My post on the shootings in France has brought tens of thousands of people to this site – but not to read my dull contribution. People are coming to read the comments from other readers.
Today’s development of the bomb squad descending on the al-Hilli house does not in itself worry me enormously. You may recall the massive terror scare that was ramped up when some Muslim students in Manchester were found to own a bag of sugar.
In fact we have the opposite phenomenon today, with the spook-fed “security correspondents” on TV lining up to tell us it is probably just everyday household stuff. This deviation from the standard Islamophobic “Muslims = bombs” narrative is so startling it makes me wonder why the “move along, nothing to see here” line is being taken so quickly.
My own security services sources insist that al-Hilli was not a person of current interest to the UK intelligence agencies and was not involved in anything clandestine. I have no reason to disbelieve them. On the other hand, the limited and confusing information in the media is almost entirely from official sources. I find it very strange indeed how little attention has been paid to the murdered French cyclist, and how easily it is presumed he was just a passerby. Surely it is as likely he was the intended victim and the al-Hillis the accidental witnesses?
Please do read the comments on my first entry on the subject to see the debate unfettered by the censorship in the mainstream media. This is perhaps my favourite comment:
From Janesmith101
All comments regarding Sylvain, Al-Hilli and a possible nuclear link are being removed from sites I’ve posted on in The Guardian, Independent and Huffpo UK.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/sep/09/alps-killer-motive-baffles-police
Here was my comment, I added as a point of fact it was completely speculative and an unproven theory in a later comment, also removed.
Sylvain Mollier, the ‘passing’ cyclist, was in fact a nuclear metallurgist who worked for a french nuclear company called Cezus (a subsidiary of Areva). Cezus fabricates and processes zirconium into metal and nuclear grade zircoaloy for nuclear fuel assemblies – it also has other applications in aerospace such as components and ceramics for missiles and satellites. Mr Al-Hilli was also a skilled aerospace engineer, on what looks to be his first camping holiday.
What is the probability that two highly skilled engineers managed be at the same remote place, at the same time, yet still managed to end up dead as a result of what looks to be a military style assasination?
As someone else pointed out in The Independent comments, the deceased were found by a ‘retired’ RAF officer who, we assume, will recieve perpetual anonymity as a witness. If the police are looking for a motive, try an intercepted rendevous by a security service fixated on denying a hostile power illicit nuclear technology.
http://wrmea.org/component/content/article/162-1995-june/7823-israel-bombs-iraqs-osirak-nuclear-research-facility.html
The Huffington Post UK reports that this wasn’t the family’s first trip to the camp site. An earlier report had asked other camp site visitors whether they had seen the family before and they had replied they hadn’t. If this isn’t wasn’t the first visit by Al-Hilli, it might slightly increase the odds that he knew or had met Mollier before, this being the last in a series of rendevous of a transactional nature. Mollier lived and worked locally.
Again, I’m not sure of the truth of these reports, there is some very sloppy journalism, as there is always seems to be. I’ve read for example Mollier’s company Cevus descirbed as a steel firm something which it is patently not, but perhaps it may have been a detail lost in translation.
An interesting comment summing up some of the strange coincidences, at least, surrounding these murders. My other favourite comment calls me a “macchiavellian shill”.
I have only one thought of my own I want to add at the minute. Al-Hilli was a Shia muslim and had been on pilgrimage to Qoms in Iran. What if it is indeed true that he was in possession of no especial nuclear or defence secrets to pass on to the Iranians, but the Israelis thought that he was? The Israeli programme of assassination of scientists involved in Iran’s nuclear programme is a definite fact. It makes as much sense as anything else at the moment, as a possibility.
I am not saying that is what happened. But the directions in which the mainstream media is being so strenuously pointed by official sources, like the massacre of an entire family over an inheritance, are certainly no more inherently probable. Certainly as we are now told all the shots were from one gun, for the assassin to get each victim in the head with none of them being able to escape, indicates real proficiency with the weapon and a very high level of training.
@komodo
Congratulations on your discovery that newsdesks are heavily reliant on news agencies. Such as AFP, Reuters, AP. Whose reports are often c&p’d entire or in part. When a story breaks, they are unlikely to have a man on the ground, and even later, it makes more sense to use an agency than to send a hack out to spend a week comatose on fine wine.
=====
“There is no such thing, at this date of the world’s history, in America, as an independent press. You know it and I know it.
There is not one of you who dares to write your honest opinions, and if you did, you know beforehand that it would never appear in print. I am paid weekly for keeping my honest opinion out of the paper I am connected with. Others of you are paid similar salaries for similar things, and any of you who would be so foolish as to write honest opinions would be out on the streets looking for another job. If I allowed my honest opinions to appear in one issue of my paper, before twenty-four hours my occupation would be gone.
The business of the journalists is to destroy the truth, to lie outright, to pervert, to vilify, to fawn at the feet of mammon, and to sell his country and his race for his daily bread. You know it and I know it, and what folly is this toasting an independent press?
We are the tools and vassals of rich men behind the scenes. We are the jumping jacks, they pull the strings and we dance. Our talents, our possibilities and our lives are all the property of other men. We are intellectual prostitutes.”
“Groan. Anyone in the front seat except RAFman!”
Family wait for Mollier, see him arive, so older girl gets out of car so he can sit in the front and talk to dad, others prepare to exit, but before much happens kill team drive across the front of the car ans start shooting, cyclist first, lose child proves to be a harder target, and mayhem gives other child time to be hidden.
Anders7777
Re NLP, I said ‘reputable research’. Google indeed!
Anyway, this is all way off track. I’m going to wait for Craig to come up with something sensible.
Not too much available about International Security Ltd – director Liam Nammock. Wound up 2011 (but other firms continue,incluing the one “& Protection Ltd”) Notice no. 1281082 in the London Gazette. Bullet-proof 4x4s for hire…. might be handy.
Guess not connected with Silver Fern??
However, if this were a real police enquiry, wouldn’t ex-Air 2000 man be a prime suspect?? First one on the scene. Knew one of the dead. Reports the incident. Then gives a very weird interview. Someone said something along the lines that the police might have been “seeing how he shaped” passively.
Was the Swedish grandmother a mule? Focus on what the media is not focussing on. Sweden.
If anyone here produces any clinical data to prove that NLP definitely works then i will eat my computer. It is in exactly the same place as hypnotherapy, psychotherapy et al. There is absolutely no hard data that exists anywhere that proves effectiveness, that’s not to say they don’t work or that people will not claim or feel that they have had all sorts of benefits and mental and physical cures. Not my point though. I actually believe in hypnotherapy for example, some fascinating research as a replacement for general anaesthetic and other such applications but can i prove it, no ! As science isn’t even close to understanding the brain, let alone the brain body balance, it would be quite some feat to produce data proving effect. How would you know you’ve seen the effect if you don’t know what it is you’re looking for or even where you should be looking ? There are two important words that cover this whole area – theory and belief. No certainty, no fact.
@Komodo
“I.m ashamed to say the good guys at davidicke are well ahead of my game here.
Sharing the address of Silver Fern (Sussex), Martin’s company, is…
http://www.internationalsecurity.co.uk/contact-us.php
Don’t.”
——-
Just a small point, but if you check back on here, around 5.00pm yesterday, you’ll see that it was a post from me that first listed that information, it was copied from here by one of the many Icke fanboys that have hijacked this place and pasted over there.
Credit where credit is due. 🙂
The funny thing is that I pointed out it was basically an address of a firm of accountants or solicitors that was being used by dozens of companies as their ‘registered address’, that being the case those companies would not be operating from that address, it would just be a mail-drop for official documents and such like.
I went on to say, but if you want to get excited look at some of the companies registered and listed International Security together with the link to their ‘about us’ page.
And boy have the Icke fanboys got excited, drawing all sorts of conclusions, which I guess we have to accept as HARD DATA – lol.
@browneyedgal
SIC Code: 7420, Architectural & Engineering Activities & Consultancy
Where’s this from?
Companies House says “74909 – Other professional, scientific and technical activities not elsewhere classified”.
Silver Fern (Sussex) Ltd is a loss-making enterprise, entirely self-funded by its Directors (ie Mr & Mrs) to the tune of around £600,000.
If you want to check, its accounts can be downloaded from Companies House for £1.00.
@Watcher
Didn’t someone say last night on here, the mentally ill brother (in law? nephew?) might be found dead in the woods with a 7.65mm Skorpion in his hand
Actually, it was me, yesterday morning…
Ferret @ 13 Sep, 2012 – 7:44 am
How long before Haydar Thaher is found dead in the woods? With a single gunshot wound to the head, and a silenced 7.65mm pistol in his hand. Verdict will be suicide. Bullets from crime scene will match the weapon. Case closed.
NLP has failed every independent scientific test thrown at it. It’s used as an example of pseudo-science in universities and regularly appears on lists of discredited scientific inventions. Whilst some anti-science new agers might regard this as an endorsement it doesn’t alter the facts; it doesn’t work.
If you go with Anders’ ramblings for a moment how did the entity’s security apparatus succeed in getting its hit squad and victim(s)together at the same time in the same place?
And if, hypothesising even further, SAH was a Brit asset, protected by the UK’s security services, does this indicate overt co-operation with the entity’s security apparatus, or worse? Surely not a mole at the heart of the circus!?
No HARD FACTS, just pure speculation. But would this account for the preciptous arrival of 20 British military looking types at the scene so early on in the day.
‘You’re on a damned long road , George!’
A7777 buried by sundown, Acapulco sundowner the next day 🙂
Are we still discussing NLP?
* sigh *
There are plenty of scientific studies on NLP, some say it works, while the majority say it doesn’t.
http://www.sueknight.co.uk/Archives/Publications/Articles/NLP_Plausible.htm
So… take your pick.
Can we please close this now as utterly irrelevant?
Meanwhile, why not apply your *own* test to Brett Martin’s performance?
a) Did it have the ring of truth?
b) Did he behave in a way gave confidence he was telling the truth?
c) Did he say anything that would give rise to doubt he was telling the truth?
For me, it failed at (a). It simply didn’t ring true. Yes, he blinked a lot, which is often (but not always) a sign of lying. But I noticed that after I’d already lost confidence in what he was saying.
And contrary to unfair insinuations made here, I had not already made up my mind, and was genuinely open to being persuaded. But alas, he failed dismally.
I am not shocked by people in authority lying brazenly, and I don’t think any reasonable person could or should be either.
After all, it is an irrevocable fact that we have been lied by our own Prime Ministers about the Belgrano and WMD, and we have been lied to by Chief Constables about the killing of Jean-Charles de Menezes and Hillsborough, to mention but a few of the most glaring examples. (And all of these cases involved cover-ups involving multiple participants.)
My experience is that initially everyone shouts you down for being a “disbeliever” and calls you a tinfoil-hat-wearing-conspiracy-theorist, paranoid delusional, david-icke-lover and whatever else is the flavour of the day to try and discredit you.
But eventually opinion turns… and sometimes an official report comes out exposing the cover up. But it takes years, many years… 23 years in Hillsborough’s case. Gulf of Tomkin even longer.
How long will we have to wait for this one?
re the car doors being locked.
If the engine was off and the keys were out of the ignition the doors would centrally lock after a shirt while yes, if that function was switched on (you can switch it off though in my own car it isnt though I find it a damn nuisance because I dont know how to do it).
I’m pretty sure though that the central locking would never engage automatically if the engine was running, so the car door locks had to have been engaged manually.
I think Mollier was meeting Al-Hilli each day – Molliers wife is quoted as saying he went on the same ride everyday into a Mobile/Cell blackspot was BM there to follow them?
From the 1st day Maillaud seems to have given up on the killers like he knew that if they hadnt got them after the first hour they would be in Switz or Italy and probably back to their safe house or safe surroundings of their own consulate, that part has been conceded and he is now concentrating on the why?
Who was the target
Why
Where is the missing Roof rack piece
Why the whole family
What was the connection if any to Mollier
Why two taps to the head when they sprayed the car with 25 rounds
Who was the threat and why did it take Al-Hilli by surprise.
What is hidden Al-Hilli House
Why did the family have multiple passports
“And boy have the Icke fanboys got excited, drawing all sorts of conclusions, which I guess we have to accept as HARD DATA – lol.”
I stopped recommending this thead on Twitter days ago. It’s infested with wild conspiracy theories that have zero basis and literally zero evidence. People blink. People (especially those not used to being interviewed on TV) hold themselves differently, they’re stiff. They’re tense. They’re not “at home”. I saw nothing in that interview to suggest – much less prove – that RAF man was/is not legitimate.
And all this carry on about “the girl got out to let SM into the front seat”. Really?? How about she got out to pee??
And the mockery of “new arrivals” is just not acceptable. Not everyone who arrives with an opinion to offer is a “spook”!!!
I’ve had enough.
As for “Im just an ordinary housewife” who claims to have learned a lot in the past few days … clearly a sock puppet. And I’m beginning to think Tony might be too. Anyway … seeya
Who cares if there are Spooks, fair play to them id love to be sat where they are in Thames House, Pilsworth or Palace Barracks! as long as we keep to the main points and pick away at it we will come up with discrepancies and holes in the story, with the lack of resource and real info we arent going to solve this case, its fun trying to pick it apart and there are lots of parts of this story that we will never be in the public eye!
If there are anyone from the service here can you tell what this is all about?
If they wanted to make three weapons with the same ID marks they could, if they wanted to get out of the country they could, Mossad use Motor bikes they use this caliber weapon but is this too easy?
Is there any truth to the story of Ben Hanan being at a Heliport near by for 20 mins and left with three passengers?
@ nuid
I share your frustration. I know modding is thankless and far from easy, and that some stuff has been cleared up, but it would really help if the drunken ramblings, insults, repetition, unclear and unattributed quoting and so on could be deleted, or else parked elsewhere for anyone who actually wants to see it.
It undermines the credibility of the thread, obscures things, and quite possibly drives people away. And if left in place, it starts to grow, like untreated dry rot.
Dopey
Most modern high quality vehicles are set to automatically lock the doors when a specific set speed is reached. Usually about 10mph.
Reversing hard in reverse would activate this auto lock function.
Id say MODS delete the senseless posts it just means people re-reading lose interest and does not have any place here!
Also Mods Anders has asked for the list of visitors to this place for the last few days are you going to post? im sure they could cover their tracks if need be though! but would be interesting to see?
For those querying the credibility of Brett Martin (the RAF guy) this report in the Daily Mail, accounts for some of the anomalies raised (like his accent)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2202635/French-Alps-shootings-British-cyclist-speaks-horror-discovering-bodies-family-shot-dead.html
@Nuid
I stopped recommending this thead on Twitter days ago. It’s infested with wild conspiracy theories that have zero basis and literally zero evidence. People blink. People (especially those not used to being interviewed on TV) hold themselves differently, they’re stiff. They’re tense. They’re not “at home”. I saw nothing in that interview to suggest – much less prove – that RAF man was/is not legitimate.
You are, of course, entitled to your opinion about RAFman’s believability.
Are you saying that anyone who holds the opposite opinion is therefore a believer in “wild conspiracies that have zero basis”?
Or can you accept that some of us, with our own good reasons, believe RAFman is lying?
Incidentally, there is a body of scientific thought that excessive blinking indicates lying, for example:
Liars blink less frequently than normal during the lie, and then speed up to around eight times faster than usual afterwards.
The findings, reported in the Journal of Non-verbal Behaviour, means that blink rates could soon be used by professionals, such as the police and security forces, to tell when someone is being duplicitous.
Dr Sharon Leal, co-author of the study at Portsmouth University, said: “It is striking what different patterns in eye blinks emerged for liars and truth tellers.
“Such striking differences in behaviour between liars and truth tellers are rarely seen in deception research.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2589073/Liars-are-exposed-by-blinking.html
So I request you retract your claim that my belief is baseless (if that’s what you meant by your post).
I have to agree with Nuid (and many others).
Therefore (as the theory goes on here) I must be a “spook” !
The French authorities and media aren’t helping.
Mr Mollier took over Mr Martin ?
Mr Martin was behind Mr Mollier.
Mr Follier-Robin saw only the BMW that afternoon ?
But “Philippe the hiker” drove up the road.
And Mr Martin says he saw a motorbike and another vehicle.
However Philippe never passed any other vehicles
What happened to the roof rack ?
No one (in the media) has asked.
Why was glass also found to the “North” of the parking lot ?
A previous vehicle break in ? From the BMW ?
Why was the eldest daaughter out of the vehicle ?
You can open a central locked car…from the inside.
If so, why was she in the front seat of the car ?
The only seat available in a rushed exit (?)
Why did Mr Martin check the pulse of Mr Mollier ?
It is said he was shot in the torso and in the head.
What was Philippe doing there…on a Wednesday afternoon, with two female companions…spending the hight in a mountain chalet ?
(as reported by the French press).
Sure “everyone” could be lying !
…and I am a “spook” and a “shrill” !!!!
…and Elvis works in a chipshop in Fulham High Street !!!
But I am trying to apply logic.
Just wish “others” would.
@Dopey
Re: car doors being locked
My car doors automatically lock when car is in motion.
Presume it’s a safety feature that can be disabled/enabled.
I don’t recall BMW’s having motion central locking.
I seem to remember then having rear or all central locking feature.
And I am trying to recall if the central locking on the front pax door could be “over ruled” if you open it from the inside (pax side).
It is an “anti theft” feature. Or to secure children inside (in the rear seats)
I had a 535 in 1998. So trying to recall.
@sindbad @phoenix
I’m sure mine don’t lock. I’ll test it out at the weekend and get my dad to. If I dont post afterwards you’ll know the door opened and I fell out…
@james
listening to Brad’s interview again just now I got the impression he perhaps just saw the cyclist ahead of him. Since he’d seen him ahead “quite a way further back” he thought he’d maybe stopped for a rest when he himself reached that spot. So he doesnt mention being overtaken, just that the cyclist was ahead of him.
He can’t have been that much further behind however if he assumed the bike he saw belonged to Mollier, so I’m guessing he must have first seen Mollier at the start of that lane or saw Mollier turning into that lane to assume the bike ahead was his. He realised it wasnt perhaps a car accident when he saw that Mollier wasn’t near his bike. The bike was on the road (first thing he saw as he cycled towards the carpark), Mollier was in front of the car, but enough of a distance away from each other for Brett to assume he hadnt been knocked off his bike by a car.
Dopey.
Yes, Brett says he was ahead of him.
The original “released” news was he was overtaken.
Hence “odd”.
The media got “he was overtaken” from somewhere.
Hence my question.
…and Ferret (or rat boy !) please dont respond, it is soooo tiresome.
I looked up BMW safety features last night.
They will auto lock all doors 10 secs after setting off, there is also a post crash safety system that will unlock them (as well as turn on hazards and interior lights) after an impact.
Therefore we can assume the BMW wasn’t reversed into the bank with force as what killer would stop and turn off hazards, fumble around trying to find the internal light switch and re-lock the doors?
From the inside (my car) the central locking can be over ridden.
Safety feature I guess.
So, if the eldest is in the vehicle, she can get out by over riding the system.
After what went on, she gets out.
….and gets beaten.
So why not shot (again ?).
The gunman has a jam ? Has no more amo ?
Hear’s Brett but has not amo ?
…but then I assume Brett saw the motorbike and 4×4 further down the road ?