My post on the shootings in France has brought tens of thousands of people to this site – but not to read my dull contribution. People are coming to read the comments from other readers.
Today’s development of the bomb squad descending on the al-Hilli house does not in itself worry me enormously. You may recall the massive terror scare that was ramped up when some Muslim students in Manchester were found to own a bag of sugar.
In fact we have the opposite phenomenon today, with the spook-fed “security correspondents” on TV lining up to tell us it is probably just everyday household stuff. This deviation from the standard Islamophobic “Muslims = bombs” narrative is so startling it makes me wonder why the “move along, nothing to see here” line is being taken so quickly.
My own security services sources insist that al-Hilli was not a person of current interest to the UK intelligence agencies and was not involved in anything clandestine. I have no reason to disbelieve them. On the other hand, the limited and confusing information in the media is almost entirely from official sources. I find it very strange indeed how little attention has been paid to the murdered French cyclist, and how easily it is presumed he was just a passerby. Surely it is as likely he was the intended victim and the al-Hillis the accidental witnesses?
Please do read the comments on my first entry on the subject to see the debate unfettered by the censorship in the mainstream media. This is perhaps my favourite comment:
From Janesmith101
All comments regarding Sylvain, Al-Hilli and a possible nuclear link are being removed from sites I’ve posted on in The Guardian, Independent and Huffpo UK.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/sep/09/alps-killer-motive-baffles-police
Here was my comment, I added as a point of fact it was completely speculative and an unproven theory in a later comment, also removed.
Sylvain Mollier, the ‘passing’ cyclist, was in fact a nuclear metallurgist who worked for a french nuclear company called Cezus (a subsidiary of Areva). Cezus fabricates and processes zirconium into metal and nuclear grade zircoaloy for nuclear fuel assemblies – it also has other applications in aerospace such as components and ceramics for missiles and satellites. Mr Al-Hilli was also a skilled aerospace engineer, on what looks to be his first camping holiday.
What is the probability that two highly skilled engineers managed be at the same remote place, at the same time, yet still managed to end up dead as a result of what looks to be a military style assasination?
As someone else pointed out in The Independent comments, the deceased were found by a ‘retired’ RAF officer who, we assume, will recieve perpetual anonymity as a witness. If the police are looking for a motive, try an intercepted rendevous by a security service fixated on denying a hostile power illicit nuclear technology.
http://wrmea.org/component/content/article/162-1995-june/7823-israel-bombs-iraqs-osirak-nuclear-research-facility.html
The Huffington Post UK reports that this wasn’t the family’s first trip to the camp site. An earlier report had asked other camp site visitors whether they had seen the family before and they had replied they hadn’t. If this isn’t wasn’t the first visit by Al-Hilli, it might slightly increase the odds that he knew or had met Mollier before, this being the last in a series of rendevous of a transactional nature. Mollier lived and worked locally.
Again, I’m not sure of the truth of these reports, there is some very sloppy journalism, as there is always seems to be. I’ve read for example Mollier’s company Cevus descirbed as a steel firm something which it is patently not, but perhaps it may have been a detail lost in translation.
An interesting comment summing up some of the strange coincidences, at least, surrounding these murders. My other favourite comment calls me a “macchiavellian shill”.
I have only one thought of my own I want to add at the minute. Al-Hilli was a Shia muslim and had been on pilgrimage to Qoms in Iran. What if it is indeed true that he was in possession of no especial nuclear or defence secrets to pass on to the Iranians, but the Israelis thought that he was? The Israeli programme of assassination of scientists involved in Iran’s nuclear programme is a definite fact. It makes as much sense as anything else at the moment, as a possibility.
I am not saying that is what happened. But the directions in which the mainstream media is being so strenuously pointed by official sources, like the massacre of an entire family over an inheritance, are certainly no more inherently probable. Certainly as we are now told all the shots were from one gun, for the assassin to get each victim in the head with none of them being able to escape, indicates real proficiency with the weapon and a very high level of training.
Bluebird.
Interesting theory & also interesting that there’s been such a silence about AH’s muslim status. I have asked here before , why has not one muslim spoken….. from his mosque community ?
He surely was a practicing muslim …. wasn’t he ?
I think it also unlikely he was building a nuke, I lean towards the chemical variety of destruction, if indeed there was one.
Chemicals stored in a bunker, which is what the police have been drilling.
The gun is “odd”, but may have been stolen.
They made alot of them “way back then”.
And dont forget the Swiss had guns everywhere…National defence.
I have a Swiss friend and they took home guns over the summer to be able to strip and put back together…as “break” homework.
What’s to say that this “wasn’t” picked up…or stolen….or gained by someone.
Although, I say again, it is an “odd” choice.
@Fiona, of course I was thinking the gun was already refurbed or just kept in a box for 60 years, was thinking more about additional magazines, 1 solid piece with replaceable spring etc
@Felix @Ian Boyd Temporar burial likely due to fact forensics may need the bod again or in event of an arrest an prosecution/defence may need another autopsy reuest.
Why should family release a photo? Just to appease conspiracy theorists who think he didnt exist?
I saw on a gun forum someone posted that tens of thousands of the things were brought home by American servicemen after the two World wars, and they were used in Vietnam too, and Mauser released refurbished ones to mark the gun’s 100th year anniversary…so I guess the gun could have come from anywhere.
I saw another post on what other non standard bullets could be used in the thing too. Very little to be found on original spare magazines for it though.
James, I don’t agree, the child would cling to her father, rather than try to escape. I believe she was sitting on someone’s lap in the front,that someone got out of the car leaving her outside too.
I also believe that someone was the assassin.
He knew AH & was a friend they had all had lunch together earlier, hence the smart clothes, he was in on the deal………waiting for Mollier to arrive with whatever. Once the info had been exchanged …bang.
The motorbike was waiting off they went.
Or I do have another throery.
Lets look at the first 9 rounds ?
That’s almost impossible, @ James.
From looking at this image
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/09/07/article-2200036-14DEF9C4000005DC-584_968x947.jpg
I would guess that the very first shot was fired from the front-left of the car, entered the windscreen high near the middle and exited through the roof on the right-hand side, near the “missing” rail of the bicycle carrier. I would guess that this shot was either fired after Mr al-Hilli realized that his family was in danger and hit reverse, or that this shot made him hit reverse.
What happened after that, I don’t know. Judging from my own stupidity in always forgetting that UK cars are RHD, I would not rule out the possibility that the shooter then attacked the “wrong” side of the car, where the elder daughter was sitting.
In doing so, he *may* have cut himself. There is a second shot through the windscreen that entered low on the left-hand side, just above the instrument pod and *probably* caught Mr al-Hilli straight in the chest or face. Almost in line with the point at which that shot entered through the windscreen, there is a circular, rust-brown stain on the bonnet. My personal hunch is that this stain is the shooter’s own blood, after he cut himself on the passenger-side window. I have recreated the scenario and found that, for a shot that low to miss the instrument pod and hit the driver instead, the gun must have been pointing at a steep upward angle. I have found only two ways of recreating that shot: Either by crouching or kneeling in front of the car, or by leaning on the bonnet and angling the gun upwards. I *suppose* that the latter is the case: this stain is the shooter’s own blood as he got off his first shot at Mr al-Hilli. Next, he would have moved around to the driver’s side of the car and got off some more shots at Mr al-Hilli.
However, all this is pure guesswork.
Dopey…
I didnt mention him ?
But I will say, I questioned someone that to me it was clear was “pumping” a story.
Two actually.
And nothing came of it. I wish this thread stuck to “looking at evidence”.
Not “wild” theories..that are without basis.
Peter had his treattment, so did others.
I also had it. And I find ppl shouting “shrill” or “spook” or “unwitty” bar scenes…as ridiclous.
I dont know idf this is the work of “bad men” or “a random act”….but I will not listen to “the establishment” OR to “ex snooker presenters stooges” pushing crackpot ideas…and I will say so.
Now ENOUGH !
I’m leaning towards the theory that the girl was already outside and the gunman grabbed her first. That would likely stop the father driving away before the shooting started.
How she came to be then shot in the shoulder however with that theory I don’t know. I feel she was shot because she got between the shooter and one of the targets, and maybe battered before she got shot.
@ peter
But from pics we’ve seen of the car the windscreen was intact? All the front and rear door windows were smashed, but not the windscreen.
@Dopey, agree girl was probably outside.
Killer seizes girl, pistol whips to extort info – nothing from AH
Shoots girl in shoulder – AH hands over whatever he was peddling
Killer has got we he needs, eliminate witnesses and scarper.
Sylvain Molliere photo?
http://www.acafc.net/pages/ACAFC_les_instructeurs_de_la_FFCA-336873.html
Peter…
All we have is that (guess work).
But it’s good.
I also drive on the left…and I think that a “national” may have gone to hat side.
I debate wether two shots where fired into the windscreen, I do see (my view) at least one.
But lets start with what you think.
Would have Al Hilli driven “at the shooter” or, like many “away”.
I guess, away. Hence reverse.
So are you saying, they all were in the car when this happened ?
Which the says, when they arrived, or were leaving ?
If then “when arriving”, why not wait (if a “pro”, run up to Al Hilli and shoot. You can wear a mask, the family will be in shock…and the first part of the getaway could take place.
Hence I dont think it was a “hit” by the Govt.com.
Does that make sense ?
At last, we have a sensible poster. Yippee.
But from pics we’ve seen of the car the windscreen was intact? All the front and rear door windows were smashed, but not the windscreen.
No, the windscreen has two beermat-sized entry holes in it, as described. Exit holes, after the bullet is deformed and slowed down, are much larger and much messier than entry holes. They look more like someone has taken a hammer to the window. See the big jagged hole on the front passenger side
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/09/07/article-2200036-14DEF9C4000005DC-584_968x947.jpg
That’s an exit hole. Entry holes, by contrast, are neat little circular holes surrounded by a beermat-sized area of neat circular crazing.
Dopey
Re windscreen. Laminated.
May not go “star crazed”
How do you upload a pic !!! But there are ones with a shot hitting it and not “breaking”
Also (oddly) watch those U.S. cop shows. Live News Copter above type things. Police fire at the windshield….and its like “powder coming off”, it doesn’t “break”.
@Straw44berry Interesting, I see he’s a bowhunter .. I wonder if weaponry also featured in his career.
Also is this link only posted to this site? Be interesting if that image suddenly starts popping up on the news sites etc
If this is the right Sylvain by google searching his email add:
[email protected] i get this hit
http://aciers.free.fr/index.php/2010/06/page/2/
Coincidence??
@All sidepoint, is the term ‘crazing’ or ‘star crazed’ commonplace, I’ve never heard a shattered but intact window described in those exact words?
http://aciers.free.fr/index.php/2010/06/page/2/
his email is :
[email protected]
that email when used in a google search leads to the metallurgy page
print keep this info to avoid it going 404
I think shots to the front widscreen.
Obviously shots to the side windows….
With that in mind. How does he “double tap” them through the drivers door and two rear pax doors, when they are locked (I think front pax could get out, even whilst cental locking is on)
One shot in (breaks glass) then two shots ?
Any ideas ???
Good find strawberry.
Is it the right Sylvain though?
There seems to be a Sylvain Mollier and a Sylvain Molliere, both living not far off the Lyons area, but with different jobs and employers.
Here’s the linkedin profile for the Sylvain Molliere I think the photo is of.
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/sylvain-molliere/47/14a/776
OK.
Time and date noted.
…and I doubt anyone would have found that website.
So lets see.
You only posted it on here ?
I think this will be interesting now.
James he doesn’t, he has the door open, because he’s been the passenger he can override any child locks.
He does the double taps trés vite, slams the car door which goes back onto lock, girl still outside, as he leaves he sprays the windows with bullets to be sure, grazing the child, as for the ‘pistol whip’ … for a fractured skull that girl sure was flying soon after.
Katie.
I can’t see that at all.
Explain from the start ?
He’s in the pax side…next to the driver ?
Tell me why ? Why the windscreen shots ? and do a run through as you see it.
@tony Roma “the story is dead yet they keep changing the guns.
keep changin the story.”
No -one is changing anything so far as I see. The French Police are the only ones whose info I take as gospel.All they have revealed is size of bullets used,everything else is speculation.
@anybody WHy should the media have a picture of Moullier? If the family do not wish to have one released then obviously media respects this.No pics have emerged of wife and Mother in law or children so are we to assume they dont exist either?
Ok how about a bow hunter metallurgist that makes his own hunting knives
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?act=url&depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.co.uk&sl=fr&tl=en&twu=1&u=http://www.acafc.net/article-22606747.html&usg=ALkJrhg1JtLs-0cVNUZVPBH_sDfp4gwKrA
I searched the original Sylvain pic site for Sylvain and came up with 3 pages, link above shows he was making hunting knives to a high standard, kinda fits with metallurgy.
Although … next link we have little prob
http://www.acafc.net/article-joyeux-anniversaire-sylvain-108437834.html
Different pic also called Sylvain, result found as above searching the bow hunting site