My post on the shootings in France has brought tens of thousands of people to this site – but not to read my dull contribution. People are coming to read the comments from other readers.
Today’s development of the bomb squad descending on the al-Hilli house does not in itself worry me enormously. You may recall the massive terror scare that was ramped up when some Muslim students in Manchester were found to own a bag of sugar.
In fact we have the opposite phenomenon today, with the spook-fed “security correspondents” on TV lining up to tell us it is probably just everyday household stuff. This deviation from the standard Islamophobic “Muslims = bombs” narrative is so startling it makes me wonder why the “move along, nothing to see here” line is being taken so quickly.
My own security services sources insist that al-Hilli was not a person of current interest to the UK intelligence agencies and was not involved in anything clandestine. I have no reason to disbelieve them. On the other hand, the limited and confusing information in the media is almost entirely from official sources. I find it very strange indeed how little attention has been paid to the murdered French cyclist, and how easily it is presumed he was just a passerby. Surely it is as likely he was the intended victim and the al-Hillis the accidental witnesses?
Please do read the comments on my first entry on the subject to see the debate unfettered by the censorship in the mainstream media. This is perhaps my favourite comment:
From Janesmith101
All comments regarding Sylvain, Al-Hilli and a possible nuclear link are being removed from sites I’ve posted on in The Guardian, Independent and Huffpo UK.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/sep/09/alps-killer-motive-baffles-police
Here was my comment, I added as a point of fact it was completely speculative and an unproven theory in a later comment, also removed.
Sylvain Mollier, the ‘passing’ cyclist, was in fact a nuclear metallurgist who worked for a french nuclear company called Cezus (a subsidiary of Areva). Cezus fabricates and processes zirconium into metal and nuclear grade zircoaloy for nuclear fuel assemblies – it also has other applications in aerospace such as components and ceramics for missiles and satellites. Mr Al-Hilli was also a skilled aerospace engineer, on what looks to be his first camping holiday.
What is the probability that two highly skilled engineers managed be at the same remote place, at the same time, yet still managed to end up dead as a result of what looks to be a military style assasination?
As someone else pointed out in The Independent comments, the deceased were found by a ‘retired’ RAF officer who, we assume, will recieve perpetual anonymity as a witness. If the police are looking for a motive, try an intercepted rendevous by a security service fixated on denying a hostile power illicit nuclear technology.
http://wrmea.org/component/content/article/162-1995-june/7823-israel-bombs-iraqs-osirak-nuclear-research-facility.html
The Huffington Post UK reports that this wasn’t the family’s first trip to the camp site. An earlier report had asked other camp site visitors whether they had seen the family before and they had replied they hadn’t. If this isn’t wasn’t the first visit by Al-Hilli, it might slightly increase the odds that he knew or had met Mollier before, this being the last in a series of rendevous of a transactional nature. Mollier lived and worked locally.
Again, I’m not sure of the truth of these reports, there is some very sloppy journalism, as there is always seems to be. I’ve read for example Mollier’s company Cevus descirbed as a steel firm something which it is patently not, but perhaps it may have been a detail lost in translation.
An interesting comment summing up some of the strange coincidences, at least, surrounding these murders. My other favourite comment calls me a “macchiavellian shill”.
I have only one thought of my own I want to add at the minute. Al-Hilli was a Shia muslim and had been on pilgrimage to Qoms in Iran. What if it is indeed true that he was in possession of no especial nuclear or defence secrets to pass on to the Iranians, but the Israelis thought that he was? The Israeli programme of assassination of scientists involved in Iran’s nuclear programme is a definite fact. It makes as much sense as anything else at the moment, as a possibility.
I am not saying that is what happened. But the directions in which the mainstream media is being so strenuously pointed by official sources, like the massacre of an entire family over an inheritance, are certainly no more inherently probable. Certainly as we are now told all the shots were from one gun, for the assassin to get each victim in the head with none of them being able to escape, indicates real proficiency with the weapon and a very high level of training.
As for the possibility of RAF-man lying, a study of an actual lier (not in an experimental situation), findings are: when lying, slightly more gaze aversion (1 sec, we are dealing with very small amounts of time here), slightly more hand-finger movements (ca 1 sec), slightly more pauses (0,5 sec), and slightly more non-ah disturbances (14% vs 7,8%).
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/1099-0720%28200103/04%2915:2%3C187::AID-ACP696%3E3.0.CO;2-A/pdf
But then again, if RAF as we saw in the interview isn’t the real mr RAF, than this of course counts for nothing.
In my opinion mr RAF in the interview is of course the real Raf man. He has been trained to tell the right thing, and along with that he is also sending a message to the shooter(s).
He is very affirmative in letting us know that he has never been witnessing anything like this before, and that he has no experience in these situations what so ever. What he is actually telling is the story of his own lack of knowledge, and that he is of no interest for the shooters.
When it comes to accusations from other members in this thread, all I can say is that I have other things to do than to follow this thread in an OCD way.
I also have a different approach than some of you asking for HARD DATA, namely to put the forms if pieces together before I fill it with content. If someone don’t approve of this, please feel free to skip my posts.
I do have a theory of HOW things have happened, that fits with every bit, but I don’t have an idea of why. This is why I wait with posting my idea.
@Suhayl & others
I see what you did there.
😉
You collapsed NLP with the scientific research into blinking/lying, and then used NLP as an easy target to ridicule them both. (Some people might call this the classic “straw man” technique.)
However, as you probably know, NLP has nothing whatsoever to do with the peer-reviewed scientific research carried out by Portsmouth University, which as stated above Liars blink less frequently than normal during the lie, and then speed up to around eight times faster than usual afterwards.
Surely you are not suggesting that any independent researcher should value your personal beliefs about blinking/lying over and above a peer-reviewed scientific paper?
If so, on what basis?
@Dopey
Thanks for the CERN/Torygraph link, and for the explanation of relevance. Appreciated, both.
@SameJ
That’s a good one!
🙂
If you are serious, though, rather than pulling my leg, I have never said anywhere that I agree with or subscribe to Anders’s theory, so I’m not sure why you would jump to that conclusion, and then try to use it to bash me. (“Straw Man” technique again, perhaps?)
However, I definitely don’t agree with you arbitrary “Anders bashing” – and the mods have told you to desist, so I’m not sure why you are allowed to carry on.
I’m sure no one here wants to restart the spooks/kooks war.
Peace out. (Or should that be “off”?!?)
😀
@Jen
I also have a different approach than some of you asking for HARD DATA, namely to put the forms if pieces together before I fill it with content. If someone don’t approve of this, please feel free to skip my posts.
Totally approve – I work the same way.
I do have a theory of HOW things have happened, that fits with every bit, but I don’t have an idea of why. This is why I wait with posting my idea.
Look forward to hearing it in due course.
@Ricky Tarr
@skymartinbrunt: French police looking for a British-registered black Mitsubishi Pajero 4×4 seen heading towards Swiss border #Annecy
Very interesting… if so, someone (no prizes for guessing who) must’ve seen, um, a… er… BLACK PAJERO… slightly more than they admitted on telly.
Right.
Now back to my A level studies in the “bleedin obvious”!
I think we need to read this diversionary piece just published before proceding…
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9543218/France-shooting-Zainab-al-Hilli-bound-for-UK-after-Alps-hospital-release.html
“by Telegraph reporters…”
Events referred to above by @Kathy and @GuyFawkes
Ferret, sorry about my lax moderation on this thread, but it lengthens faster than I can keep up with it, and there’s been so much mud-slinging that I gave up on it days ago. Grief, you lot are speculating about NLP and mirror-image potted palms now, eh? Has any consensus emerged?
French prosecutors have told ITV News that the search for a black Mitsubishi Pajero with British number plates is “not connected at all” with the French Alps shootings.
http://www.itv.com/news/story/2012-09-05/five-shot-dead-in-uk-car-in-france/
Thanks Clark.
🙂
Personally, I don’t think there will be any concensus. Perhaps ever. The clues are too disparate and lead off in all different directions.
And look at the JFK case. Some people still say “Lone Nut” while some say “Patsy”, with all manner of theories and names of putative assassins.
And that was almost 60 years ago!!!
😀
French prosecutors have told ITV News that the search for a black Mitsubishi Pajero with British number plates is “not connected at all” with the French Alps shootings.
Am I alone in finding that a bit strange? Surely you first catch the car, examine it for clues… and then decide if it has any connection to the case?
Perhaps it was a bad translation… maybe they really wanted to say “no KNOWN connection to the shootings”.
If so, then I jumped to an incorrect conclusion. Interesting to see what happens next…
One of the “lone nuts” in this story was found to be on institution at the moment of the killings:
http://lci.tf1.fr/france/faits-divers/tuerie-de-chevaline-il-n-y-a-pas-de-piste-suedoise-7524427.html
How can the hunt for the Black 4×4 now not be in connection with teh murder??? this is typical of this case, soon theyll come out and say the shooting didnt actually happen and it was just a filming of CSI Miami!!! One min the french police are HUNTING the 4×4 and then now they are but its nothing to do with the shooting??? will the real inspector clouseau please stand up?
From Ahmed Al-Saffar “via the FCO”(yesterday) :
“In the meantime, we would ask that the media understand that as a family we need time to grieve and we would therefore request that they respect our privacy at this intensely difficult time.”
i.e. Nothing to see here. Look away. Standard procedure to bury a fishy story.
Ahmed Al-Saffar – Ahmed Al-Saffar, the uncle of Saad Al-Hilli’s wife or Le frère de la grand-mère
@Ferret
“Good luck with the topic-shift to automatic central locking… can you pls explain exactly what the relevance is?”
@Dopey
“I think I started off the central locking vein. I mentioned yesterday about whether a parent would lock their car doors if their daughter was outside and a gunman was a few feet away”.
I must be a spook !
You can see why many people are being “turned off” by this site !
@James,
Seriously though, are you ridiculing the idea that the secret services are present here?
I mean, do you really think MI6 would ignore third most influential political blog in the UK?
And do you think that (if here) they would not use well-established techniques to try and “turn” the conversation (to use the least inflammatory word I can think of)?
I am NOT saying that you are a member of the secret services – or that any *particular* person here is. But I am saying it is highly likely that at least *some* of the participants here work for the government.
It would be naieve to think otherwise.
So… do you agree? Or disagree?
Has everybody scene the video, Brett Martin , the director’s cut? Note especially the last minute or two. But even that doesn’t start at the beginning – how long is the complete interview, and where is the start?
Full 12.49 mins video in one piece here…
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4536686/British-cyclist-who-found-Alps-bodies-says-scene-like-CSI.html#ixzz26RvlDlgL
It would seem that the french cyclist was heading for a pre arranged clandestine meeting with Saad. If this were the case, why then would the french cyclist overtake the RAF ‘cyclist’ (as the RAF ‘cyclist’ claims)? According to the timing given by the RAF ‘cyclist’, this would have meant the RAF ‘cyclist’ arriving during the prearranged meeting? Hard to believe that the french cyclist would have exposed himself to this! The RAF man’s story’ doesn’t ring true – further reinforced by his seemingly scripted TV performance!
@Ferret
Here is the link https://www.duedil.com/company/05708870/silver-fern-sussex-limited
SIC Code: 7420, Architectural & Engineering Activities & Consultancy
About Silver Fern (Sussex) Limited
Silver Fern (Sussex) Limited was founded on 14 Feb 2006 and has its registered office in London. The organisation’s status is active, and they have 4 associated directors – 3 are current, and 1 are former. William Brett Martin is the Silver Fern (Sussex) Limited’s sole shareholder with a total of 1.00 shares. The company has no known group companies. The business has assets of £213,434 plus liabilities of £644,207. As of their last financial statement, they had £22,946 in cash reserves. Silver Fern (Sussex) Limited reported a gross profit of £43,512 in their latest financial records. The company’s current net worth is £-57,456, and the value of their shareholders’ interest is £-57,456.
Associated Directors :
Theresa Valerie Martin (53)
Director, No Function
8 Mar 2009 – Present (3 years, 6 months, 6 days)
Current
Gc Secretarial Services Ltd
Company Secretary, No Function
14 Feb 2006 – Present (6 years, 7 months)
Current
William Brett Martin (53)
Director, Director
14 Feb 2006 – Present (6 years, 7 months)
Current
Rwl Registrars Limited
Company Secretary, No Function
14 Feb 2006 – 14 Feb 2006 ()
Past
Ferret…probably agree.
But then why “play into their hands”.
Like…the above post.
The Brit cyclist said Mollier was “ahead”.
If everyone runs around like headless chickens, then they have achieved what they want to.
Makes everyone who thinks this is “fishy” look like cranks.
@BrowneyedGal
Thanks for that. I wonder why the classification doesn’t tie up with Companies House? (Nothing necc sinister, just asking…)
Initially what caught my eye was the “Engineering” bit… which is what got me interested…
The statistical chances of two nuclear engineers ending up in the same clearing must be very low (didn’t Nuid say p=0.00001?)
But the chances of THREE… would be astronomically small.
But to be honest I think this is a dead end. The most recent annual accounts filed at Companies House say they did futures & options trading, flight simulations training, and property investments.
The Psychiatrist, Liliane Daligand. Quoted in
Rhône-Alpes France 3 “Tuerie de Haute-Savoie : quels éléments peut apporter la petite fille de quatre ans aux enquêteurs ?”
“On peut penser que certains enfants qui sont dans des charniers comme ça vont faire le mort, donc elle ne bouge plus pour être épargnée. Certains vont se réfugier dans le sommeil. Je peux imaginer que cette petite fille, un moment, a dormi durant ces huit heures et c’est un refuge dans lequel elle s’est isolée” …..”Elle peut parler des cris qu’elle a entendu, du sang, des couleurs, elle peut parler du bruit, des figures ou des personnages qu’elle a vu”
Also in this YouTube video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhEqqghjQTI
L. Daligand est professeur de médecine légale à l’université Claude-Bernard Lyon I, psychiatre des hôpitaux au Centre hospitalier Lyon Sud.
Part of the official narrative??? Professor of “legal medicine” speaking…
@Felix
Although your link to the directors cut doesn’t show the beginning of that interview, the ending is longer than was originally broadcast.
There was no mention of him re Press outside his home and appearing on TV so that he could dispell some of the ‘myths’ being touted about the case.
BBC News 24 cut the interview when he mentions “Anything that can be done to reign these people in that walk around our society the better really” 11.00minutes elapsed from your link
Ferret: “The statistical chances of two nuclear engineers ending up in the same clearing must be very low (didn’t Nuid say p=0.00001?)”
I very much doubt that postulation and would like to see the premises for the calculation.
How did the Emergency Services already know that this had happaned and made their way up the hill as BM was on his way down?
@Ricki Brett stated that they had already heard about the murders on their radionet
@James
probably agree.
First of all, thanks for answering directly. But… only “probably”? Can I ask, what’s your reservation? The way I see it, they’d hardly be doing their job if they *weren’t* here.
Imagine…
PM: So, what’s the public mood like on the blogs these days?
Head of MI6: Errrr… I dunno…
PM: You’re fired
But then why “play into their hands”. Like… the above post.
Sorry, not following your thinking there. Can you elaborate? I know they are reading too, so… but hey.
If everyone runs around like headless chickens, then they have achieved what they want to. Makes everyone who thinks this is “fishy” look like cranks.
To be honest, I think most people will think this is cranky anyway. And we will argue amongst ourselves… which they will attempt to instigate/exacerbate. What can you do.
The Brit cyclist said Mollier was “ahead”.
What you mean right after where the interviewer said “I understand you were tired…”? Does this conflict with something he already said, ie being overtaken? If so I don’t agree really… don’t you think he could have just skipped the overtaking bit and jumped straight to the bit where he was ahead (because he’d just overtaken him)?
@ReCognito
Ferret: “The statistical chances of two nuclear engineers ending up in the same clearing must be very low (didn’t Nuid say p=0.00001?)”
I very much doubt that postulation and would like to see the premises for the calculation.
I don’t know because I didn’t do the calculation, it was Nuid I think (might be wrong on that – anyone could check the back blog if they want).
I’m sure the chance of two nuclear engineers meeting by random chance is LOW, though, wouldn’t you say? Of course not impossible – just very unlikely.
@MontyW @Straw44Berry et al
The witness who saw the white vehicle coming down the hill on the wrong side and had to swerve to avoid it, is INTERVIEWED briefly in this French YouTube video at 1.30, wearing South Beach Florida t-shirt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFlQFPB6xA0
But it is a little white car
Source: Le1245. She must be Sylvie Lecoeur who spoke to the Sun newspaper.
Eyewitness Sylvie Lecoeur, 49, told how a man driving a white car minutes after the assassination looked “agitated” while speeding through Chevaline.
She said: “He was coming down the hill on the wrong side, and I was coming back up the hill towards my house on the right. I was terrified because the car was right in front of me.
“At the last minute he braked and swerved and so did I so we just avoided hitting each other. It was a small white car, maybe a Peugeot 306 or 206.
“There was one man behind the wheel. He looked very agitated. He was driving so fast, as though he was in a car chase.” [Express, Sept 8 ]
The Telegraph reported on the same evening, 5 Sept: Residents reportedly saw a white car leaving the area at speed between 3pm and 4pm.
Stangely, she quite resembles the witness to the 30 seconds of automatic fire.
Was somebody asking for good images of the crime scene (after clearance)?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuyzYEFg-rc
See also related video from same uploader
“Les lieux du crime accessibles à Chevaline”
(can’t hear a word…)
I think all this “is Brett Martin lying” is getting us nowhere. Even if NLP is any more than a pseudoscience it would be more appropriately applied to actual first interview with the police – which of course we have no access to. This was him giving an interview that was based on his written account (whether the official police account or his own)so obvious his response will be very different. Also the discrepancies between his testimony and the other french cyclist are what you expect from eyewitnesses coming across a crime scene. Witnesses unconsciously make up most of what they remember from the first few darting eye movements round the scene so even the fact one saw blood the other not is within normal eyewitness behaviour – which is that eyewitnesses at a crime scene are almost always terrible contradictory witnesses. Now if their testimonies matched exactly I would think something was up.
@ Felix – thanks for the extended video link. Personally, I find BM 100% credible.
Interesting to hear that it takes him 30 mins from the bottom of the hill (I suppose he means the start of the forestry road) to cycle the 3.2 kms up the 1 in 14 hill to the car park. At some point, neither near the beginning nor near the end, the 4×4 passed him coming the other way followed a little while later by the motorbike. There was nothing remarkable about either vehicle. In other words, they were not going particularly fast.
Note also that when someone is in a high stress, fast moving situation, time seems to elongate. Things that happen in seconds feel like they took minutes. This will be familiar to anyone who’s been in a car accident. I think you can hear the effect of this phenomenon in the BM interviews.
Ferret: “I’m sure the chance of two nuclear engineers meeting by random chance is LOW, though, wouldn’t you say? Of course not impossible – just very unlikely.”
Sure it’s low. But first of all to do the calgulation we have to know the following: Do we know that Mollier was an “educated” engineer? And do we know that Saad was a “nuclear” engineer? And how do we explicit define a “nuclear engineer”? And also: is it brought into the calculation that the Chevaline-area is an area with a great nuclear industri – and therefore perhapse floaded with nuclear engineers?