My post on the shootings in France has brought tens of thousands of people to this site – but not to read my dull contribution. People are coming to read the comments from other readers.
Today’s development of the bomb squad descending on the al-Hilli house does not in itself worry me enormously. You may recall the massive terror scare that was ramped up when some Muslim students in Manchester were found to own a bag of sugar.
In fact we have the opposite phenomenon today, with the spook-fed “security correspondents” on TV lining up to tell us it is probably just everyday household stuff. This deviation from the standard Islamophobic “Muslims = bombs” narrative is so startling it makes me wonder why the “move along, nothing to see here” line is being taken so quickly.
My own security services sources insist that al-Hilli was not a person of current interest to the UK intelligence agencies and was not involved in anything clandestine. I have no reason to disbelieve them. On the other hand, the limited and confusing information in the media is almost entirely from official sources. I find it very strange indeed how little attention has been paid to the murdered French cyclist, and how easily it is presumed he was just a passerby. Surely it is as likely he was the intended victim and the al-Hillis the accidental witnesses?
Please do read the comments on my first entry on the subject to see the debate unfettered by the censorship in the mainstream media. This is perhaps my favourite comment:
From Janesmith101
All comments regarding Sylvain, Al-Hilli and a possible nuclear link are being removed from sites I’ve posted on in The Guardian, Independent and Huffpo UK.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/sep/09/alps-killer-motive-baffles-police
Here was my comment, I added as a point of fact it was completely speculative and an unproven theory in a later comment, also removed.
Sylvain Mollier, the ‘passing’ cyclist, was in fact a nuclear metallurgist who worked for a french nuclear company called Cezus (a subsidiary of Areva). Cezus fabricates and processes zirconium into metal and nuclear grade zircoaloy for nuclear fuel assemblies – it also has other applications in aerospace such as components and ceramics for missiles and satellites. Mr Al-Hilli was also a skilled aerospace engineer, on what looks to be his first camping holiday.
What is the probability that two highly skilled engineers managed be at the same remote place, at the same time, yet still managed to end up dead as a result of what looks to be a military style assasination?
As someone else pointed out in The Independent comments, the deceased were found by a ‘retired’ RAF officer who, we assume, will recieve perpetual anonymity as a witness. If the police are looking for a motive, try an intercepted rendevous by a security service fixated on denying a hostile power illicit nuclear technology.
http://wrmea.org/component/content/article/162-1995-june/7823-israel-bombs-iraqs-osirak-nuclear-research-facility.html
The Huffington Post UK reports that this wasn’t the family’s first trip to the camp site. An earlier report had asked other camp site visitors whether they had seen the family before and they had replied they hadn’t. If this isn’t wasn’t the first visit by Al-Hilli, it might slightly increase the odds that he knew or had met Mollier before, this being the last in a series of rendevous of a transactional nature. Mollier lived and worked locally.
Again, I’m not sure of the truth of these reports, there is some very sloppy journalism, as there is always seems to be. I’ve read for example Mollier’s company Cevus descirbed as a steel firm something which it is patently not, but perhaps it may have been a detail lost in translation.
An interesting comment summing up some of the strange coincidences, at least, surrounding these murders. My other favourite comment calls me a “macchiavellian shill”.
I have only one thought of my own I want to add at the minute. Al-Hilli was a Shia muslim and had been on pilgrimage to Qoms in Iran. What if it is indeed true that he was in possession of no especial nuclear or defence secrets to pass on to the Iranians, but the Israelis thought that he was? The Israeli programme of assassination of scientists involved in Iran’s nuclear programme is a definite fact. It makes as much sense as anything else at the moment, as a possibility.
I am not saying that is what happened. But the directions in which the mainstream media is being so strenuously pointed by official sources, like the massacre of an entire family over an inheritance, are certainly no more inherently probable. Certainly as we are now told all the shots were from one gun, for the assassin to get each victim in the head with none of them being able to escape, indicates real proficiency with the weapon and a very high level of training.
“I think Israelis, criminals or Iraqis might not baulk at beating a child to get info. So might many others.”
I don’t think there was time to beat anyone for info. I think the girl was shot while running away, and then clubbed on the head for good measure. Pistol whipped as they say.
25 shoots fired = 2 12 shot magazines plus 1 chambered, this explains why the girl was beaten about the head. The assassin had expended all his ammunition. Sky news yesterday an interview with a French official stated each of the dead had two bullet wounds, suggesting a double “tap”
Seems clear to me.
Dave,
You have to differentiate between what would be expected of a small Mossad assassination team and what might be expected from the IDF.
Craig Murray himself says that the poor British guy *likely* wasn’t involved in something that would put him on Mossad’s radar. I don’t know about the French cyclist but even if he was a target it seems implausible to me that an innocent family would be taken down by very deliberate gunfire. Again: if it was a politically motivated assassination team, is it really a disaster for them if the family witnessed the assassination of the cyclist? It’s not like his death was disguised as accidental!
Taxed till end of April 2013, I should have said, not May.
The round white mark at top centre of the windscreen is quite regular something a sticker or similar stuck on the inside, possibly an additional stuck on mirror, for towing (was the caravan taken over for each trip or, kept on the French site between trips, note too the childs pink bicycle inside the awning of the caravan which might have been brought over on the roof rack), or for better rearward vision for an occupant of the passenger seat.
I’m resigned we (the public) will never get any credible explanation for these events.
Further speculation can serve no purpose till the authorities report their own progress.
Couple of posters inferred I was being a tad judgemental about Israeli and/or Arab propensity to ruthlessness. If so let’s be clear this is neither racism nor antisemitism: I’ve met and, occasionally back in the day, worked with both great people and utter shitweasels on both sides of that fence. I’ll reserve most of my calumny for their political masters if I may.
We don’t know whether the killer/s knew they’d left the 7-year-old alive. Given that they (a) almost certainly did not know the 4-year-old was present, (b) shot the cyclist at longish range to bring him down and then fired skulltaps to finish him, I’d suggest they intended to kill everyone. (Yes, “longish range” with a typical 7.65mm handgun is anything over 10 feet!).
This is exceptionally ruthless. I maintain that such calculated murder of young children is not a characteristic of western-trained soldiers. It is more a characteristic of people of exceptional fanaticism, whatever the motivation, often the kind that invokes God or Allah as justification for atrocity. To be fair, though, I’d concede that the sheer professionalism of the hit in all other respects strikes me as troublingly, well, “western”.
“Why would Mossad, who suffered severe diplomatic consequences from the assasination of a senior Hamas leader in Dubai, ‘simply’ because some of their team used fake British passports, risk the consequences of such a grotesque outrage against UK, French and Swedish citizens on French soil?”
What “severe diplomatic consequences”?
Perhaps because it was very important, to them? Also chutzpah (like their neverending threats against Iran), a remote location, and not expecting to be identified. Which they haven’t been.
What’s here is only speculation.
“it seems implausible to me that an innocent family would be taken down by very deliberate gunfire”
Which suggests al Hilli and family were deliberately executed. Either he was involved in something they didn’t like, or they thought he was. The family were killed as a warning to others. They may not have expected the children to be there, missed the four year old altogether, and only winged the seven year old as she tried to run.
Grant
25 shoots fired = 2 12 shot magazines plus 1 chambered, this explains why the girl was beaten about the head. The assassin had expended all his ammunition. Sky news yesterday an interview with a French official stated each of the dead had two bullet wounds, suggesting a double “tap”
Seems clear to me.
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Read back
This has been gone over several times
“I’d concede that the sheer professionalism of the hit in all other respects strikes me as troublingly, well, “western”.”
Such as, for example, so many bullets into the head of Jean Charles de Menezes?
Yes, the two-mags theory is a good one if there was just one shooter with something like a Beretta (can’t remember the name – is it an 80?). Maybe I’d have expected him to have two spares (kind of rig that has gun on one side and a two-mag sleeve as counterweight on the other) but we can’t read his mind. I guess I am still surprised if there was just one shooter: for me, two would make much more sense.
I’d agree that handguns seem much more likely than an SMG. If they’d had something like a Skorpion there would probably have been much more spraying. And handguns, especially those chambered for 7.65, can be very neat and concealable, not to mention favourites for use with a moderator.
I’m getting into too much speculation and would leave it at: yes, this stinks of government-grade unpleasantness.
>> “I’d concede that the sheer professionalism of the hit in all other respects strikes me as troublingly, well, “western”.”
>>>> “Such as, for example, so many bullets into the head of Jean Charles de Menezes?”
Good point. But I agree, that was a disgraceful panic by a police officer who should not have been authorised to carry a weapon. It was obvious that he lost control of his wee and kept squeezing the trigger till his mag was empty. Appallingly UN-professional.
I wasn’t really thinking of police firearms officers: more of the special forces trained types. The triple-tap has been in favour ever since the late 70s at least, after it became obvious that even several 9mm centre-mass hits doesn’t guarantee a kill. With something as weedy as .32 you would certainly go for double-taps to centre mass, with one or two skulltaps after.
I don’t understand why people describe this former RAF man as a ‘former RAf officer”. He may have had many roles during his life so far eg “former husband, former barman, former mechanic, former student” etc. None of these are mentioned. Are we supposed to conclude that the fact he was in the forces makes him above reproach? I have known of policeman and military men who were far from above reproach. I am struggling with this description of this witness. Are we to infer that, as a British (loyal and patriotic) ex-serviceman, he is whiter than white? It is not working for me. I need to know more. Perhaps this is a label the media gave him rather than the authorities. Even so, it worries me.
Given that al-Hilli dropped everything and went straight over to France, could it be that whoever the killers were had to do the same, thus not having the chance for the full team to be present?
Be nice if builder man could remember if there was a bike ontop of the BMW when it drove past him…
BTW, I’d assumed triples or quads. If it turns out to be doubles only … well, I’m surprised. But there’s the danger of speculation, I guess.
Perhaps somebody could confirm exactly what the police have said?
Everybody loves a whodunnit.
Though in this case the sheer volume of coverage in the MSM as well as the shifting sands of the cover story justify the suspicion and conspiracy theories.
Usually, the MSM is diffident to a fault when British passport holding nuclear scientists die suddenly:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1224377/British-nuclear-experts-17th-floor-UN-death-plunge-suicide.html
Do you think RAFman knows Badgeman?
The Telegraph whilst still peddling the family row and the bomb scare at the family home, reported yesterday that a friend had said Mr al Hilli had recently applied for a job at CERN.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9530821/France-shooting-two-shots-to-the-head-the-killers-were-ruthless.html
Truth or more obfuscation?
Lilian El-Doufani,
Yes, this “ex-RAF” guy could be a nut-case who shot them all and is now happily back in Britain above suspicion. French police seem to be sure this is not the case for some reason.
Here is the basic caravan route of the Al-Hilli family via Dordogne where their holiday home is, seems quite a trek towing a caravan:-
http://scotlandyard.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/al-hilli-caravan-travel-route.html
@Milton
IRA marxist “freedom fighters” killed children you ignorant twat
glenn
10 Sep, 2012 – 5:51 pm
I completely agree. But, how come these obvious questions are not asked on sky or bbc?
@milton and grant
Earlier on the thread
See my post to Craig
It seems as if everyone here on this thread is purposely spraying a lot of bullshit
These new characters come along and haven’t had the decency to read the two threads before mouthing off
Clearly, some of this is deliberate
People pose questions, and no answrs are forthcoming
Tis is frankly turning into a clusterfuck
Just like the events at CHAVALINE
@nuid
French say they know how many guns and what type they were and what cartridges
all they are confirming so far is 43 bullets and 7.65mm
7.65mm suggests the Mossad weapon of choice, a Beretta 70 or 71. 8 rounds per chamber. The official story says 30 seconds firing. Witnesses talked of automatic fire, at a nearby camp site.
Anyhoos that means at 8 per slide, one shooter would have to reload at least 5 times in 30 seconds.
Now – if two guns were used, both Beretta 70/71s, it still means each was reloaded 3 times or so…
Camp site witnesses say they heard 30 seconds of automatic fire
So that rules out 2 x Berettas
I suggest one Beretta was used, and another gun, at least.
BBC PM programme R4, correspondent in Annecy ; windy, pothold-filled road… Sounds like an ideal excursion on a bike (not).
“lost a lot of blood”
Like,er, not in that immaculate looking car interior.
By the way, Craig, what do your “security services sources” say about Dr Kelly or Gareth Williams.
‘former RAf officer’, as Russians say, former is not a conceivable word and does not exist.
BMW has GPS so could be tracked
The Ex-Raf guy ‘Punched’ in the window!!
Shell casings found inside the car!! If they were shot from outside thru the windows how are the casings inside??
http://scotlandyard.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/al-hilli-bmw-with-gps-locked-doors.html
“7.65mm suggests the Mossad weapon of choice, a Beretta 70 or 71. 8 rounds per chamber. The official story says 30 seconds firing. Witnesses talked of automatic fire, at a nearby camp site.
Anyhoos that means at 8 per slide, one shooter would have to reload at least 5 times in 30 seconds.”
UTV just reported 7.65mm, 10 per slide, and said the shooter had to reload ‘at least twice’.
Felix thanks
@Anders7777 et al
There is a very full timeline in French at
http://www.lemessager.fr/Actualite/Chablais/2012/09/05/article_messager_1623629.shtml
Oddity: the absence in the timeline of unnamed the wife of Sylvain Mollier raising the alarm there. In fact this fact comes only from the Prosecutor who spread the rumour that the cyclist was the wrong person in the wrong place (Huff Post link 6 sept)
Sylvain Mollier semble avoir été au mauvais endroit, au mauvais moment. Il est la seule victime non britannique de la tuerie de Chevaline.
Ce père de famille, originaire d’Ugine, près d’Albertville en Savoie, était parti faire un tour de vélo, mercredi, du côté du lac d’Annecy tout proche. Il ne s’est pas rendu dans cette zone peu fréquentée, boisée et sans issue par hasard.
Il avait pris la direction de Chevaline avec la ferme intention d’en découdre avec « une bonne petite montée ».
En ne le voyant pas revenir, sa compagne a donné l’alerte.
Sylvain Mollier venait d’avoir un fils, en juin dernier. Employé chez Cezus il était en congé parental. Ce quadragénaire était père de trois enfants.
No mention of the wife there. This is what the Huff Post writes:
His wife, worried when he did not return from his cycle ride, alerted the authorities, without making a link to the killings.
She went to a local police station with a photograph of her husband. Officers quickly made the link and her husband was identified as the fourth victim.
He found himself in the wrong place at the wrong time, Annecy prosecutor Eric Maillaud said.. Is this from the prosecutor?
No interviews forthcoming from the wife – she is not a witness to anything one imagines. No doubt gagged.
Notice also the deputy Mayor of Ugine, Michel Chevallier, who knew Sylvain Mollier and relayed the news to his wife, allegedly, on Wed 6 September lays out the official narrative:
“Dans ma tête, je vois Sylvain arriver en vélo et une personne lui tirer dessus parce qu’il a été témoin d’un massacre”, raconte l’adjoint, ajoutant : “il serait passé peut-être cinq minutes avant, il serait tranquille, cinq minutes après, il aurait été le premier témoin de ce massacre, mais aujourd’hui il serait avec nous pour parler de ce massacre”.
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I’ll get back to you.
I am very concerned at the amount of fucking CHAFF on this thread now.
Nobody is addressing important points, and volume is crowding out important stuff.
Like the absence of blood spatter for example
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“Never mind the quality, feel the width”
Fucking-A
“Shell casings found inside the car!! If they were shot from outside thru the windows how are the casings inside??”
Hand through the car window.
Got to go. Been indisposed all day.
@Anders – it is more likely to be a Berettat 81 or 82. The 81 has a double stacked magazine with 12 round capacity, while the 82 has a single stacked magazine with 9 round capacity. src: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beretta_Cheetah
Where is it reported that there were 43 shot fired? I can only find reports of 25. If it was 25, then that could be 2 x 12 mags, plus one in the chamber.
Sky are reporting that the 7 year old has briefly spoken to the Police – but no info released.
‘BBC PM programme R4, correspondent in Annecy ; windy, pothold-filled road… Sounds like an ideal excursion on a bike (not).’
That is a completely bizarre statement! You can’t avoid wind as a cyclist and you’re not going to avoid potholes in many parts of the world either!
Thank goodness I am not the only person questioning this whole thing. All very smelly.
As a complete novice, but a logical thinker, I was surprised that nothing had been mentioned earlier about the French cyclist and whether he was the target.
And how lucky that a RAF vet discovered them all??? And the distraught neighbour was suddenly able to give incredible TV interviews. An ex-journalist btw…
Please keep this string running. It is so important that we do not just accept the information we are spoonfed by media – and whoever feeds them……