My post on the shootings in France has brought tens of thousands of people to this site – but not to read my dull contribution. People are coming to read the comments from other readers.
Today’s development of the bomb squad descending on the al-Hilli house does not in itself worry me enormously. You may recall the massive terror scare that was ramped up when some Muslim students in Manchester were found to own a bag of sugar.
In fact we have the opposite phenomenon today, with the spook-fed “security correspondents” on TV lining up to tell us it is probably just everyday household stuff. This deviation from the standard Islamophobic “Muslims = bombs” narrative is so startling it makes me wonder why the “move along, nothing to see here” line is being taken so quickly.
My own security services sources insist that al-Hilli was not a person of current interest to the UK intelligence agencies and was not involved in anything clandestine. I have no reason to disbelieve them. On the other hand, the limited and confusing information in the media is almost entirely from official sources. I find it very strange indeed how little attention has been paid to the murdered French cyclist, and how easily it is presumed he was just a passerby. Surely it is as likely he was the intended victim and the al-Hillis the accidental witnesses?
Please do read the comments on my first entry on the subject to see the debate unfettered by the censorship in the mainstream media. This is perhaps my favourite comment:
From Janesmith101
All comments regarding Sylvain, Al-Hilli and a possible nuclear link are being removed from sites I’ve posted on in The Guardian, Independent and Huffpo UK.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/sep/09/alps-killer-motive-baffles-police
Here was my comment, I added as a point of fact it was completely speculative and an unproven theory in a later comment, also removed.
Sylvain Mollier, the ‘passing’ cyclist, was in fact a nuclear metallurgist who worked for a french nuclear company called Cezus (a subsidiary of Areva). Cezus fabricates and processes zirconium into metal and nuclear grade zircoaloy for nuclear fuel assemblies – it also has other applications in aerospace such as components and ceramics for missiles and satellites. Mr Al-Hilli was also a skilled aerospace engineer, on what looks to be his first camping holiday.
What is the probability that two highly skilled engineers managed be at the same remote place, at the same time, yet still managed to end up dead as a result of what looks to be a military style assasination?
As someone else pointed out in The Independent comments, the deceased were found by a ‘retired’ RAF officer who, we assume, will recieve perpetual anonymity as a witness. If the police are looking for a motive, try an intercepted rendevous by a security service fixated on denying a hostile power illicit nuclear technology.
http://wrmea.org/component/content/article/162-1995-june/7823-israel-bombs-iraqs-osirak-nuclear-research-facility.html
The Huffington Post UK reports that this wasn’t the family’s first trip to the camp site. An earlier report had asked other camp site visitors whether they had seen the family before and they had replied they hadn’t. If this isn’t wasn’t the first visit by Al-Hilli, it might slightly increase the odds that he knew or had met Mollier before, this being the last in a series of rendevous of a transactional nature. Mollier lived and worked locally.
Again, I’m not sure of the truth of these reports, there is some very sloppy journalism, as there is always seems to be. I’ve read for example Mollier’s company Cevus descirbed as a steel firm something which it is patently not, but perhaps it may have been a detail lost in translation.
An interesting comment summing up some of the strange coincidences, at least, surrounding these murders. My other favourite comment calls me a “macchiavellian shill”.
I have only one thought of my own I want to add at the minute. Al-Hilli was a Shia muslim and had been on pilgrimage to Qoms in Iran. What if it is indeed true that he was in possession of no especial nuclear or defence secrets to pass on to the Iranians, but the Israelis thought that he was? The Israeli programme of assassination of scientists involved in Iran’s nuclear programme is a definite fact. It makes as much sense as anything else at the moment, as a possibility.
I am not saying that is what happened. But the directions in which the mainstream media is being so strenuously pointed by official sources, like the massacre of an entire family over an inheritance, are certainly no more inherently probable. Certainly as we are now told all the shots were from one gun, for the assassin to get each victim in the head with none of them being able to escape, indicates real proficiency with the weapon and a very high level of training.
@Paddy.. he was very vague about exact timings, stating that it took 30 mins to complete the climb he was on. With no starting time given.
Despite the longer directors cut version of the interview admitting he was aware of many different scenarios, when the reporter mentioned timing discrepancies between the witnesses, he let out an ‘Oh’. Maybe that question was off script ?
@Paddy – your timing error is due to mis-translation by the Standard. You have to go back to the original source. This has been discussed on previous pages. What Philippe actually said was he arrived a little before 4pm. The UK papers are full of these errors.
@watcher
30 minutes to complete the climb from Chevaline, not 30 minutes up that lane.
@Watcher
“when the reporter mentioned timing discrepancies between the witnesses, he let out an ‘Oh’. Maybe that question was off script ?”
Maybe a good point.
Has anyone had the idea that the killer himself (or one of the hit team) might have placed the call at 3.48? In a kind of panic, because he did not intend to hurt a kid?
How much time between the shots and the emergency call and the panicking driver (the one who drove on the wrong side of the road, downhill)?
@MontyW: Link?
@watcher
@C,D Brits in general aren’t world renowned for their linguistic skills, most of us just say whatever we are trying to say louder.
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That is actually rubbish, only Basil shouts louder! 🙂 I headed up a team of Brits to carry out a project in France. We were all sent for an intensive 6 week course in Windsor before it started, and we were bloody good after six weeks! I used to commute from France to Blighty on my days off, had a girlfriend here, so my language skills didn’t improve much at all, but without fail, all the guys that stayed in France on their days off, and had french girlfriends, were totally fluent in a few more months.
RAFman had a house there, and made frequent visits we are told, so he wouldn’t be so useless, would he??? 😉
It is not rocket science for RAFman to say quattre (holds up four fingers) et mort! (points up the hill) allez allez allez! Un petite fils, trez malle! Avez-vous en Cell? (points to ear, mimes a phone etc).
Of course RAFman’s account is a fairytale, and probably PD too, they’ve might a right old arse of this business from day one, minute one. 🙂
@Paddy – Very Interesting – had not considered the hit team making the call but this could make sense if they were super confident that they had left no trace / could not be caught.
Almost a 2 fingered salute to the Gendarmmes before they skip the country…
@Anders, I once stayed in a French Alps chalet with 11 other ppl, all brits, all regular skiers/boarders in France, none could speak French at all. I had a very thin phrase book and booked the taxi’s every night with little practice.
I’m not saying all Brits are linguistically remedial, just that many don’t bother because they assume everyone else will understand English. It is the most popular second language
@Paddy – your timing error is due to mis-translation by the Standard. You have to go back to the original source. This has been discussed on previous pages. What Philippe actually said was he arrived a little before 4pm. The UK papers are full of these errors.
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Translation:
First reports are usually accurate. 😉
Later reports are the ones massaging the official fairytale, masseuses being specialist spook media and internet etc sanitisers. That’s all they do, experts in all media, radio, tv, morse bloody code. 🙂
That’s why half the links I’ve posted have goone WHOOSH 404! 😉
But are pasted in this 2300 and growing archive we have here.
There is METHOD in my MADNESS! 🙂
Always always always paste in the contents from a link (within reason)- Even that gentleman’s guide I posted might get hacked.
@MontyW and @all
http://www.leparisien.fr/faits-divers/les-confidences-d-un-temoin-du-drame-de-chevaline-11-09-2012-2159640.php
“…Mais alors qu’ils montaient tranquillement en voiture la route forestière de la Combe-d’Ire, sur les hauteurs du village de Chevaline, à deux pas du lieu-dit du Martinet, ils ont vu surgir peu avant 16 heures…”
“peu avant 16 heures” !
=> shortly BEFORE 4 pm!
So it was “only” a mistake in translation?
Are there any more sources – eg from press conferences?
Sorry for the confusion.
Explanation of how Mollier overtook tri-athelete BM.
In the interview, BM mentions he was on a mountain bike and had already been cycling for an hour before reaching the bottom of the hill.
Mollier was supposedly a member of Ugine cycle club (anyone confirm this? – I have not seen it). The photos on the Ugine cycle club websites show road bikes.
From what we know one can assume the two men would be of similar fitness.
Road bikes are much lighter than mountain bikes and crucially are fitted with much narrower tyres with far lesser rolling resistance. So, even with the same rider, a mountain bike will be considerably slower up a tarmaced hill than a road bike.
I’ve seen it stated that the emergency services arrived at 4.20pm.
As they pelted up the road they passed Phillipe and rafman coming back down.
So, between the time of the phone call by Phillipe and the arrival of emergency services, Phillipe and RAFman had time to go back up the hill, persuse the scene for xx time then drive back down again.
@Anders, I once stayed in a French Alps chalet with 11 other ppl, all brits, all regular skiers/boarders in France, none could speak French at all. I had a very thin phrase book and booked the taxi’s every night with little practice.
I’m not saying all Brits are linguistically remedial, just that many don’t bother because they assume everyone else will understand English. It is the most popular second language
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OK fair enough but I got C at French O level when they were rather stiff tests. RAFman was probably much better academically, educated in the same era, so I’m sure he would know everyday French, at least 1500 words or so.
@montyw
not that its relevant, but rafman said he’d been out for an hour and a half (by the time the 4×4 passed him)
Road bikes are much lighter than mountain bikes and crucially are fitted with much narrower tyres with far lesser rolling resistance. So, even with the same rider, a mountain bike will be considerably slower up a tarmaced hill than a road bike.
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This is true, but if I was out for a bike ride in that vicinity, I wouldn’t be going up boring forest roads with no view, I’d find somewhere scenic. The only reason to beast up to that car park IMO (apart froma clandestine RV), would be to use an MTB and set out on the trails at the top, which presumably would be fantastic riding.
Zainab saw a single killer:
http://www.franceinfo.fr/justice/tuerie-de-chevaline-la-survivante-de-7-ans-n-aurait-vu-qu-un-seul-tueur-738505-2012-09-14
@Anders , I admit that an Oxbridge type should be able to speak french conversationally, however that sort of privileged education also leads to arrogance along the lines of ‘They can all ruddy well understand English they’re just been stubborn’ etc …
@James
Thanks for your reply – appreciated! Unfortunately no time to reply fully now – but will try late tonight or tomorrow morning.
anders7777
Good point – and that is what lots of people (mainly local) do. They go up to the peak. There is a chalet (more like a scottish bothy than alpine ski chalet) there where you can stay overnight so you can see the amazing sunset and sunrise as going up or down in the dark would be dangerous. But this family did no seem prepared for that; where are we on Mr al-Hilli’s bike … or possibly, given mention of daughter learning to ride a bike at the campsite, the daughters as they would be room for two bikes on that rack. There has been talk of the occupants being in city clothes. So the question is not that it is odd for a dressed and prepared for hiking and cycling family to be in that car-park but for this family as they do not seem ready to hike or bike.
B Martin said that “I was apprehensive” about going back up to the car park “because it was very prevalent about where the shooter was” What did he mean to say instead of this? “pervasive fear” “terrifying atmosphere” “sense of danger” some word which rhymes with or is synonym for “prevalent”
Quote
If Mollier had been travelling at 16kmh, he would have covered the following distances over the 5 minutes…
after 1 minutes 267meters (just over 0.16 of a mile)
after 2 minutes 534meters
after 3 minutes 800meters
after 4 minutes 1068meters
after 5 minutes 1335 meters (just over 0.8 miles)
If RAF man was travelling at 8km/hr, he would have covered the following distances over 5 minutes…
after 1 minutes 133.5meters (just over 0.08 of a mile)
after 2 minutes 267meters
after 3 minutes 400meters
after 4 minutes 534meters
after 5 minutes 667.5meters (just over 0.4 miles)
If RAF man was only 667.5 meters away from the killing site when he was overtaken, Mollier would have arrived at the site after 2.28 minutes. After 2.28minutes, RAF man would have travelled 320meters, placing him only 330 meters (1/5 of a mile!) behind him, surely he would have heard the shots over that distance?!
…………………
To add to this. From Chevaline village to the murder site is 3.7km (8 minutes by car and 50 minutes walking)
From the start of that road leading to the carpark to the carpark itself is no more than around 400 metres.
If the above calculations are correct then at the time Sylvain reached that carpark RAFman must have been turning left) into that lane.
This would also fit because RAFman I presume saw where Sylvain was headed, to assume that the bike he saw up the lane was one and the same as the one sylvain was on.
@ Dopey “From the start of that road leading to the carpark to the carpark itself” is 3.2 kms. Where do you get 400m?
@montyw
Google maps. Its 3.7 km from Chevaline village to the carpark.
When you drive up the hill out of the village eventually you come to the turning to your left) for that road which leads to the carpark.
From the start of that road off the main road from Chevaline) to the carpark is around 400 metres.
@watcher
@Anders , I admit that an Oxbridge type should be able to speak french conversationally, however that sort of privileged education also leads to arrogance along the lines of ‘They can all ruddy well understand English they’re just been stubborn’ etc …
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True but RAFman didn’t come across as arrogant IMO. Lots of other things, but hey! It’s always the quiet ones! 🙂
Sorry, with brackets this time
@montyw
Google maps. Its 3.7 km from Chevaline village to the carpark.
When you drive up the hill out of the village eventually you come to the turning (to your left) for that road which leads to the carpark.
From the start of that road ( the road off the main road from Chevaline) to the carpark is around 400 metres.
@paddy
Zainab saw a single killer:
http://www.franceinfo.fr/justice/tuerie-de-chevaline-la-survivante-de-7-ans-n-aurait-vu-qu-un-seul-tueur-738505-2012-09-14
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Page has gone 404 in seconds! 😉
Would everyone please in future paste in the relevant info here. I’ve been battling m o ds for year’s about this 101 point, but they seem obsessed with not tiring out their servers over a few bits of binary! 🙁
From news24.com within the last hour.
Grenoble – A 7-year-old girl who survived last week’s shooting of a British family in the French Alps saw only one killer, a source close to the investigation said on Friday.
Zainab al-Hilli told investigators on Friday, shortly after emerging from a medically induced coma, that she had seen “one bad guy”, the source said.
The girl later left for Britain where her family lived
http://www.news24.com/World/News/Alps-shooting-survivor-saw-one-bad-guy-20120914
@vermillion
Yes, not at all ready for hiking or biking. I have wondered many times if this was a final rendezvous, then SAH was going to do a flit. Maybe drive to Geneva, then a plane to Tehran or wherever. Initial reports on thread 1 said 4 types of passports, so I assumed each person in the car had a passport.
This to me indicates a flit, bearing in mind the hit.
Or maybe they are all still alive, and this has been super Machiavellian. That too.
Was done in WW2 all the time. Been done since Sumer, nothing new under the sun. 😉
@dopey
Well who is to say, we only have the word of the “source” …
Trick cyclists have been in constant contact with both, and we all know false memory syndrome, and what shrinks can do in no time at all.
This was interesting:
He said Zainab was “prone on the road, moaning, sort of semi-conscious” when he stumbled across the scene in a forest area in Annecy.
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Yet PD saw no injuries at all. Apparently lifeless.
Cannot be both. 😉