t sleep for days! As an RAF pilot, would he have been trained how to hide his body language etc?
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YES.
Raf pilots are sent on courses which include interrogation techniques and how to handle yourself. Obviously on case they get shot down behind enemy lines.
Slevon: The whole interview doesn’t ring true. He also talks directly to the camera on a couple of occasions, rather than to the interviewer.
Skrappy:
“Quote” Mr Martin – who is currently under Police protection.
Yet within 5 minutes everyone knows his life story WTF
Sheepy: I suspect the spooks have been working around the clock this past week trying to come up with suitable spin to address some of our ‘concerns’ with the official story. I have no doubt that they have been glued to this thread (and to other ‘conspiracy’ websites) trying to assess what we have caught and what we have missed before rolling out the imposter/actor that is supposed to be RAFman.
Dr froggy: drfroggy
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 3
He looked like he had been well trained in ‘interrogation’ techniques – very controlled…
My gut instinct on watching him, from body language & the lack of ‘natural’ clues, was this wasn’t some random person who came across a horrific scene.
Sheepy: OK did anyone pick up on this…
The “journalist” asks if he had any idea that the 4-year-old was in the car at the time and whether he had seen her at all, to which he replies…
Quote:
” No, (pause) NOT (stress) at all (shakes head)… And I am sort of not surprised. Unless you were to open that car and look in…the way the bodies in the rear were (pause) SLUMPED (stress)….it doesn’t surprise me in the least, because (pause) er… I can see why you wouldn’t want to go into the car for forensic reasons…and there would be no other reason to go in there except to move bodies…”
Now I find what he says here very odd indeed. He is speaking as though he himself did not witness the incident/was not at the aftermath at all as though he is simply reporting/or reading from a script. There seems to be no connection between him and the situation.
Wouldn’t it be more natural to say something along the lines of…
Quote:
“No, not at all. I had no idea she was in there because of the way the bodies were slumped. And I didn’t go into the car/open the car door for forensic reasons.”
Possible explanations:
(i) he is lying
(ii) he is an actor (i.e. not RAFman but a stand-in)
(iii) he is reciting or reading from a script
My gut feeling is that the man in the interview is a FAKE!
@anders7777 – interesting idea, but I’d guess any competent security services know how to cover their tracks when visiting a web site, and (of course) it’s not in the spirit of internet privacy to list the service providers of ordinary visitors.
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Yes they would, but it would be interesting to see who is visiting this thread. Many sites do this. This of a conspiratorial nature. Obviously just list the public face organisations. Not individuals. I don’t see this ad breaking any privacy laws.
Similarly to how family members of murdered victims are urged to do press conferences so, the cops can gauge how they come across, perhaps this is the reason why he did this interview?
Maybe he was advised to do it so investigation behaviorogists could study him? Just a thought..
@rickitarr
@anders7777 – interesting idea, but I’d guess any competent security services know how to cover their tracks when visiting a web site, and (of course) it’s not in the spirit of internet privacy to list the service providers of ordinary visitors.
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The one next to the masons lodge? (wink) 🙂
@anders7777 – interesting idea, but I’d guess any competent security services know how to cover their tracks when visiting a web site, and (of course) it’s not in the spirit of internet privacy to list the service providers of ordinary visitors.
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I think people here pretty much know my views by now. Anyhoos, do you have a view on publishing the list of orgs reading this thread? IMHO this should sever as transparency. It is not illegal to read this thread. Not is it illegal to publish a List of those organisations reading here.
@rickitarr
Bloody iPhone! That was a reply to your safe house in the woods!;)
I’d feel far safer in Beirut, personally, than CHAVALINE sur le Mort! 🙂
Watched part of the Brett Martin interview while waiting at the doctor’s – no sound – so I was more aware of his body language.I was struck by his lack of expression – he could have been describing a routine shopping trip. I too thought he’d been coached but he wasn’t an actor or he’d have put on a better performance.
Alternatively he was still in shock and his feelings were numbed by the terrible events he’d witnessed/ stumbled on.
@MontyW
Thanks – so the automatic gunfire witness is at the same campsite or that’s the impression the BBC wishes to create. Doesn’t look like that “Boris Bike” would get up the mountain easily.
Oddities of Mr Martin’s “first” (an probably last) interview:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-19587272
“..sort of approaching the scene..”
He thinks cyclist – (“bike on its side”) – is ““having a rest“, (strange way to leave a bike when having a rest) but then Martin doesn’t mention the body of the cyclist which was “more or less in front of the car” until later in the interview.
“and then moved on”.. “moved on to the other people”… “sort of first attender’s activities”….”in and out of doing other things” “wheels spinning in circles” Strange phrases. Very general.
I would have thought a multiply shot cyclist would have attracted a lot more attention straight away. Then he decides he has to drag the cyclist away from the car (when perhaps obviously no sign of life was present…) “I needed to move him,so I moved him away from in front of the vehicle”. Then he checks for signs of life.
Er…could have turned the engine off before moving the body. Then
“started scouting the woods” when there might be a crazed gunman about – highly sensible.
A very weird interview – too much detail as has already been noted. I guess this will be his one and only break from cover.
Highly coached with the official narrative,I feel. And perhaps with wire into his right ear. Seems a natural thing to do for prompting. Who’s in that wardrobe?
“road rash” is more indicative of a racing cyclist’s talk.
Wonder how active he is in VC Usine…
@watcher
Good stuff!
Sidepoint, many links from last night / this morning (booman tribune for one) now = 404 errors , sites taken down.
Getting closer to the D notice then ??
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Now you know why I ALWAYS PASTE STUFF IN!
Not looked but I hope the mods haven’t deleted it 🙁
If the cyclist (and the 7 year old) was found lying in front of the car then why is there blood several feet (a good six feet or more) to the right of the car? I’ve just watched some clips on you tube and a reporter at the site mentions the blood there.
Feliz just read your post re him moving the cyclist. That might explain the blood except you’d expect a blood trail then, not a pool of it in one place so I’m still confused by the blood to the right of the car. I’ve seen no reference made to any at the front of the car or signs of it in pics.
Another observation from the you tube clips. Coming back down the hill on that lane the carpark is on the right as you pass. Just after the car park, and again on the right, is another kind of layby area – the sort you’d find on a single track road to allow two cars to pass.
@Dopey,
In moving the cyclist, he has interfered with a crime scene. He could have switched off the engine first. The risk of the car shooting forwards seems far-fetched. Are spinning wheels “burning rubber” and “hot buring engine smell” credible? In fact all seems very far-fetched to me.
Quite a few quotes in the recent Evening Standard piece
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/alps-massacre-raf-cyclist-who-stumbled-across-victims-saw-girl-stumbling-around-bleeding-8135016.html
Notice the French trying to switch the spotlight…
Eric Maillaud, speaking in Woking today, said : “Annecy was the unfortunate site of this drama. Without any doubt the reasons and origins were in this country.”
There are some interesting theories here and people have done some great research. For sure these were ‘no ordinary tourists’ and this was no ordinary murder. I’m all for justice for the girls and finding out the truth as i’m sure goes for most who contribute here. Alas, we will never know and no one will now believe any version anyway so job well done in many ways. There is clearly plenty that doesn’t add up. Lack of media attention/details/access to witnesses it goes on and on and on. perhaps its the AngloFrench way? Maybe Mr RAF man is legit, maybe he isn’t. Perhaps as someone suggested it is indeed a cry of ‘i didn’t know these people therefore i am not of interest to you, please don’t come after me’. More power to him. But since when was the ambulance man of interest anyway, if you follow ? The person who arrives on the scene first doesn’t become a target for arriving after the deed is done and the doers have gone. That interview was thoroughly bizarre and his mouth was contradicted constantly by his body. It’s what you don’t say, as they say. To me one of the most baffling things here though are the contributors in the ‘it’s definitely NOT a conspiracy, it’s all perfectly straight forward and played out exactly as has been reported ‘ brigade who waffle on with absolutely no content and beyond puerile attacks posted as if by a demented parakeet. What can their motivation be one wonders, why would you find your way here and feel motivated to contribute that to this particular debate ? ‘Shoot and dilute’. Seems highly paranoid. Just might make one highly paranoid. Makes the whole thing much more spoo…ooo.oooo.oooo..oooo….ky….
Do we know why the crime scene had to be closed off again yesterday?