I am off to Baghdad on Sunday for an Arab League conference on Palestinian detainees held in Israel. This is part of my determination to devote more of my time to helping the Palestinian cause. It seems to me we are at a crucial point where the Palestinians are in genuine danger of an accelerated genocide, as Israeli intentions to annex Est Jerusalem and the West Bank become ever plainer.
In retrospect, my life has mostly been based on the idea that I may not be able to do much to help in a particular situation, but it is incumbent on me to try. So I am trying.
A “two state” solution has, from the start, been advanced in bad faith by promoters such as Blair and Bush, with the intention always that it would be a Bantustan solution. For those too young to recall, the grand plan of apartheid South Africa was that the black population would be corraled into a number of small regions which would become “independent states”.
I have said before that I am often pleasantly surprised by Sky News security correspondent Sam Kiley, who seems to get away with talking great sense by hiding behind a Ross Kemp style persona. A couple of days ago he reported from the West Bank that Israel was “moving towards an apartheid state”. There is no doubt that is true – even in Israel proper, there are over three hundred ethnically based Israeli laws prescribing different treatment for Jews and others, across almost every activity of the state. I fear Sam Kiley will not be on mainstream TV long – a tendency to tell the truth being career fatal.
Bibi’s desire to kill off the two state solution is a terrible, genocidal threat but strangely also an opportunity. Botha and De Klerk did not succeed, and Bibi may not either. I personally would have deplored a Bantustan based solution, with crammed and split Palestinian lands deprived of resources, water, communications and any hope of economic viability.
The ultimate solution must involve a proper single state in Israel/Palestine which is blind and fair in its laws to race and religion. That solution can ultimately bring security to the people of Israel, not based on their ability to kill or evict their neighbours and steal their land. The essentials of the agreement will have to be most people staying where they are – including most West Bank settlers – and very serious compensation to dispossessed Palestinians, with the settlements enlarged to become mixed communities.
On the Palestinian detainee question, for me it shows up yet again Israel’s extraordinary capacity for shameless sophistry in matters of international law. Israel justifies its naval blockade on the San Remo Convention, which is only applicable in times of armed conflict. Israel states that it is in a de facto permanent armed conflict. However it denies being in an armed conflict when it comes to its treatment of Palestinain detainees, captured outside Israel, who are not treated as prisoners of war. Both positions cannot be held simultaneously, but secure in the collusion of the West’s bought politicians, Israel does so.
Oniel – Israeli Human Shield tactics:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3154142,00.html
http://www.hrw.org/news/2010/11/26/israel-soldiers-punishment-using-boy-human-shield-inadequate
Given, that graph does not show a cessation in rockets, I did mis-describe that. But I do not know how many rockets were really fired, or who really fires them, I just know from the graph that Israel suffered no casualties for months and returned eg. 15 deaths in November after no effectual attacks for three months.
The graph shows 20 Israelis killed that year by all Palestinian attacks, oddly – less harm than its road traffic causes, and on the other hand 411 Palestinians were killed by all Israeli attacks. A ratio of 1:20 > lives. It is followed in December the next year, by 1400 Palestinians killed and 14 Israelis in “Operation” Cast Lead -a ratio of 1:100 > lives.
It is not enough to correct an aside and move on from details like these Oniel. You should condemn the greater violence of Israel at that time revealed by that graph, if you do mean peace.
Ben-Gurion admitted in his memoirs that he had never suffered from anti-Semitism in his native Poland: “For many of us, anti-Semitic feeling had little to do with our dedication [to Zionism]. I personally never suffered anti-Semitic persecution. Plonsk was remarkably free of it”
He just wanted the land for the sake if it. The insane Nazi genuine persecution of Jews came later.
Oniel
“Fred – Yes it is. And I don’t think the settlement enterprise is a good idea. If anything, they are provocative and make the situation worse”
It’s more than not a good idea, it’s more than provocative, it is illegal, it is a crime, it is unjust.
It is no different to someone holding a gun to someone else’s head and taking their wallet.
I’m not a Palestinian and I have no dislike of the Jewish people, all I have is a natural sense of justice, a belief in right and wrong, good and evil. The Palestinians did nothing to deserve having their country taken from them, they are the victims, the one with the gun committing the crime is the criminal.
This Captain oneil follows is no ordinary Captain
https://www.facebook.com/CaptainBarakRaz/info
Oniel, thank you for your kind post of earlier today. Terribly sorry, but whether you wake up or not in the morning is a matter of profound indifference to me. 🙂
I am glad the shekel is dropping. I won’t annoy anybody by saying the obvious but I am longer in the tooth in this area. I used to comment on Dissident Voice before they took comments off due to the ‘traffic’ from the Z supporters. There used to be one there whose Facebook photo revealed an Israeli military uniform.
btw Judea and Samaria is their new name for the Occupied Territories. By giving the land a biblical name, it belongs to them you see.
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/reporters-challenge-state-department-judea-and-samaria-passport-stamp-revealed-ei
Spot on post, Herbie (at 5.08 pm). I too have the impression that govts., authorities, etc are more willing to simply brazen things out than they used to be. And the step from that to violent forms of speech/thought/action represssion is but a short one, I fear.
Christian Zionists would do well to review the Parable of the good Samaritan, Mary.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism
As to the alternative to the Two-State model, the sticking point is the Dome of the Rock/ Solomons’ Temple. Religious symbolism is the problema. Neither Jew nor Muslim take any stock in Graven Images, which is what this is. Just as people get upset when protestors burn the American flag, which is not a holy relic, so too are monuments to Historicity, not Holy in and of themselves. They are merely symbols, having no inherent value save human emotion.
And even if you don’t believe there was a Temple erected by King Solomon, many folks do.
That’s the problem.
Where is my namesake ONIEL this evening?
How strange not to hear his dulcet tones and read his sweet reasonableness.
Is he by any chance treating his lady wife to a “sausage” supper (not pork, of course) ?
[Jon/Mod: Posted as O’Neil, in fact this is Habbabkuk – sock-puppetting is discouraged here]
Again, I must swim against the tide of opinions here about Biblical references. In that regard, I’m swimming up the Jordan as I remind folks the Bible clearly states that the concern Israelites would make a monument over Moses grave, Is the reason yahweh hid it. I don’t really know what Zionists take from that, except they know the masses revere the Temple ruins, and can exploit it.
Still no comment from the west on what’s going on in Egypt. Have our national media asked William Hague for a reaction? What does Hillary Clinton think about what kicked off just two days after she left Cairo?
Our Governments are clearly content with a theocratic dictator, now that the old secular one is no longer there. Perhaps Morsi has the same mania for privatisation as Mubarak. Or maybe he’s a man who can be trusted not to give too much support to Gaza.
@Ben
Not sure if you can view this outside of the uk. If so, try a proxy.
Derren Brown, a tv magician/hypnotist, sets out to see if a person can be induced to kill with mind control techniques. He even talks about Sirhan Sirhan. Don’t forget, it’s all showbiz.
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/derren-brown-the-experiments/4od#3242945
No respondez, Phil. I assume you’re debunking. If so you can do better than a hypnotist who uses standard techniques wherein people WILL NOT perform contrary to conscience.
Monarch is a fish of a different kettle, my friend.
I am still here O’neil, thanks for caring!
Anyway, I’m off guys another evil Zionist bites the dust. It gets to a point where reasoned debate cannot be had and sometimes feels like you’re talking to school children. It’s very frustrating when I raise an opinion which differs to some, it is straight away shot down as Zionist propaganda. Not a great arena in which to attempt to find common ground.
Of course there are the odd few who don’t limit themselves to those tactics and I’d like to thank Nevermind, Clark, Thatcrab and Komodo for your different view points.
Good night
Oniel
Sock puppets should stick to watching Sesame Street.
“it is straight away shot down as Zionist propoganda”
If a person cannot persuade by logical argumentation that they are not spouting hollow propaganda, it would, by very definition, confirm that they are indeed spouting hollow propaganda.
Hi all.
I agree with Clark and Craig, we should welcome people of differing views here, so that we can learn about the other side’s arguments and concerns. If supporters of Israel and Palestine, who each have not been personally affected by the violence, cannot discuss the Middle East crisis, then what hope of getting representatives from each country around the table without preconditions?
Oniel, thanks for posting here, please stick around. I’m a moderator here, but this blog prides itself on not deleting opposing views, and I think both sides can learn from each other. Ignore the insults, which I sure will be supplanted with questions and discourse anyway!
Ben,
Actually Darren Brown “proved” that he could create a hypnotised assassin. This version might be available in the USA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oC9J6O6soHA – or it might not.
Thanks Jon and Clark for discouraging the ‘hand-sanitizer’ making us all dismissive of alternative POV. If someone posts with authentic opinions, attitudes and beliefs, it is imperative we seek to embrace the discussion, for our own sake. Emotions run at full tilt on many subjects, but it is best to remember; anger is a poor instructor.
As to sock-puppets; once identified they should be banned. JMO.
Thanks Anon, and apologies to Phil for my assumption.
The jigsaw is taking shape for me. The pushback on anti-semitism has to be performed by those Jews who eschew Zionism, just as violent Jihad has to be publicly denounced by Muslims of good faith. Is that gonna happen?
Oniel Samuel says ““William Hague is certainly bought and paid for” – Oh my, another conspiracy theorist. Must have been those Zio Nazi’s over at Aipac who paid him off”
William Hague was bought and paid for since the age of 15 when he joined a British ZIonist Loyalty group. The same group 80% of Conservative MPs are a member off. Hague always has been funded by the Rothschild-Masonic-Zionists.
When Hague called the Zionist attack on the people of Gaza in 2008/2009 ( operation cast lead ) ‘disproportionate’ the Zionists decimated Hague’s funding. Since then Hague has been a staunch Israel Firster
Oniel you have been a well mannered advocate for a globally and politically powerful Human Rights abuser on a Human Rights blog, most impressive in your manners. Amongst the protests and appeals I did not read you make much contact with the material concerned, which is of the gravest concern. What is also related to the subject if not your own view is support for ‘operations’ in Syria, Iran, Pakistan, anywhere which Might claims threatening intentions on. Justification of dominant military aggression has brought and brings on industrialised horror to peoples, impoverishes and saps the souls of everyone, it doesn’t do bodycounts it does projections and casts aspersions and bad faith all around, for the spite and fear and vanity and for spoils of war.
I took a brief look at your twitter feed, since you link it freely with your id/name. A certain number of your detracting followers seemed so primitive and misjudged as to seem oddly unreal. The terrorist advocate, the brainless emotional bimbo.. Its like you are being hazed, or cast in a better light by them. Web communication is wild. There are some commenters here I find puzzlingly unconvincing and erratic but there is no accounting for character and muses either.
Best luck to your best instincts Oniel’ And to Craig and fine Mary and the blog chorus 🙂
Just watched that Derren Brown again – I’d only caught the end of it when it was actually broadcast. Very interesting. Brown actually uses techniques based on those used in MK-Ultra experiments. He specifically attempts to emulate methods which might have been used on the assassin of Robert Kennedy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirhan_Sirhan
Derren Brown is an interesting man.
Ben Franklin, we get very little sock-puppetting, but certainly deleting it where I find it might help reduce it further. Good idea.
For the people who gave Oniel a roasting, I wonder whether a different analysis might be worthy of consideration. On this topic: I tried some while back to persuade a couple of posters that part of the solution might be working with good Jewish activists who are themselves in favour of peace – without success.
So, here’s an idea. For a moment, analyse the Israel and Palestine problem by class rather than by nationality, and see what you think the ramifications are. When I put this to a socialist friend he said he said it was useful, since progressive people who would not normally celebrate violent strains of nationalism could fall into the trap of encouraging it in the Palestinian case, as they considered it a lesser evil compared to permanent and overpowering Israeli violence.
For me, looking at these societies by class helps identify that each side has a population who are broadly in favour of peace and security, and each side has at least part of its elite which is violent, racist, militarist and anti-peace. This leads me to think that part of the solution could be a worldwide, people-powered effort connecting ordinary people on both sides, to short-circuit their (sometimes) aggressive leaders.
I know Avaaz isn’t popular here, but something like that group, might be able to do it. I wonder whether the Occupy Wall Street and cost-of-living protests in Israel, being more likely to be young and progressive, would be more open to such a daring initiative, compared to their heavily propagandised parents?
Now, nothing I am saying here means I am not sympathising with the Palestinians, nor am I saying that the fault is equally split. Only one country is being occupied by the other, and it is quite clear who is suffering the disproportionate casualties and indignities. But, as a poster said earlier, we need to look forward not backwards.
Last point, which I put to those two posters back in August, and I put this to the angrier posters here. If you were the chief facilitator for talks between the two sides, what would your guiding principles be? The above would be mine, and (I think) it finds a way to be even handed enough to ensure the Israeli delegation does not leave the table within the first five minutes.
Thatcrab: “14 Israelis in “Operation” Cast Lead -a ratio of 1:100”
Should be 10, at least 4 were acknowledged killed by their own side’s ‘friendly’ fire, firing indiscriminately at anything that moved, rather than the propaganda line of targeted killing has its risks. Combatant IDF aggressors too rather than civilians, an important distinction.
“we get very little sock-puppetting, but certainly deleting it where I find it might help reduce it further”
Deletion is better for identification purposes, Jon.
Jon: The problem with that such class analysis is that the left have got nowhere, have suffered setback after setback to paraphrase Marx, gone backward in this country at least in terms of union power, wage levels, maximum working week (hours), paid leave, employment conditions etc. -by having foisted on them utopian notions of international solidarity which freeze any advance being made in any one place and spreading from there by the unfavourable comparisions that would result. The assumption that the working class are some angelic beings, that the poorer by their poverty are inherently ‘good’ you’ll recognise is flawed, they share with the middle and upper classes some of the most appalling bigoted discriminatory views, inculcated perhaps rather than intrinsic. There is majority favouring peace and security for all, not just for their sort, but class cannot delimit them too well.
Cryptonym – class is still be a better delimiter than nationality. In any case, you don’t have to be a Marxist to recognise that psychopaths tend to rise to the top in all power structures.
Finding people on both sides that dislike their own government shouldn’t be too hard – doesn’t that describe most people around the world? Those people can be reached out to, and incrementally loosened from the racism and propaganda of their own state.
Addendum: you’re right that I was using a socialist approach. How people do their class analysis is up to them, but for me the “working class” in this context is “anyone who needs to work for a living”, which would include the intellectuals and middle classes as well. It’s the layer at the top of society that lives off the labour of others – the controlling class, or the elite, which tends to contain the psychopaths.