My post on the shootings in France has brought tens of thousands of people to this site – but not to read my dull contribution. People are coming to read the comments from other readers.
Today’s development of the bomb squad descending on the al-Hilli house does not in itself worry me enormously. You may recall the massive terror scare that was ramped up when some Muslim students in Manchester were found to own a bag of sugar.
In fact we have the opposite phenomenon today, with the spook-fed “security correspondents” on TV lining up to tell us it is probably just everyday household stuff. This deviation from the standard Islamophobic “Muslims = bombs” narrative is so startling it makes me wonder why the “move along, nothing to see here” line is being taken so quickly.
My own security services sources insist that al-Hilli was not a person of current interest to the UK intelligence agencies and was not involved in anything clandestine. I have no reason to disbelieve them. On the other hand, the limited and confusing information in the media is almost entirely from official sources. I find it very strange indeed how little attention has been paid to the murdered French cyclist, and how easily it is presumed he was just a passerby. Surely it is as likely he was the intended victim and the al-Hillis the accidental witnesses?
Please do read the comments on my first entry on the subject to see the debate unfettered by the censorship in the mainstream media. This is perhaps my favourite comment:
From Janesmith101
All comments regarding Sylvain, Al-Hilli and a possible nuclear link are being removed from sites I’ve posted on in The Guardian, Independent and Huffpo UK.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/sep/09/alps-killer-motive-baffles-police
Here was my comment, I added as a point of fact it was completely speculative and an unproven theory in a later comment, also removed.
Sylvain Mollier, the ‘passing’ cyclist, was in fact a nuclear metallurgist who worked for a french nuclear company called Cezus (a subsidiary of Areva). Cezus fabricates and processes zirconium into metal and nuclear grade zircoaloy for nuclear fuel assemblies – it also has other applications in aerospace such as components and ceramics for missiles and satellites. Mr Al-Hilli was also a skilled aerospace engineer, on what looks to be his first camping holiday.
What is the probability that two highly skilled engineers managed be at the same remote place, at the same time, yet still managed to end up dead as a result of what looks to be a military style assasination?
As someone else pointed out in The Independent comments, the deceased were found by a ‘retired’ RAF officer who, we assume, will recieve perpetual anonymity as a witness. If the police are looking for a motive, try an intercepted rendevous by a security service fixated on denying a hostile power illicit nuclear technology.
http://wrmea.org/component/content/article/162-1995-june/7823-israel-bombs-iraqs-osirak-nuclear-research-facility.html
The Huffington Post UK reports that this wasn’t the family’s first trip to the camp site. An earlier report had asked other camp site visitors whether they had seen the family before and they had replied they hadn’t. If this isn’t wasn’t the first visit by Al-Hilli, it might slightly increase the odds that he knew or had met Mollier before, this being the last in a series of rendevous of a transactional nature. Mollier lived and worked locally.
Again, I’m not sure of the truth of these reports, there is some very sloppy journalism, as there is always seems to be. I’ve read for example Mollier’s company Cevus descirbed as a steel firm something which it is patently not, but perhaps it may have been a detail lost in translation.
An interesting comment summing up some of the strange coincidences, at least, surrounding these murders. My other favourite comment calls me a “macchiavellian shill”.
I have only one thought of my own I want to add at the minute. Al-Hilli was a Shia muslim and had been on pilgrimage to Qoms in Iran. What if it is indeed true that he was in possession of no especial nuclear or defence secrets to pass on to the Iranians, but the Israelis thought that he was? The Israeli programme of assassination of scientists involved in Iran’s nuclear programme is a definite fact. It makes as much sense as anything else at the moment, as a possibility.
I am not saying that is what happened. But the directions in which the mainstream media is being so strenuously pointed by official sources, like the massacre of an entire family over an inheritance, are certainly no more inherently probable. Certainly as we are now told all the shots were from one gun, for the assassin to get each victim in the head with none of them being able to escape, indicates real proficiency with the weapon and a very high level of training.
If you’d been quizzed multiple time by police/security services, you’d seem rehearsed too. You’d have got your story narrative straight and you’d make damn sure you had it straight for the world’s media. He didn’t seem particularly unnatural to me. People also tend to fall back on the familiar, on cliche, and so references to TV dramas and so on would not be uncommon – it’s what people tend to do when being interviewed on TV. I actually think we may be reading too much into his interview. First, we thought he was made up and now, when he appears and tells his story, we say he’s lying/been coached and so on. Nothing he’s said in the interview contradicts the idea that this was an assassination. He has his hands clasped around his knee so that he won;t wave them about.
The chap does triathlons, lots of people in the UK and elsewhere will know him. Witnesses after a simple mugging come out with different stories; human observation is notoriously fickle, so Phillipe D and Mr Martin might well have somewhat different accounts. I’d have thought that actually suggests that both may be genuine, since if all were conspirators, surely they’d have come out with a slick, identical tale.
Spinning wheels, a hot burning engine etc must have been making a bit of a racket…enough to be heard as he came cycling up the hill anyway. Hearing something like that, wouldnt you be on alert before you even got to see the car?
Yet he thought the cyclist may have been just having a rest, and the 7 year old playing with her “sibling”. If I heard then found a car in that state my first thought upon seeing a cyclist on the ground and then a 7 year old close to collapse wouldnt be that.
Then again I can see how he might want to move the cyclist incase the car spurted forward. However, if he saw the cyclist first then the 7 year old when he went to switch off the car- after seeing a shot dead cyclist you wouldn;t think the 7 year old had been playing with a sibling would you
The fairytale continued, it is desperation time to wheel RAFman out, now there will be even more questions, his performance was a joke. Trust your gut instinct, for me, nothing at all has changed
I’d be interested to read a full NLP and body language assessment, working on that now.
Also pay attention to what questions were asked and WHAT WERE NOT.
Yes the BBC. And especially Brunt the c&&t are embedded, most high profile journalists who travel a lot, ate spooks, they are extensively debriefed after every visit to hot spots, ditto many pilots, ditto cruise liners.
I recently did a cruise on the new Queen Mary and needed to visit the doc for some painkillers – bloke was spook central. Visits the world and knows all the patients secrets,
RAFman.
Fail. 🙂 😉 🙂
@bilbo
First post eh? Calm and rational post, eh? Designed to mollify the casual reader and give an “out” to the official fairytale and RARman’s lousy over-rehearsed wooden performance. I still don’t know what you’ve said as its all obvious NLP waffle.
Fail 🙂
ok well we have 2 dimensions
http://www.tri247.com/participant_343222.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2202635/French-Alps-shootings-British-cyclist-speaks-horror-discovering-bodies-family-shot-dead.html?ito=feeds-newsxml
BTW it is very clear that this was a carefully scripted sideshow. RAFman knew what he was going to be asked in advance. 😉
Henc the epic fail, 😉
Wonder what the significance of this chap is?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/groupemessager/7938879656/
Taken on September 5, 2012 at 7.32pm CEST
Truc sez: Quote:
Originally Posted by molliemallone
If I was in charge of making it look like he was the man who genuinely stumbled across a massacre whilst out on a nice sunny afternoon bike ride after doing a bit of DIY in the morning, I think I would have told the actor to appear quite emotional and upset about what he’d ‘seen’ that day.
He was just weird!!
How many of us could come across a scene like that and be in any fit shape to go on tv? I’d be in therapy from the trauma and worried the killers would be coming after me. The last thing I’d do is put a nice suit on and go speak on tv in an emotionless, pre-rehearsed manner.
The thing to remember is that when we hear “Ex-RAF” we all think, “Hmmm” but when the masses hear ex-raf, ex-british airways pilot, they thinkg “Ooh he must be responsible and trustworthy, we can believe him.” How very convenient.
Wenlock
***Listless & detached are just a few words you could use to describe that interview. He spoke of ‘heads with holes in them’ this after saying he’s had no experience of a situation like the one he saw. Classic over elaborated story telling. ***
Sheepy; Quote:
Originally Posted by molliemallone
Its the same video as on the BBC.
Interestingly, you don’t ever see his right ear… could it be that he is being fed some answers. Not sure that I’ve seen that setup for a BBC interview, I wonder if it was ‘supplied’ to them.
I thought the exact same thing. Something about that interview room…er..can’t quite put my finger on it…too “clinical”, perhaps?
=====
Indeed.
@Anders – you decided that you would have problems with the RAF guy’s interview before you even saw it. You have decided that this was a state sponsored hit and you will try to shoe horn the evidence to fit your theory. This is not how a good investigator works. A good investigator forms the theory from the evidence – not the other way around. You are completely ruling out the possibility that these killings were as a result of industrial espionage, inheritance – or even an Iraqi connection that is unrelated to the secret services. No matter what evidence is found, or what conclusions the police arrive at, you will declare that it is all a fit up. Your assertion that the ex-RAF man is a stooge is ridiculous. He has residences in England and France. His CV is on linked-in (it is not deleted, just not visible to non-members). If any of this was false, neighbours of where he lives would know, work colleagues from his past employers would know. The facade would be discovered in no time. You just won’t accept that he may be as he seems – and that makes you an unreliable commentator.
Most rolling news is carefully scripted. This guy is real, face facts and stop making a fool of yourself. Dogmatic beliefs help no one.
We’re now – post-Diana and all those stupid ‘reality’ TV shows – used to seeing hysterical people on TV. We think that their hysteria makes them genuine. Weepy Gold medallists. Yet remember those press conferences and interviews where the murderer sat with the family and wept and where the mother and step-father allegedly had their daughter kidnapped yet appeared, all teary and holding hands in their shell suits (a sort of sink estate version of the McCanns) on the TV cameras as though they knew nothing about it?
Actually, people react differently and it is entirely consistent for someone to attempt to remain cold, clinical, matter-of-fact (“holes-in-heads”), as it allows them to distance themselves, just a little, from the horror. You talk as though you were only half there. That is how police, fire-fighters, medical staff are able to cope. If they cracked up every time they saw an RTA/murder/assault, they’d be no use to anyone.
Rjones: Originally Posted by drfroggy
He looked like he had been well trained in ‘interrogation’ techniques – very controlled…
My gut instinct on watching him, from body language & the lack of ‘natural’ clues, was this wasn’t some random person who came across a horrific scene.
I agree ….it was when he said, ” it looked like something out of a film.”
It just doesn’t sit right….I know he was in the R.A.F…but he doesn’t look to shocked for me……and further, at the scene of the crime he starts going around touching things and putting victims in the recovery position,……this from a man who stated on the lines of, he didn’t want to get involved or named due to his safety.
I’ve mentioned this before on these boards. I was at Lockerbie, the morning after the Pam Am jet came down. I scoured the hills for bits of bodies and helped with a few of the hundreds of post-mortems that took place in the curling-rink. When I talk about it, I talk clinically, coldly, matter-of-factly. It’s the only way to deal with it. I can see how people would just reel-off facts in an ‘easy’ manner: “I turned her over and she had no face.”
The horror resides in the very mundanity.
British witness revealed. Assassination remains unsolved. Nothing he says refutes assassination by state or non-state actors. How does his account stop threads like these? The killers are out there. Someone paid them. Who, and why?
@Anders7777
You have done some good sleuthing. There is imho certainly “something to see here” yet some people are now trying to move us on.
Martin though is real. He checks out. But I fear that his slow-to-emergy first hand report is not quite the whole truth. It was a very strange interview to me. But clearly highly normal to others here.
I’ve mentioned this before on these boards. I was at Lockerbie, the morning after the Pam Am jet came down. I scoured the hills for bits of bodies and helped with a few of the hundreds of post-mortems that took place in the curling-rink. When I talk about it, I talk clinically, coldly, matter-of-factly. It’s the only way to deal with it. I can see how people would just reel-off facts in an ‘easy’ manner: “I turned her over and she had no face.”
The horror resides in the very mundanity.
=====
Do you think the man was coached in what to say? And body language?
Do you think he was given a list of questions that he was going to be asked, in advance?
Do you expect his handlers will have been in on what questions to ask, and more importantly, WHAT NOT TO ASK?
He is at a safe house now. Therefore he has handlers now, and has done since the hit.
ERGO those handlers will have been behind the camera, yes?
Get the picture yet? 🙂
Anders, some people can be calm and rational while not being devious. I actually find your posts interesting and was far from being against you which leaves me greatly worried by your intuition and mine. Also, it seems to need saying, this is not a kangaroo court. You are not judge and jury. For a man on a search for the truth, the concept of a democracy seems to be escape you. Either you can’t read, didn’t bother to, or didn’t understand. NLP ? Epic fail ? (are you in junior high?). I mentioned nothing of or related nothing to NLP, truly bizarre. I can only presume you thought you were the demented parakeet, how wrong you were. I have no interest in mollifying anyone over this and sometimes people do post for the first time. You were also a child once. (no doubt that will crash into the wall behind you as well). RIP the adults, strength to the girls.
@felix
Yes he is real.
It changes absolutely nothing though.
What does it change?
Martin knows something I would bet most if not all of us here don’t.
He know how to fly a plane and he knows how to teach somebody to fly a plane. That means he knows how to deal with stress and life threatening situations without being too fidgety.
Second to protect the police investigation not all the details were told in the interviews.
Assuming the killer/killers are still alive they don’t need to know what police knows about the crime.
Not a Brit myself but being hysterical, paranoid, and over the top clown is not a British way.
Stiff upper lip, right. “winks”
Edit to add to felix, this IMHO is a forced (we forced them, sites like this) damage limitation exercise – not originally part of the script at all, which is why it stinks. 🙂
@poirot
So why wheel him out at all then??? Can’t have it both ways! 🙂
Fire blade:
Quote:
Originally Posted by straw44berry
ok well we have 2 dimensions
http://www.tri247.com/participant_343222.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti…=feeds-newsxml
He does’nt mention Mollier passing him on the road.
***TRIATHLETE*** too.
Would Mollier be able to pass him up the hill? 😉 🙂
ok well we have 2 dimensions
http://www.tri247.com/participant_343222.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti…=feeds-newsxml
He does’nt mention Mollier passing him on the road.
***TRIATHLETE*** too.
Would Mollier be able to pass him up the hill?
@felix
You have done some good sleuthing. There is imho certainly “something to see here” yet some people are now trying to move us on.
=====
Seem panicked to ensure the damage limitation sticks IMO…
This site and sites like it forced nothing. No one on any of these sites came close to identifying him. However, the press were successful in finding out his identity and that probably played a part in him being advised to do an interview. Of course he knew what questions he was going to be asked and of course he was prepared. It wasn’t question time with Jeremy Paxman.
The real question that has arisen today is why has the French investigator decided that the causes of the murders are in the UK?
Anders 7777, you need to get out of the telephone box occasionally, man.
What precisely did you want Mr Martin to say?
Here he is, on a triathlon:
http://www.tri247.com/participant_343222.html
Ironman:
http://triresults.com/home/splits_details/427076
Okay, back to the murders.
Facts, chase the facts.
@Anders you can prove anything you like with statistics and data. All sides can manipulate data, therefore there can be no such thing as HARD DATA. This is a world of supposition. The fact that you don’t seem to grasp that basic principle invalidates your arguments and theories somewhat. I don’t think you can know much about NLP, or much else it seems, you appear to have a very basic grip on the world of psychology, ‘reading between the lines’. The only HARD DATA that anyone can garner from this forum is that you need a visit from the men in white coats. You seem quite frenetic. Or is that fanatic ?
Are we to seriously believe that Ex-RAF stumbled across the scene??
Silver Fern (Sussex) Limited
Company Number: 05708870
Company Type: Private limited with Share Capital
SIC Code: 7420, Architectural & Engineering Activities & Consultancy
Inc. Date: 14 Feb 2006
Annual Returns: 14 Feb 2012
Annual Accounts: 28 Feb 2011
Registered Address
55 Princes Gate
Exhibition Road
London
SW7 2PN
United Kingdom
Trading Address
55 Princes Gate
Exhibition Road
London
SW7 2PN
Both he and his wife Theresa Valeria Martin are named as directors.
Theresa Valerie Martin (53)
Director, No Function
8 Mar 2009 – Present (3 years, 6 months, 5 days)
Gc Secretarial Services Ltd
Company Secretary, No Function
14 Feb 2006 – Present (6 years, 6 months, 30 days)
William Brett Martin (53)
Director, Director
14 Feb 2006 – Present (6 years, 6 months, 30 days)
Rwl Registrars Limited
Company Secretary, No Function
14 Feb 2006 – 14 Feb 2006 ()