My post on the shootings in France has brought tens of thousands of people to this site – but not to read my dull contribution. People are coming to read the comments from other readers.
Today’s development of the bomb squad descending on the al-Hilli house does not in itself worry me enormously. You may recall the massive terror scare that was ramped up when some Muslim students in Manchester were found to own a bag of sugar.
In fact we have the opposite phenomenon today, with the spook-fed “security correspondents” on TV lining up to tell us it is probably just everyday household stuff. This deviation from the standard Islamophobic “Muslims = bombs” narrative is so startling it makes me wonder why the “move along, nothing to see here” line is being taken so quickly.
My own security services sources insist that al-Hilli was not a person of current interest to the UK intelligence agencies and was not involved in anything clandestine. I have no reason to disbelieve them. On the other hand, the limited and confusing information in the media is almost entirely from official sources. I find it very strange indeed how little attention has been paid to the murdered French cyclist, and how easily it is presumed he was just a passerby. Surely it is as likely he was the intended victim and the al-Hillis the accidental witnesses?
Please do read the comments on my first entry on the subject to see the debate unfettered by the censorship in the mainstream media. This is perhaps my favourite comment:
From Janesmith101
All comments regarding Sylvain, Al-Hilli and a possible nuclear link are being removed from sites I’ve posted on in The Guardian, Independent and Huffpo UK.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/sep/09/alps-killer-motive-baffles-police
Here was my comment, I added as a point of fact it was completely speculative and an unproven theory in a later comment, also removed.
Sylvain Mollier, the ‘passing’ cyclist, was in fact a nuclear metallurgist who worked for a french nuclear company called Cezus (a subsidiary of Areva). Cezus fabricates and processes zirconium into metal and nuclear grade zircoaloy for nuclear fuel assemblies – it also has other applications in aerospace such as components and ceramics for missiles and satellites. Mr Al-Hilli was also a skilled aerospace engineer, on what looks to be his first camping holiday.
What is the probability that two highly skilled engineers managed be at the same remote place, at the same time, yet still managed to end up dead as a result of what looks to be a military style assasination?
As someone else pointed out in The Independent comments, the deceased were found by a ‘retired’ RAF officer who, we assume, will recieve perpetual anonymity as a witness. If the police are looking for a motive, try an intercepted rendevous by a security service fixated on denying a hostile power illicit nuclear technology.
http://wrmea.org/component/content/article/162-1995-june/7823-israel-bombs-iraqs-osirak-nuclear-research-facility.html
The Huffington Post UK reports that this wasn’t the family’s first trip to the camp site. An earlier report had asked other camp site visitors whether they had seen the family before and they had replied they hadn’t. If this isn’t wasn’t the first visit by Al-Hilli, it might slightly increase the odds that he knew or had met Mollier before, this being the last in a series of rendevous of a transactional nature. Mollier lived and worked locally.
Again, I’m not sure of the truth of these reports, there is some very sloppy journalism, as there is always seems to be. I’ve read for example Mollier’s company Cevus descirbed as a steel firm something which it is patently not, but perhaps it may have been a detail lost in translation.
An interesting comment summing up some of the strange coincidences, at least, surrounding these murders. My other favourite comment calls me a “macchiavellian shill”.
I have only one thought of my own I want to add at the minute. Al-Hilli was a Shia muslim and had been on pilgrimage to Qoms in Iran. What if it is indeed true that he was in possession of no especial nuclear or defence secrets to pass on to the Iranians, but the Israelis thought that he was? The Israeli programme of assassination of scientists involved in Iran’s nuclear programme is a definite fact. It makes as much sense as anything else at the moment, as a possibility.
I am not saying that is what happened. But the directions in which the mainstream media is being so strenuously pointed by official sources, like the massacre of an entire family over an inheritance, are certainly no more inherently probable. Certainly as we are now told all the shots were from one gun, for the assassin to get each victim in the head with none of them being able to escape, indicates real proficiency with the weapon and a very high level of training.
Even if NLP is any more than a pseudoscience
What, AGAIN with the NLP bullsh*t?!?
Blinking, lying, scientific study. Hello???
eyewitnesses at a crime scene are almost always terrible contradictory witnesses
On what basis do you say this – are you in criminology?
Personally I don’t believe this for one minute. I would expect reliable eyewitness accounts to agree on the major, important details – otherwise cross-examination would have a field day with them and juries would have “reasonable doubt”.
@ Felix again – another great find! The original interview on video of the lady witnessing the small white car. The interview is captioned as “An inhabitant of Chevaline.”
Driving dangerously on the wrong side of the road would be indicative of a UK driver!
Start with wikipedia if you want
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyewitness_identification
then
http://www.simplypsychology.org/eyewitness-testimony.html
and look up the studies mentioned in it.
and any search will show the mountain of data about this.
The evidence (albeit mainly from US studies) is that eyewitnesses are very good at identifying guns or other weapons … much less so about who was holding them and who was present and who had been injured or not at a scene or who said what. I did study criminology at university but have not pursued it as a career.
OK, thanks… interesting…
Also let’s not forget that the murder scene car park is not the end of the road; from Felix’s link (0:51) you can see the signpost says No Vehicles (except residents and forestry service).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuyzYEFg-rc
A quick one to Ferret
I say “probably” because I don’t know.
Do I trust “them” ?
Not a chance.
Why ?
To name but a few the Gulf of Tonkin incident, JFK and the Zapruder film, WMD and our own Mr Blair….etc
And, why do I try to make sense of the crime scene so much ?
Answer. With JFK everyone looked to the “who” and “why”.
The “did they, didn’t they” got lost.
They did. Without a doubt. And shoud be held in account because of that alone. How do I know this ?
The crime scene. The film “they” gave was so heavily “messed with” it’s unbelievable.
BUT…they had everyone looking the other way. At the “motive”.
Here “maybe” it’s the same. Everyone is looking at “why”.
May “industrial espionage” that could have lead to the discovery of other “political espionage” !
If the “crime” doesn’t look right….then they will have to keep changed “the facts” for it to “fit” the questions people are asking.
Do I now make sense ?
MontyW
It’s certainly not the end of the road !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2BTtiv6xJk
This is a tourist filming from the Point de Velan.
The first part picks out the Combre D’Ire.
But notice the tracks to cabins and houses all over the mountains.
And the 4×4’s and pick up trucks.
A 4×4 would be very common.
Is all this leading away from the motorbike, the favoured hit “vehicle” of the IRA…and many others.
Stick one of them in the back of a lorry…and you’re across the border, no problem.
Apologies if this has been gone over before… from Ex-RAF man’s interview, as reported by The Guardian – my italics
Brett Martin, 53, a former RAF pilot from Sussex, said: “As I got a little bit closer, a very young child stumbled out on to the road and at first I thought she was actually just playing with her sibling because she sort of looked, from a distance, as if she was falling over, larking about like a child would.
“However, as I approached her it was obvious that she was quite badly injured and there was a lot of blood on her,” he told the BBC. “As I got even closer, I then saw the car with its engine revving and its wheels spinning. It seemed at that moment in time like there had been a terrible car accident.”
He said he had soon realised he was at the scene of a shooting. “I’ve never seen people who have been shot before.”
1. Sibling?
2. Surely he would have heard the car long before he saw it.
3. He’s former RAF pilot, is this consistent with his training?
…
Maybe a stupid question – but I could not find a solution for this discrepancy.
The first emergency call was received at 3:48 pm.
However, it is stated here about the French hiker, Philippe D., and his friends:
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/an-alpine-murder-mystery–why-were-the-alhillis-shot-dead-8125292.html
“As they approached Chevaline at around 4.10pm, a “terrified cyclist” came hurtling towards them.”
4:10pm is later than 3:48pm.
The RAF guy could not place an emergency call before Philippe D. arrived at the spot. Philippe D. could not do it before 4:10pm.
So: who placed the emergency call at 3:48pm?
@james
Mine could on a 535 (driver side) (never tried the pax side).
It was a previous car many years ago.
Just tried in my car just now.
A large estate….with a “history of safety”.
…and it did.
From the inside, with the doors locked (central locking), the pax door from the inside could be opened.
Not (of course) from the outside.
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Figures! You’ve probably been driving the shitty old clapped out Volvo for years and have no clue what all the switches do and what the designers intended.
Some people here are so dim they’d have trouble tying their shoelaces.
Some thoughts, in no particular order:
My Merc V8 has manual central looking from the front pod, by the gear lever. It also auto locks all doors when you manually lock any of the front two doors from the ***outside***. Locks the boot too in this manoeuvre, switches on the alarm after 10 seconds.
It also has electric window disable in the front pod, which I always use when my child is in the back, for obvious reasons; 4 year old’s might want to exit a window whilst you’re not looking, you never know. So I always use the feature.
When parked up, and even driving, I always have all doors locked.
France is notorious for crime, car jacking is not unheard of. If I was sitting in a very lonely place in the woods (why? to meet someone James et al!) for over an hour, I’d make damned sure to have all the doors locked, windows rolled up, and a nice temp set on the aircon. I’d make sure the kids and adults went wee wee before the meet.
I’d also park in such a way as to be able to exit PDQ if needed in an emergency, i.e. reverse in, and wait.
I decrease the possibility Zainab was outside on a toilet break in the bushes, and later got hit by a stray bullet. But if it was me, and she wanted to go, I’d have told her to hold it in, woods can be dangerous places – ask Dr David Kelly.
So having taken precautions, he lets the girl out?
Right.
More I think about it, she was inside and the team tried not to hit her, but she caught a stray, ***inside***. Screaming the woods down, so she was pistol whipped to shut her up.
Team scarpers.
And whilst I remember, someone yesterday mentioned that Zeena must have been almost delirious with thirst after 8 yours in a cramped position with no water.
I don’t buy this 8 hours “missing time” at all.
Also whilst I remember, there seems to be almost a complete absence of blood spatter in the photos I’ve studied. You’d think the interior and windows, especially the intact windscreen, would be drenched with blood.
I said all along that RAFman did not break any window AT ALL, as M’Llaud kept bigging the hero up for. They forgot that the fairytale dictated two shots in the driver’s window, the good ‘ol Daily Mail double-tap (groan) – whereas in fact a lonely wandering fart would have collapsed it. RAFman being said fart, made sure on the TELLY yesterday — made VERY sure — to cover that angle, I trust you all noticed, and glad to know the BOYZ are reading this thread for tips.
Sylvain was shot 7 times, yet hardly any blood on the gravel. RAFman pretends he moved the body, dragging it, yet no apparent trail of blood.
Apparently in the Smiley’s People world, blood does not exist.
Exterior or interior.
Children disappear for 8 hours. A child who SHOULD be in the car when it was sprayed most expertly, was in fact spared.
And apparently has made a remarkable recovery already!
Both of them safe and sound, eh?
Who’d have thunk it, eh?!?
Lastly, when approaching other cars in stopping traffic, I also leave a 1-2 length gap so that I can accelerate around if needed, robbery or there is a hold-up ahead, a breakdown, and the dimbulbs are all so squashed together they cannot go around.
Anders zooms out and overtakes the lot, foot down, HARD DATA style!
But that’s just me.
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I think you are purposely trying to sound like an idiot James, and you are succeeding wonderfully, bar the few regular mistakes you make, which can be spotted miles away.
Carry on.
@ferrett have the police stated they didnt do GSR test or similair? If not im sure they were happy with evidence at the time.You think they just said “thanks for ringing ,on your way now”?
A cyclist hitman with no gun? Oh but then he had assistance from a motorbike/4×4 team who took the gun away but left the murderer!!
Brilliant. *rollseyes*
Good footage of the “bank” against which the car was allegedly in reverse, burning rubber, overheating engine…
@1.02 here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKUcUn7qvfA
What is holding back the car?? Nothing which I can see.
BM checks out as a person, but I just don’t buy the vehicle scenario as told.
@Vermillion “his written account”
Really? The guy was allegedly in a safe house from day 1. Where did his statement come from? Why was he in a safe house? Nobody knew who he was or where he was. He could have gone about his daily business in Brighton, South Kensington or wherever and nobody would have been any the wiser about “ex-RAF” man. (or retired commercial Pilot). He is speaking to the script, as one would expect. People here say he is telling the truth apart from what he leaves out. What is he leaving out?
He was only pushed into the limelight because the story as told from day 1 was quite improbable *and stank of high level intervention from the off, a subject quietly dropped…) and was getting more rediculous by the day. And still is.
@CD
Hard to understand how BM didn’t hear the gunshots when people who were further away from the scene did.
Similarly, in such a quiet spot he would surely have heard the car engine before he saw the car.
@felix
However, if this were a real police enquiry, wouldn’t ex-Air 2000 man be a prime suspect??
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Absolutely.
First one on the scene. Knew one of the dead. Reports the incident. Then gives a very weird interview. Someone said something along the lines that the police might have been “seeing how he shaped” passively.
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Last point – I don’t buy that at all. Last thing they wanted to do was wheel out RAFman. Hans Christian Anderson of course knew everyone would be using NLP and other techniques, blink rates, PUPIL SIZE with the right equipment (adrianna), et cetera, but they were forced to do it by blogs such as this, and they had no option but take a gamble.
Was the Swedish grandmother a mule? Focus on what the media is not focussing on. Sweden.
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Good thinking Batman! 🙂
I know James. Nothing wrong with Volvo’s…btw is it a brown one?
@felix
Silver Fern (Sussex) Ltd is a loss-making enterprise, entirely self-funded by its Directors (ie Mr & Mrs) to the tune of around £600,000.
If you want to check, its accounts can be downloaded from Companies House for £1.00.
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Great work! 😉
Someone’s telling porkies.
Watcher and Co. keep trying to say 55PG is just a mail drop, but we all know it isn’t just a mail drop, I’d wager they all use the same firm of spooky Accountants, and it is sounding like RAFman and missus run a front company. 😉
A front for what, I wonder? 😉
Oooh ! Two insults !
Your bipolar traits aren’t well hidden !
“I’d also park in such a way as to be able to exit PDQ if needed in an emergency, i.e. reverse in, and wait”.
And the glass in the opporsite side of the carpark ?
No offence, but I am a car and motorbike enthusiast, and wouldn’t be seen dead in a Volvo. 🙂
@Paddy. Great point. The link is the Guardian daily blog (spooky as ever)
The public prosecutor, Eric Maillaud, begins by describing the events as “traumatic”.
The phone call received by the emergency services was made by a British cyclist at 3.48pm, he says.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/06/french-alps-shooting-live
But when Philppe D allegedly emerges from the woodwork, Telegraph Sept 11 (France shooting: new witness describes horror of murder scene), the story seems to contradict the earlier one:
A few seconds later, he [Philippe D, who miraculously COULD get mobile reception) went down the slope a few yards to phone the emergency services. The prosecutor said they received the first call at 3.48pm.
The prosecutor doesn’t exactly say that Philippe D made the first call!
unnamed British RAF veteran came careering down the path.
So, it was up, down,(Brett M) up down,(Philippe D) then a phone call. That can’t be the first phone call.
I am getting Dr Kelly deja vu here. Perhaps Philippe D needs to make a statement beside the pot plant and wardrobe.
Car parks ALWAYS contain broken glass.
It is the nature of car parks. 😉
I haven’t mentioned Princes Gate at all, let alone stated it’s just a mail drop. Please can on topic rather than sticks and stones …
@Felix @Paddy What about RAF man using a sat phone straight to Geneva at 3.48pm ?
Further point re interview quoted above…
It is nigh impossible to make it fit with the interview given by Philippe D. – the shortly before 4pm man – re blood, injuries etc.
BM is supposedly part resident in France yet he couldn’t cobble together enough French to say four dead?
If he is a bystander he’s been reminded of his pension rights, his duty to Q&C etc and briefed on what to say. If anyone else had been a bystander in such a situation they would have been told not to leave the and had their passport taken. Yet this man is back in Blighty toute suite. Any patriotic French policeman on the case must be grinding their teeth in frustration.
RAFman said as he set off back down he saw Phillipe about 300 to 400 yards away coming up.
Phillipe said they went further back down to make the phone call. They then decided (Phillipe’s idea) to drive back up to look at the scene. Once they’d had their fill of that (parking ready for a sharp getaway if needed) they decided to go back down again incase the shooter was still hanging about. As they were on their way back down fire service, ambulances and two cop cars passed them at rapid speed as THEY went up.
RAFman said a cop told him afterwards they (the convoy who arrived) knew from radionet about some murderous activity. Its not clear if they intercepted the emergency call, or knew via some other means.
At the first press conf the prosecutor said words to the effect that the fire services were called “and also the gendarme”.
@felix and paddy.
Great stuff! I’ve had the Kelly/Diana feeling from day one, minute one, but that’s just me. 😉
At some point we need to put together a proper timeline on this thread. I haven’t done it yet, as one or two already have done so, a very good stab, perhaps now is the time to cut and paste that one in and everyone put in their tuppence worth?
Sound like a plan? 🙂
An earlier post also addresses this HOWLER! 🙂
Originally Posted by molliemallone
What a surprise… the bomb squad have left the Al-Hilli home and the cordon lifted!
Is it just me, or does the ‘workshop’ look like nothing more than a shed? If SAH was worried enough to have electronic locks and some sort of booby trap protecting it (alluded to on BBC news) surely it would have been a bit more sturdy than a wooden shed!
Re your timeline Anders (thank you for posting it), I have a question…
If RAF man was overtaken at 15:43 and got to the scene at 15:48, that is only 5 mins, during which time Mollier got far enough ahead of him that he didn’t hear any shots being fired? Has it been reported how far away from the scene of the killings RAF man was when he was overtaken by the cyclist and witnessed the vehicles?
I would have thought that if he was only overtaken 5 minutes before finding them all, he would only have been a short distance behind Mollier, and therefore would have been able to hear the shots (they were heard by someone else, so no silencer used). Looking at what has been reported, it seems the track was uphill, and looking at various cycling forums, it would seem that a very good uphill speed is about 16kmh (10mph) vs average at 8kmh (5mph).
If Mollier had been travelling at 16kmh, he would have covered the following distances over the 5 minutes…
after 1 minutes 267meters (just over 0.16 of a mile)
after 2 minutes 534meters
after 3 minutes 800meters
after 4 minutes 1068meters
after 5 minutes 1335 meters (just over 0.8 miles)
If RAF man was travelling at 8km/hr, he would have covered the following distances over 5 minutes…
after 1 minutes 133.5meters (just over 0.08 of a mile)
after 2 minutes 267meters
after 3 minutes 400meters
after 4 minutes 534meters
after 5 minutes 667.5meters (just over 0.4 miles)
If RAF man was only 667.5 meters away from the killing site when he was overtaken, Mollier would have arrived at the site after 2.28 minutes. After 2.28minutes, RAF man would have travelled 320meters, placing him only 330 meters (1/5 of a mile!) behind him, surely he would have heard the shots over that distance?!
If there was only one gun (as we are now being told) Mollier must have been shot first as he too would have heard the shots being fired over the 30 seconds if he was still cycling up the hill, and surely would have turned around ASAP!
Sorry it’s so long winded!!
Absolutely BRILLIANT stuff MM!!!
during which time Mollier got far enough ahead of him that he didn’t hear any shots being fired?
I’ve always said, RAFman is lying, I’m a keen mountain biker too, and when someone overtakes me I get annoyed and try and keep up, RAFman would probably be the same being a Type-A Pilot doncha know, so anyways my gut instinct was he wouldnt be far behind.
Now your brilliant work has placed him at 333 metres (I like 333, the bastards like it too!)
Great stuff!
@Felix:
Thanks for noticing.
And considering all those ups and downs by RAF man Brett Martin and Philippe D., we may assume that the emergency call by Philippe D. was placed clearly after 4.10pm.
So, it is even more strange that the police was on the spot already at 4.20 pm (I do not remember exactly where that came from – Daily Mail?)
@Watcher: a sat phone call to Geneva would just add one more speculation without any evidence. What did the RAF man himself say about his exact arrival time?
@Felix @Paddy What about RAF man using a sat phone straight to Geneva at 3.48pm ?
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I always said he would have a .mil phone and done exactly that. He couldn’t call 112 with it or it would be traced. Perhaps Geneva or Paris field stations thought sod it, we’ll make a call anyway and get help PDQ for RAFman and 2 kids?
RAFman defo said in his interview he had a cellphone, which did not work.
@C,D Brits in general aren’t world renowned for their linguistic skills, most of us just say whatever we are trying to say louder.
“and when someone overtakes me I get annoyed”
That’s the Bipolar !
I fly …and it would actually be the reverse.
He was after all a check pilot.
Not bipolar