I am off to Baghdad on Sunday for an Arab League conference on Palestinian detainees held in Israel. This is part of my determination to devote more of my time to helping the Palestinian cause. It seems to me we are at a crucial point where the Palestinians are in genuine danger of an accelerated genocide, as Israeli intentions to annex Est Jerusalem and the West Bank become ever plainer.
In retrospect, my life has mostly been based on the idea that I may not be able to do much to help in a particular situation, but it is incumbent on me to try. So I am trying.
A “two state” solution has, from the start, been advanced in bad faith by promoters such as Blair and Bush, with the intention always that it would be a Bantustan solution. For those too young to recall, the grand plan of apartheid South Africa was that the black population would be corraled into a number of small regions which would become “independent states”.
I have said before that I am often pleasantly surprised by Sky News security correspondent Sam Kiley, who seems to get away with talking great sense by hiding behind a Ross Kemp style persona. A couple of days ago he reported from the West Bank that Israel was “moving towards an apartheid state”. There is no doubt that is true – even in Israel proper, there are over three hundred ethnically based Israeli laws prescribing different treatment for Jews and others, across almost every activity of the state. I fear Sam Kiley will not be on mainstream TV long – a tendency to tell the truth being career fatal.
Bibi’s desire to kill off the two state solution is a terrible, genocidal threat but strangely also an opportunity. Botha and De Klerk did not succeed, and Bibi may not either. I personally would have deplored a Bantustan based solution, with crammed and split Palestinian lands deprived of resources, water, communications and any hope of economic viability.
The ultimate solution must involve a proper single state in Israel/Palestine which is blind and fair in its laws to race and religion. That solution can ultimately bring security to the people of Israel, not based on their ability to kill or evict their neighbours and steal their land. The essentials of the agreement will have to be most people staying where they are – including most West Bank settlers – and very serious compensation to dispossessed Palestinians, with the settlements enlarged to become mixed communities.
On the Palestinian detainee question, for me it shows up yet again Israel’s extraordinary capacity for shameless sophistry in matters of international law. Israel justifies its naval blockade on the San Remo Convention, which is only applicable in times of armed conflict. Israel states that it is in a de facto permanent armed conflict. However it denies being in an armed conflict when it comes to its treatment of Palestinain detainees, captured outside Israel, who are not treated as prisoners of war. Both positions cannot be held simultaneously, but secure in the collusion of the West’s bought politicians, Israel does so.
A number of speakers explain the detailed case for a cultural & academic boycott of Israel, with an intro by Ken Loach
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPvV8QZE35w&feature=youtu.be
Sorry, typo in previous comment. Strike the word ‘in’:
A new study on why people believe misinformation includes…
Harry is reporting F16’s flying over Gaza some 4 hrs. ago, wonder why that should be, has Israel announced common military manoeuvres with Egypt’s Muslim brotherhood?
Turning the West Bank into a part of Israel proper (1 state solution) would spell the end of Israel as you well know. And if that is what you want, do you believe that Jews would be able to live in this new environment (maybe 50-60 years from now) free from fear of persecution?
It would spell the beginning if it could be done amicably and with due recognition of both sides’ requirements. If being an extremely large word, obviously. Turning the West Bank into a de facto part of Israel, with a bunch of disconnected subsistence farmers whose resentment at the settlement of their land and interference with their living is bound to erupt into violence periodically, looks less like a peaceful solution to me.
I don’t think the Jews will ever be able to live anywhere without fear of persecution. It’s built-in to the culture. Sorry. Whether the fear is justified depends, as it always has done, on their willingness to integrate with other cultures in an increasingly crowded world.
Thank you for the discussion, anyway.
You speak about Meir Kahana as if his views are common place in Israel. They are not. There are an extreme few
Kahanites-lite are however the third largest part in Israel; hardly an ‘extreme few’.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yisrael_Beiteinu
Nevermind – they do it for shits and giggles. They used to do it supersonic, for the bangs, at night…don’t know if they still do.
Thanks, Old Mark. My link was to Netanyahu’s personal site, and a letter to the rest of the world by…Meir Kahane. Whose links with Bibi go way back.
Liebermann is not unknown to Kahane, either –
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/lieberman-was-involved-in-radical-right-kach-movement-1.269330
That’s the two top pols in Israel….
Supplementary – historical –
http://www.mombu.com/culture/egypt/t-israeli-sonic-booms-terrorising-gaza-12809786.html
Still going on….
Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said that, “thousands of residents in southern Israel live in fear and discomfort, so I gave instructions that nobody will sleep at night in the meantime in Gaza .” The clear intention of the practice is to pressure the Palestinian Authority and the armed Palestinian organizations by harming the entire civilian population.
http://www.btselem.org/gaza_strip/supersonic_booms
I’d put it more like “reprisals on noncombatants” myself. But what care we for the Geneva Convention?
Komodo – I must be honest with you and tell you that I took great offence to what you said. You have suggested that it’s the Jews own fault for their persecution. I’ve heard things like that before in 1930’s era Germany but certainly didn’t expect to hear that in 2012.
“I don’t think the Jews will ever be able to live anywhere without fear of persecution. It’s built-in to the culture. Sorry.” – No need to be sorry. This statement alone sums up the need for the Jews to have their own homeland. And I can assure you that we DO feel free with no threat of persecution while walking the streets of Tel Aviv, Jerusalem and beyond. Thank you though, for confirming to me that our needs are justified.
And I thank you, too, for taking the time to discuss.
Kind regards,
Oniel
Oniel.
Your religion, like your fears is all in your fucking head.
Now liar and troll that you are. Fuck Off.
If you think that was harsh, see it from another’s point of view.
We’ve had: a stream of lies, lame excuses for genocidal mass murder, victimhood card, schmolocaust guilt, some of my best friends are … and more –what an amateur.
Definitely a decline in the standard of trolls assigned to this blog.
If that’s what you think I said, Oniel, you are mistaken. The entire mythos of the Jewish religion (which as far as I can tell defines the people, otherwise you would accept the Canaanites as your own, but I’ve noticed that if I consider the Jews as X, they will invariably contradict me because they are Y ) is based on repeated expulsions and persecutions. By the Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Romans, any tribe in the Levant you care to name, most of Europe…the culture has adapted to deal with it after a fashion by incorporating it. And what is the basis of the persecution?
It is a highly conspicuous and exclusive failure to do as the Romans do – the paranoia gives rise to the ghetto, the ghetto gives rise to the paranoia of the host country, and this gives rise to yet another outbreak of antisemitism, another exodus, forced or not.
I mention the Romans. Any religion getting persecuted under Imperial Rome had to be out on a limb. Astarte was fine, if a bit louche. Diana of the Ephesians, formerly known as Artemis,was greatly respected by the Augustans. The Egyptian pantheon, collectively, and Ahura-Mazda were all worshipped in Rome and its provinces pretty well without let or hindrance. But the Jews? And the Christians, who were regarded as a sort of chav Jew? What went wrong?
When you can answer that question without calling me an antisemite, come back and we can continue.
Cryptonym – A dissenting voice always livens up a discussion, even if it is reading from a script.
🙂
Dear Abby’s Moral Dilemmas,
I was having a chat with my burglar last night. I say burglar, but he’s more than that. He’s killed two of my kids as well and raped the wife a few times, and laid claim to the front bedroom and livingroom and says we can’t use the hall and we’re on restricted access to the kitchen and toilet.
Yes, I’ve called the police but they say they can’t do anything. I have to discuss it with him.
Anyway, he was saying that my presence was threatening him and if I didn’t stop he’d kill my baby daughter too.
The thing is Abby, is it wrong of me not to like him?
Cryptonym – Unless you can point out one lie from me, it would seem that you, sir are the troll. How about you fuck off
Komodo – That is exactly the point. What went wrong? I can’t answer that question, and i feel that it is your job to tell me what went wrong. I am not the one justifying their persecution, you are. And therefore you would need to have a reason for it
Cryptonym, regarding your reply to me in a discussion of nuclear reactors:
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2012/12/leveson-wrong-answer-to-the-wrong-question/#comment-384160
you demonstrated that you would criticise something without seeking out the necessary understanding of it. Later, at 1:11 pm, you demonstrated that you were aware of your own prejudice in that matter:
We have here a visit from a supporter of Israel. This is a chance for a discussion, a furthering of understanding and an exposition of diverse viewpoints. I ask you to contemplate your own failings, of which you seem somewhat aware, and to consider retracting your offensive remarks towards Oniel Samuel, whom Craig has engaged in debate. Craig has specifically stated that he welcomes contributors with viewpoints that differ from his own.
@ Cebuano – News of the UN’s request to inspect Israels nuclear facilities was reported in a handful of alternative leaning places like the Washington Post and Russia Today. No mention as ever by the BBC who report every murmur of suspicion over Iran’s Nuclear facilities. 8 hour ago RT reports: “Israel has rebuffed a UN call to adhere to the Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty (NPT) and open itself to international inspectors, calling the suggestion a ‘meaningless mechanical vote’ ”
@ Oniel – I respect and appreciate you representing here, however it seems an impossible effort. We quite carefully and certainly observe our News outlets headlining and condemning every paramilitary attack on Israel -which would be commendable if they did not sideline and respectfully deliver official Israeli statements on its attacks (renamed ‘operations’) on Palestinians. To find out the actual measure of human harm of these attacks – its most dense and discernible measure of the number of people killed and maimed, we have to research because such fundamental facts are heavily, heavily repressed in our Media and eclipsed with high level analysis and discussion. The repressed base reality is extremely damming – that for a decade or so Israel has killed in the order of *one hundred times* as many people as it has suffered in its conflict. And breakdowns and contextualisations of that fundamental substance (gross human harm) offer no revision. If you can comment of this graph of conflict casualties which preceded ‘Operation’ Cast Lead that would be exceptional. To my knowledge that is an unbiased and material representation of a significant conflict period – a raw unweighted quite accurate graph in time of casualties. It quantifies the heart of matter – who is harmed, killed, how many, when? It is clear in the graph without enhancements or sidenotes that Israels ‘operations’ killed in grave numbers, throughout months of it suffering no casualties at all and quite consistently preceding all much, much lesser casualties to its own. And this is going on while its ‘terrorist’ foe is blockaded and settled and imprisoned and then demolished and bombed 1400 dead, 300 dead children – during Cast Lead. That is called the Gaza War now – what is a War between Tanks, Bombers, Troops and Houses, rockets, paramilitaries? Its not war, it is cull.
Oniel i sympathise with your concerns “consider this historical narrative..”,”can we be certain of peace?”, but such talk is limitless and all there is to justify the killing and robbing of foes who can manage little response or offense of their own.
Historical narratives and fears are not excuses for inhumanity.
I’d like to remind many contributors here that being one against many, as Oniel Samuel is here, is a very uncomfortable position. Having been in such a position myself (when I defended my guest-post on Tallbloke’s climate change denial blog), I can tell you that it is highly stressful and demanding.
Oniel Samuel, I expect that I disagree with you in many ways, but I respect your methods of argument.
Chomsky in AlterNet yesterday:
“An old man in Gaza held a placard that read: “You take my water, burn my olive trees, destroy my house, take my job, steal my land, imprison my father, kill my mother, bombard my country, starve us all, humiliate us all, but I am to blame: I shot a rocket back.”
http://www.alternet.org/world/noam-chomsky-what-american-media-wont-tell-you-about-israel
Clark: While I sort of agree with your point, should we treat (say) proponents of wife-beating, Nazis, white supremacists etc. with courtesy too, as long as their methods of argument are reasonable?
Oniel Samuel, I said I respected your method of argument, but our comments crossed, and I see this from you:
I feel that this is unfair. Komodo did not appear to me to be justifying repeated persecution, but rather, pointing it out. Please resist polarisation of the debate, which can only lead to further antagonism. I do acknowledge that your position here is demanding.
Clark I admire your humanism but our new friend came here for a purpose. It was his choice.
Komodo – That is exactly the point. What went wrong? I can’t answer that question, and i feel that it is your job to tell me what went wrong.
I’ve told you what I think went wrong. And it isn’t my job anyway.
I am not the one justifying their persecution, you are. …..
Please observe the difference between “justifying” and “attempting to describe”. No persecution on the grounds of religion or any other notional difference is justifiable. As they say in Gaza. While also observing that a lot of stuff happens which is not justifiable.
Thatcrab – Thank you for the response.
To me it is clear that communication between the two sides is key. What we are faced with right now is an endless blame game, conversing through the media, and precisely ZERO progress. The trust issue is obviously an important one. I can see this first hand even just from my visit to this site. I have had words put into my mouth – mostly from people who don’t know anything about me or my views. Just because I am pro Israel doesn’t necessarily make me anti – Palestinian. It seems that this simplistic idea cannot be grasped by few too many people.
With regard to your post, you have gone down the route of dis proportionality. So I ask: If more Israelis were killed, would that make the war more fair and more acceptable to Israel’s detractors? Another thing: You didn’t mention Hamas human shield policy. Why? And my final question: If rockets (albeit cheap ones) were aimed at your house and you had to stop them from being fired, would you use cheap home made rockets (even though you had access to more accurate ‘expensive’ ones), just to please those who call you ‘Disproportionate’?
Kind regards
S’okay, Clark, thanks. I like this one. He’s funny.
glenn_uk, we have here a visit from one person. Contributors should not be heaping all the evil deeds of Israel upon an individual merely because they are a convenient target. Until discussion proceeds further, we do not know much about what this person actually believes, wishes, or works towards.
I fight will reveal nothing. A debate might get us somewhere. I know what Oneil’s position on this blog is like. When I argued at Tallblokes, I was accused of believing in climate change because I wanted to cull the human population of poorer countries.
Once again, thank you Clark. And yes, I agree. I promise I will try to do better! 😉
If someone stole your house with the full blessing of the State, Oniel, might you not consider that you’d have to do something about getting it back? And if the guy whose garden the firework landed in called in an F16 strike to try and prevent you (hasn’t worked for 40+ years though, has it?) from reclaiming your own, wouldn’t you get the idea that the gloves were off and this was war? No? You pacifist, you. Bet you dodged service in the IDF, lol.