My post on the shootings in France has brought tens of thousands of people to this site – but not to read my dull contribution. People are coming to read the comments from other readers.
Today’s development of the bomb squad descending on the al-Hilli house does not in itself worry me enormously. You may recall the massive terror scare that was ramped up when some Muslim students in Manchester were found to own a bag of sugar.
In fact we have the opposite phenomenon today, with the spook-fed “security correspondents” on TV lining up to tell us it is probably just everyday household stuff. This deviation from the standard Islamophobic “Muslims = bombs” narrative is so startling it makes me wonder why the “move along, nothing to see here” line is being taken so quickly.
My own security services sources insist that al-Hilli was not a person of current interest to the UK intelligence agencies and was not involved in anything clandestine. I have no reason to disbelieve them. On the other hand, the limited and confusing information in the media is almost entirely from official sources. I find it very strange indeed how little attention has been paid to the murdered French cyclist, and how easily it is presumed he was just a passerby. Surely it is as likely he was the intended victim and the al-Hillis the accidental witnesses?
Please do read the comments on my first entry on the subject to see the debate unfettered by the censorship in the mainstream media. This is perhaps my favourite comment:
From Janesmith101
All comments regarding Sylvain, Al-Hilli and a possible nuclear link are being removed from sites I’ve posted on in The Guardian, Independent and Huffpo UK.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/sep/09/alps-killer-motive-baffles-police
Here was my comment, I added as a point of fact it was completely speculative and an unproven theory in a later comment, also removed.
Sylvain Mollier, the ‘passing’ cyclist, was in fact a nuclear metallurgist who worked for a french nuclear company called Cezus (a subsidiary of Areva). Cezus fabricates and processes zirconium into metal and nuclear grade zircoaloy for nuclear fuel assemblies – it also has other applications in aerospace such as components and ceramics for missiles and satellites. Mr Al-Hilli was also a skilled aerospace engineer, on what looks to be his first camping holiday.
What is the probability that two highly skilled engineers managed be at the same remote place, at the same time, yet still managed to end up dead as a result of what looks to be a military style assasination?
As someone else pointed out in The Independent comments, the deceased were found by a ‘retired’ RAF officer who, we assume, will recieve perpetual anonymity as a witness. If the police are looking for a motive, try an intercepted rendevous by a security service fixated on denying a hostile power illicit nuclear technology.
http://wrmea.org/component/content/article/162-1995-june/7823-israel-bombs-iraqs-osirak-nuclear-research-facility.html
The Huffington Post UK reports that this wasn’t the family’s first trip to the camp site. An earlier report had asked other camp site visitors whether they had seen the family before and they had replied they hadn’t. If this isn’t wasn’t the first visit by Al-Hilli, it might slightly increase the odds that he knew or had met Mollier before, this being the last in a series of rendevous of a transactional nature. Mollier lived and worked locally.
Again, I’m not sure of the truth of these reports, there is some very sloppy journalism, as there is always seems to be. I’ve read for example Mollier’s company Cevus descirbed as a steel firm something which it is patently not, but perhaps it may have been a detail lost in translation.
An interesting comment summing up some of the strange coincidences, at least, surrounding these murders. My other favourite comment calls me a “macchiavellian shill”.
I have only one thought of my own I want to add at the minute. Al-Hilli was a Shia muslim and had been on pilgrimage to Qoms in Iran. What if it is indeed true that he was in possession of no especial nuclear or defence secrets to pass on to the Iranians, but the Israelis thought that he was? The Israeli programme of assassination of scientists involved in Iran’s nuclear programme is a definite fact. It makes as much sense as anything else at the moment, as a possibility.
I am not saying that is what happened. But the directions in which the mainstream media is being so strenuously pointed by official sources, like the massacre of an entire family over an inheritance, are certainly no more inherently probable. Certainly as we are now told all the shots were from one gun, for the assassin to get each victim in the head with none of them being able to escape, indicates real proficiency with the weapon and a very high level of training.
@Watcher …Good point
the Search Dog – mentioned here
Un hélicoptère muni d’une caméra thermique et un chien de recherche avaient été également engagés durant la soirée pour retrouver l’enfant. [AP]
http://www.20min.ch/ro/news/monde/story/11448825
So, the neither a heat-seeking helicopter nor a search dog could detect a child in a car. OK…
@Dopey
That Luger article is a scream.
Sunday Telegraph has learnt…
The best info is from day 1. A classic case of the police trying to “unsolve” a crime, or find a patsy. Barry George springs to mind in this nexus too…
So then, there are a lot of conspiracy theories. Let me add a new one that I stumbled over another conspiracy board regarding that event. At the first moment it sounds unlikely, however, there are a few facts that are quite exciting about this theory (that isn’t mine by the way but combines some facts that I had investigated).
I have no doubts that Al-Hilli and Hicheur knew each other. Given the latest information about boards where Al-Hilli was linked to Muslims who don’t like the Western culture, and given the fact that Hicheuer and Al-Hilli both formerly worked at Rutherford Labs, I would link both them closely with the so called French Al Qaida branch organisation that also linked Toulouse killer Mohamed Merah (Lyon).
In my theory, Al-Hillis links to satellite technology are fake, as much as his AMS 1087 Ltd is a fake letter box company address for hiding his real agenda in nuclear technologies.
When Hicheur was arrested, the French investigators said word by word: “Hicheur had the knowledge and the access to material to build a nuclear bomb that could completely destroy a huge city like it is London.” – That was said by the French investigators to the press. French investigators – wait a second. Why did they mention London? Did they forget about Paris? So why did they mention London? What did they know?
Now about the conspiracy theory that isn’t mine:
Given that Al-Hilli and Hicheur were part of the same Al Qaida branch and given they had planned to destroy London with a self made nuke, and given that they knew something about that nuke but the investigators didn’t know at that time where that nuke really was if it existed, what would they do to find out?
They only could find out if they could make Hicheur a whistleblower.
Funny enough, Hicheur was released in May 2012 because of “good behaviour” only 6 days after they sentenced him for 5 years in prison. Well, a white collar criminal could released earlier if he behaves well in jail, hwoever, a terrorist who was sentenced because of alleged nuclear bomb threads, too? Usually those guys are being “educated” in Guantanamo for more than 5 years before released.
Now those poeple speculate that there was a self made nuke in Al-Hilli’s house that was set to detonate on 9/11. That would explain why he took his children and family quickly to France although the little kid should have had her first schoolday in early September. In France they were obviously save if the nuke in their house would detonate.
If in Fact Hicheur and Al Hilli were able to build a nuke (perhaps with support from France, Mollier?), and if Hicheur was the whistleblower, then the governments and the secret services likely knew what’s to do and they simply waited for the time when Al-Hilli was leaving his home for being save to evacuate the nuke, otherwise they likely feared that Al-Hilli or even his wife could have had a device to let the nuke detonate as soon as police would have entered the house as long as they were there.
Perhaps there was a nuke in his Surrey house that was set to detonate on 9/11.
Therefore the assassination of not only Al-Hilli but of all adults who knew about the nuke (wife, grandma and perhaps Mollier,too), wasn’t a piece of justice but a part of secrecy because nobody should know the truth, otherwise all people would panic.
The evacuation of “something unknown that could be dangerous” by the military special unit at Claygate was likely that nuke. People (neighbours, press, etc.) were evacuated so that the ycouldn’t see what they were carrying from the house. It’s a secret and it will stay as a secret (if that conspiracy theory is true) because no government could afford its population to panic.
That’s the conspiracy theory I’ve read in another forum and it’s not mine! Howeverm it’s not that unlikely given all the facts about Hicheur and Al-Hilli and also taken the latest information about Al-Hilli’s aggressive islamistic comments on the internet into account.
@ felix
Oh look – the funeral quickly announced of Sylvain Mollier
http://www.leparisien.fr/faits-divers/tuerie-de-chevaline-les-obseques-du-cycliste-celebrees-ce-dimanche-16-09-2012-2167137.php
and it’s probably already over. (“temporary burial”) Very stange. [and the absence of a photo anywhere is also highly unusual
………………………..
Oh no Felix. According to a few on here no photo anywhere of the guy is perfectly normal *shrugs*
The weapon used (if it indeed was a pre-1949 Swiss Army pistol) is almost unbelievably weird. The calibre of that gun is not the ubiquitous 9×19 mm Para, but 7.65 x 21 mm Para, also known as .30 Luger
http://ammoseek.com/?gun=handgun&cal=5
Now, whilst ammunition in that calibre is quite rare, it is still obtainable. However, getting hold of two spare magazines for this particular gun must have been very difficult indeed, have taken months and would have cost more than a brand-new pistol. (Unless he is a skilled mechanic and made them himself.)
The shooter carried two full spare magazines on him, which means that he must have prepared for a sustained firefight – or indeed for murdering a handful of people in one go. Why did he go to all that trouble getting hold of two spare magazines for this old-fashioned, none-too-powerful and none-too-accurate gun when he could have purchased a more powerful pistol with a larger magazine capacity for the same money? To my mind, that is weird in the extreme. A gun collector has no need to acquire two spare magazines, whereas a common criminal would prefer a more powerful gun for which ammunition and spare magazines are readily available.
@GuyF I can only think that they are still awaiting some lab results for Mr Mollier which if inconclusive may result in exhuming from his temporary tomb and repeating ..
The gun is a strange thing (so many now!) Apart from the mentioned idea of trying to throw investigators off could it be that whoever killed the victim was a well-retired asset who was revived as a totally deniable assassin (so no state help whatsoever) so had to “make do” with whatever he had. Maybe a old gun collector or he stole from a gun collector.
@Watcher 10 days seems a long time to await lab results ?
@GuyF completely agree 10 days seems long enough for most tox screens, DNA checks etc …. but can’t think of anything else plausible that might mean re-examination. Unless the pathologist was smeared or something
Maybe a old gun collector or he stole from a gun collector.
Yes, but it would have to be a serious gun collector – which should make him quite easy to identify. Still, even if he were a gun collector, or stole from one, he would have to be somewhat deranged to choose this as his preferred weapon for a multiple murder – which he obviously did. One does not carry two spare magazines merely for self-defence purposes. The only valid reasons for doing so are either that one expects to get into a massive shootout or plans to kill about half a dozen people at a time.
Also, he must have practiced magazine-changing and rapid-fire drills with that gun – which would have earned him verystrange looks if he did it on a public shooting range.
Peter.
Why three magazines ?
Do these not hold 8 rounds each….and was not (although who can tell !)
25 rounds fired ?
That’s 3 magazines….and one loaded (with 8 remaining ?).
Also…Peter.
We got rid of that “D Notice” nutter and his “Mossad flight of fantasy” last night !
Ask questions of someone that shouts….and it results in “nada” !
And also “all”. Would not a Luger make a damn lot of noise ?
Single, loud shots. 25 times ?
@Vermillion
So you are suggesting a British asset here? It is possible I guess given the nuclear bomb talk but given Spycatcher/Peter Wright and all that it could it be one unauthorised group within British intelligence services that is acting on its own.
Fiona….
With a 60 plus year old pistol !
He had “never” updated his equipment ?
Or he just liked the past so much he thought he’d shoot them with a “widow maker” ?
Why three magazines ?
Do these not hold 8 rounds each….and was not (although who can tell !)
25 rounds fired ?
The way I read this, 25 rounds equate to 3 magazines of 8 rounds each, plus one round in the breech when he commenced firing.
And, yes, it would have been very noisy, at least initially. Later on, the sound might have been muffled if the shooter stuck the pistol into the car through a hole in the side windows.
Peter….
Actually. Going back on my own point.
I recall the term and practice of “locked and loaded” being shouted.
And the the paractice of “load, cock, remove, add one, reload magazine and reload”
Or put bluntly “one up the spout”. (meaning in the chamber already)
8 plus 1, then an 8 magazine, then an 8 magazine.
@Bluebird there was a recent scare on a coach in the Uk, someone using a fake/nicotine replacement ciggarette in a shopping bag. Looks like bags was smoking … full on terror alert.
Think it was on the M6 or M1 whichever one has a toll road, anyway as well as loads of fire engines, ambulances, police and Royal Logistics Corp Bomb Disposal/ EOD.
As they didn’t know what they were dealing with they set up a full decontamination system.
For me this why the Nuke in the shed theory doesn’t ring true, they would have needed cordons miles away, plus all the gigantic inflatable decontamination processing tents and a larger response by emergency services (as this was in a built up area not on a deserted motorway).
Peter.
Ya got there before me, before I could recall !
Yes I agree with you on that. So the gunman, was indeed “out to kill”.
And this (three magazine..plus one) reads well as to why the girl is pistol whipped.
Peter.
So we have the 25 rounds.
And the noise. Lugers are loud and old.
But in an “open” space. May be a “crack” is all anyone would here.
So, how many shots outside do we have ?
Maybe the shoulder shot to the girl ? (1). And that’s a “maybe”.
And 7 (5 to the body, two to the head) of Mr Mollier ?
So 7 (maybe 8) outside (fully outside) of the car.
@Peter
Agreed my ideas aren’t perfect. But – if it was in his collection then maybe he used a gun that he knew had no paper trail to himself because say he bought it with cash from an old guy. Also if he restores guns he can totally clean the gun of all residue and change the inside of the barrel to alter the markings it gives fired bullets. If he stole it it may not have been noticed so returns it.
Ok maybe not – but either he used the gun mentioned or he used a custom gun that fired the bullets for that gun. There has to be some explanation.
@ James
Yes, we are agreed. Regarding that point about the shooter perhaps sticking his hand with the gun inside the car, I would expect him to have cut himself whilst doing so (if only because the BMW must have rocked quite a bit).
…but why custom a gun to a 7.65 round ? and with such a socket length ?
Peter,
So I would imagine that inside the car there would have been “at least” 2 plus 2, plus 2. Rounds fired.
So we can take out the “coup de grace” with that.
Lets say he walked around the car, doing that.
So how do we “flesh this out”.
I believe that the girl escaped (understanding the central locking system).
25 shots. The first “magazine” is 9 rounds.
What do you think ?
Lets look at the first 9 rounds ?
The problem is it seems ridiculous for a professional to use such a gun. Yet they successfully killed 4 people and left the scene with very few clues. Could the identification of the bullets be based more on the cases (red herring) than the actual bullets?
@ Vermillion
I am not out to criticize anybody, and I don’t understand this thing about that particular gun being used, either.
All I have been able to research is that spare magazines for this particular type of gun are almost impossible to come by (unless one is a skilled mechanic or gunsmith and can make / modify a magazine to fit that gun). That is why I said that he must be, or must have stolen from, a *serious* gun collector.
Although a metal detector and a beach/headland say in Normandy could yield many parts for a ww2 era Luger I would think
Fiona…
What do you mean a “professional killer” ?
A man that gets paid to kill people ?
Or a man that is a “state” killer ?
Both “do a job” …but one is different from the other.
On here (sadly) there are ppl that make you believe that this “had to be” a killing by the state.
They quote “D notices” from sources “unknown” and when questioned, rely soley on insults.
And “planes that take off” without anyone spotting them !
Which is completely (and I speak from experience here) mad.
Becareful. I hope here ppl are looking for the truth…not something that fits what they believe.
Big difference.
Back to Peter. Some good ideas from him.
@Watcher
May a Luger suitable for the local museum but actually firing such a corroded Frankensteingun would more likely kill the shooter than the target.
Luger magazines are easily available to buy from between £19 and £45 each on the internet, so I doubt that additional magazines would be an issue.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=luger+magazine+for+sale&hl=en&safe=off&prmd=imvns&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=xgNWUMxBxreFB97CgNAF&ved=0CD8QrQQ
@ James
James can you leave off with the non stop anders baiting please? Its gone on and on and on for too many hours and, apart from being boring, is quite uncomfortable viewing as well.