My post on the shootings in France has brought tens of thousands of people to this site – but not to read my dull contribution. People are coming to read the comments from other readers.
Today’s development of the bomb squad descending on the al-Hilli house does not in itself worry me enormously. You may recall the massive terror scare that was ramped up when some Muslim students in Manchester were found to own a bag of sugar.
In fact we have the opposite phenomenon today, with the spook-fed “security correspondents” on TV lining up to tell us it is probably just everyday household stuff. This deviation from the standard Islamophobic “Muslims = bombs” narrative is so startling it makes me wonder why the “move along, nothing to see here” line is being taken so quickly.
My own security services sources insist that al-Hilli was not a person of current interest to the UK intelligence agencies and was not involved in anything clandestine. I have no reason to disbelieve them. On the other hand, the limited and confusing information in the media is almost entirely from official sources. I find it very strange indeed how little attention has been paid to the murdered French cyclist, and how easily it is presumed he was just a passerby. Surely it is as likely he was the intended victim and the al-Hillis the accidental witnesses?
Please do read the comments on my first entry on the subject to see the debate unfettered by the censorship in the mainstream media. This is perhaps my favourite comment:
From Janesmith101
All comments regarding Sylvain, Al-Hilli and a possible nuclear link are being removed from sites I’ve posted on in The Guardian, Independent and Huffpo UK.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/sep/09/alps-killer-motive-baffles-police
Here was my comment, I added as a point of fact it was completely speculative and an unproven theory in a later comment, also removed.
Sylvain Mollier, the ‘passing’ cyclist, was in fact a nuclear metallurgist who worked for a french nuclear company called Cezus (a subsidiary of Areva). Cezus fabricates and processes zirconium into metal and nuclear grade zircoaloy for nuclear fuel assemblies – it also has other applications in aerospace such as components and ceramics for missiles and satellites. Mr Al-Hilli was also a skilled aerospace engineer, on what looks to be his first camping holiday.
What is the probability that two highly skilled engineers managed be at the same remote place, at the same time, yet still managed to end up dead as a result of what looks to be a military style assasination?
As someone else pointed out in The Independent comments, the deceased were found by a ‘retired’ RAF officer who, we assume, will recieve perpetual anonymity as a witness. If the police are looking for a motive, try an intercepted rendevous by a security service fixated on denying a hostile power illicit nuclear technology.
http://wrmea.org/component/content/article/162-1995-june/7823-israel-bombs-iraqs-osirak-nuclear-research-facility.html
The Huffington Post UK reports that this wasn’t the family’s first trip to the camp site. An earlier report had asked other camp site visitors whether they had seen the family before and they had replied they hadn’t. If this isn’t wasn’t the first visit by Al-Hilli, it might slightly increase the odds that he knew or had met Mollier before, this being the last in a series of rendevous of a transactional nature. Mollier lived and worked locally.
Again, I’m not sure of the truth of these reports, there is some very sloppy journalism, as there is always seems to be. I’ve read for example Mollier’s company Cevus descirbed as a steel firm something which it is patently not, but perhaps it may have been a detail lost in translation.
An interesting comment summing up some of the strange coincidences, at least, surrounding these murders. My other favourite comment calls me a “macchiavellian shill”.
I have only one thought of my own I want to add at the minute. Al-Hilli was a Shia muslim and had been on pilgrimage to Qoms in Iran. What if it is indeed true that he was in possession of no especial nuclear or defence secrets to pass on to the Iranians, but the Israelis thought that he was? The Israeli programme of assassination of scientists involved in Iran’s nuclear programme is a definite fact. It makes as much sense as anything else at the moment, as a possibility.
I am not saying that is what happened. But the directions in which the mainstream media is being so strenuously pointed by official sources, like the massacre of an entire family over an inheritance, are certainly no more inherently probable. Certainly as we are now told all the shots were from one gun, for the assassin to get each victim in the head with none of them being able to escape, indicates real proficiency with the weapon and a very high level of training.
First of all, as some of the UK newspapers have pointed out, al Hilli was not living off his UK income as an engineering consultant. he must have had some other source of funds, maybe the replacement of his brother by his wife in their engineering company was part of this and part of the dispute between the brothers. Maybe he was a spy or agent who had failed to deliver his part of the deal. As several sources have pointed out it would have been easy enough to stage an accident with the car which destroyed all the evidence0 eg drove off a mountain road and caught fire. This was done this way to make a point.
Secondly let us look at the French cyclist. If he was involved in some way, then the obvious thing for the hitman/men to do was to wait until he had arrived to meet al Hilli and then to shoot them all equally clinically.
In fact it looks as if the al Hillis were trying to escape, hence the engine running and the nature of the French cyclists reported injuries suggests to me he turned up unexpected and had to be dealt with hurriedly and the little girl appeared just as they were leaving (maye she had indeed left the car for a pee). The hitmen were clearly not going to hang around.
There have been fairly sound reports saying th weapon is a preferred weapon of the Serbian mafia. Does anyone want to address this?
There is one apparent discrepancy I have noticed and that is that the British guy said there was a lot of blood around the little girl and the French walker who followed said he went over to her and spoke to her and thought she was dead. He did not mention blood in the account I read.
I have now watched the interview with Brett Martin and while he does not come across as as convincing as some think, there have been photos taken of him taking part in triathlons, under the same name and reports he has a house in the area in France. I have a cyclist friend who also has a house in that part of France so that is plausible. Also Martin was an airline training captain so would be used to rehearsing disaster scenarios and good under pressure. So while not totally convincing he is not unconvincing either.
…amnd to add.
A single shot “at” the windscreen, looking at (at least one) of the marks there.
Re. Clark, at 5:01am on 15th Sept 2012:
It started off very well and seems to have drawn in thousands of visitors. But gradually, as the posters ran out of available facts – or should I say, information – and as other sources of information became available, it evolved into the architecture which you depicted, and one now has to search to find interesting and non-grandstanding posts. It is as though various incarnations of Tony OpMoc, at his pre-moderated, midnight height, had taken over a thread. The repeated references to the website of the ex-snooker player suggest one possible provenance for this epistemological shift.
I do think, though, that the Hillsborough situation is instructive. There will never be any such acknowledgement, two-plus decades on, with regards to conspiracies involving security and intelligence services and/or ‘national security’. But as with the Miners’ Strike of 1984-85, Hillsborough reveals the sort of blatant mendacity and conspiracy which the establishment deploys when its reputation and/or power are threatened. Thus does power reveal itself. It wasn’t simply about ‘covering ass’, though that was the immediate tactical driver. On a deeper level, it was about the political power of the hard state and its relationship to corporate interests, a plexus that had developed hugely during the 1980s.
On the foreign policy level, a decade later, we saw the manufacturing/altering of evidence wrt the build-up to the invasion of Iraq. But the realm of political assassination is murkier still. To use a literary metaphor, it is all subtext.
Sorry, that of course should have been, “ex-snooker commentator”, or “ex-football player”.
Bloody ell what happened here, too many vodka redbulls last night and maybe too many pints in the Golden Hinde? today is a new day lets try and get some good analysis here and get back on track!
There have been fairly sound reports saying th weapon is a preferred weapon of the Serbian mafia. Does anyone want to address this?
AFAIK, it still has not been confirmed that the weapon used indeed was a Skorpion Vz 61. If it was, it used to be everybody’s favourite weapon for close-range defence. Calling it a signature weapon of the Serbian mob is overstating the case.
Looking at this image
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/09/08/article-2200388-14DEF9C4000005DC-848_638x624.jpg
it is obvious that neither “bursts” nor “double taps” were fired at that car, only single shots. The Skorpion has a single-shot mode, so that doesn’t rule it out.
And to add to Peter’s comment, during the “Bos Hez Rep Vs Bos Croat Vs Bos Serb Vs all anyothers” war. The place was awash with arms.
They got everywhere…and into the hands of everyone (central Europe…and beyond).
If the weapon “is” as descibed, then it literally could have been anywhere previously.
Ok why such a small weapon? easy to carry n a Motorbike? if they where in the 4×4 they could have used a M60 and it wouldnt have mattered, it has to be something to do with concealment, easy to handle with one hand but have enough rounds to handle the number of targets?
I have read most of these threads and the information is staggering…I am a bit squeamish and have been a bit reluctant to view certain images of “the scene” but I have a nagging question – where is SM’s bike? Missing/damaged rack (is this a bike rack also?)on the beemer. If it is a “suitable for bike type rack” and SM’s bike is missing could this also be a piece of the puzzle?
Agree.
BUT that assumes *he knew how many targets there would be (?).
How many was *he to shoot one, two or six ?
I keep getting reminded of this
http://www.bestgore.com/murder/1995-triple-rettendon-murders-crime-scene-photo-video/#
Ok why such a small weapon? easy to carry n a Motorbike?
Again, we – or at least I – don’t know whether or not a Skorpion Vz 61 was used. It could equally well have been a CZ 83, a Beretta or any other self-loading pistol in .32 ACP / 7.65 Browning.
If it was a Skorpion, it was probably used because it packs an awful punch for such a small weapon and because it is relatively easy to get hold of in criminal circles, certainly easier than a HK MP7 or some other similar, more modern gun. In short, it would have been used because either it was the best gun for the job that the shooter could get hold of, or (to appease the conspiracy theorists out there) because somebody wanted to make this assassination look like the handiwork of non-state actors, “mere” violent criminals.
@Chelsea Blue.
Yes, where indeed are any bikes. Or descriptions of clothing worn by the dead cyclist.
Not to mention “Police chief Vinnemann said the family were dressed “smartly” and that none were wearing clothes suitable for a hike through rough terrain.”
Or Brett Martin’s words “I could have done a sort of fireman’s lift and taken her down to my bike”
Down???
Martin doesn’t mention what he did with his own bike. If indeed there were ever any bikes there.
Ask yourself why the media isn’t curious.
Exactly this weapon cant be associated with just one group, lots of these weapons all over Europe ater past conflicts, easy to handle, single or auto, good stopping power, easily concealed……………..why wouldnt this be used.
These guys know what they are getting themselves into, they knew how many people etc.
Motorbikes have been used for a longtime by Assasins – quick in quick out, can go where others cant, motor bike helmets
conceal your identity and any Radio ear peices etc…..thats what I would use anyway. I hadnt heard prev that it was a scrambler either?
Garden Photo of al-hillis property. Watch the picture of the garden of his property. There is a blue 200kg drum close to the back of his garden. That’s an acid.
http://jadechem.en.alibaba.com/product/498194778-50146396/Yellow_Dye_acid_copper_intermediates.html
I wonder why somebody needs an acid drum of that size if he doesn’t have a chemical factory. Perhaps somebody with chemical background could give us a clue about the possible private usage of such a 200 kg drum of chemicals?
I wonder why somebody needs an acid drum of that size if he doesn’t have a chemical factory
Now that you have mentioned it, @ Bluebird … Maybe he did have a chemical factory in his garden shed 😉 Seriously, without wishing to malign the dead, my personal best guess at this stage is that one of the al-Hillis may have been a “cook”.
Looking at the murder scene, which to me really does look like a drug deal gone bad, and nothing like a state-sanctioned execution; looking at the lifestyle of the family, which is difficult to square with Mr al-Hilli’s official income situation; looking at the weird timing of their camping holiday, when their children were about to start school; considering the fact that the police called in the bomb squad to check out their garden workshop – I would not rule out the possibility that they were “cooking” in that garden shed.
http://scotlandyard.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/best-and-worst-dressed-witnesses.html
Sorry, the page you were looking for in this blog does not exist.
SYLVIE LECOUER–Sylvie LeCouer’s photo was snapped by Roland Hoskins and published in the Daily Mail on Sept. 7, 2012
Roland Hoskins took
a) The only photo of the car
b) A photo of Sylvie Lecoeur, the key witness. [Daily Mail 7 September]
Coincidence?
I see @Straw44berry was onto that a few days ago at Icke.
No other aerial photographers about?? Just two shots at the same moment?
No way this was a drug deal,no way! if it was they would have concentrated on the perps firstand they are not they are focusing on why, the investigation has given up on the people that did this as they know they cant touch them!
It is also obvious that if the emergancy services had already heard about this on the radio and where on their way up the hill
when BM was on his way down that they had chance to stop them shut major rd’s, put up road blocks and checks at borders! there has been no mention of this!
Bluebird.
There is a picture…somewhere….of his back garden.
Taken from high up.
(1)I recall his sun awnings was out.
(2) There was a “garden tent” covering a (what looked to be) full size wheel barrow.
OK, answer. He left it out to put off possible thieves. And he was an avid gardener.
Stick that “big blue” chemical type drum in that lot….and does the garden doesn’t look like an “engineers” garden ?
@ Ricki Tarr
You are of course entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine. However, I should like to point out two more things: 1. If the drugs had already changed hands at the time the murders were committed, the police initially would have had a hard time figuring out that the killings might be drug-related. 2. The recent shift in the focus of the investigation – that the root causes for the murder are to be found in the UK – would be consistent with the discovery of a lab in the garden shed, possibly operated by Mrs al-Hilli, not by her husband.
However, I might be totally, utterly wrong on all of this.
Here’s a weird one !!!
LinkedIn for Sylvie Lecoeur !
http://fr.linkedin.com/pub/sylvie-le-coeur/28/21/190
One relationship and a “Travailleur indépendant du secteur Arts”
(Independent Arts Sector ???)
Look left. She’s got a lot of people looking at her from the Energy Industry !
I have gone barking ! Or does anyone else read that to ???
I hope people are saving relevant web pages and files as they find them. Stuff goes missing from the web sometimes.
Suhayl, thanks. Things seem much better this morning (I consider it morning until 13:00 when we’re on British Summer Time).
Maybe it’s time the participants on this thread did a summary, a sort of triage – well established, possible, and disproven – for people like me who don’t have time to read, follow links, cross-reference, evaluate and understand all 1600+ comments!
Ah !
“Les personnes qui ont consulté ce profil, ont également consulté…”
“People who viewed this profile also viewed …”
Probably quite normal.
People are searching her….and looking at others in the “Energy Industry” in France etc !
“There is a blue 200kg drum close to the back of his garden. That’s an acid.”
Or possibly a water butt:- http://c713667.r67.cf3.rackcdn.com/YI214GBG9_1_large.jpg
Anyway if this is the picture I can’t see it:-
http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01581/SNE1106SA–6203_1581862a.jpg
There are a couple of blue topped (re-cycling) wheelie bins, identical to the one I have, and some blue plastic bags apparently filled with garden refuse.
Heres a link to the telegraph pic gallery , pic 2 = garden shed
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/uknews/9533223/France-shooting-the-search-goes-on-in-Claygate-and-Chevaline-in-the-Alps.html?frame=2334531
To the far left of the image there is a water butt, next to this a olive green recycling bin, next to this is the ‘suspected’ acid drum.
I agree this does look more like a chemical drum then a water butt.
Also the build of this ‘shed’ brings some questions to mind, I don’t know anyone particularly wealthy but .. why would someone install double glazing in a shed as well as skylights. This indicates to me that someone as planning to spend alot of time in here and/or has a very serious hobby.
I know a few mechanical engineers who fabricate stuff and build car parts, these people are always happy in a dusty old cold shed full of cobwebs, not deluxe almost bungalow with glazing, skylights etc
@Kempe – it’s at the back of the garden, next to shed. Try Daily Mail site.
“Engineer’s garden” – like, ride-on narrow gauge railway system? Rocket under construction?
Kempe, here’s a detailed picture.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/09/06/article-2199513-14DF093C000005DC-116_642x899.jpg
That’s definitely no water butt. Look at the top of the drum. That’s a 200kg acid drum used for acid intermediates. You could use such intermediates for electronic plates and devices. It’s not unlikely he used it for production of electronic computer parts (or bombs?) since there is hardly any other usage for acid intermediates. Still, 200kg is quite a lot and you’ll hardly find that in any other private garden surroundings
@ James
That might be because she has a husband, Cédric, who works for ALSTOM
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/cédric-le-coeur/3/7b9/920
I just witnessed, while looking at this picture again that there’s a second 200kg acid drum right of his garage close to the front side of his house. So we’re having 400kg acid right now on his property, and that’s just what we could see on that aereal photograph.
@Kempe @Bluebird There are 2 ‘acid’ barrels one is to the right of the house next to a lean to, as well as one at the back of garden.
As i look at this slight higher res pic, check out the shed …. ventilation next to the left dbl glazed window (as they’ve gone to the trouble of dbl glazing we can presume this vent is baffled e.g. this is not just a hole it will be insulated and probably turn at 90degress, this is standard practice in ventilation in a audio studio where you need to vent air in / out but need to control noise leakage),
white plastic object to the left of the shed door (could be a simple thermometer, but also a standard lace to have some sort of card access system/automated locking of the front door.
Also how many pallets does this guy need stacked up. He’s either being going through ‘materials’ at quite a rate or collecting them for firewood ..