I am delighted that a new canpaign has started today against the state enforced child slavery in the uzbek cotton industry, especially as this campaign originates in Germany, where a significant portion of society appears to have finally woken up to the reality of the German government’s appalling complicity in the Nazi style regime and atrocities of Karimov.
However in the UK it remains the case that since the coalition government came to power, there has not been one single government statement on the human rights atrocities in Uzbekistan or – even more damning of our sham democracy – one single statement or question from New Labour.
An article co-authored by Arbed re the onslaught by the MSM against Assange (in my view one of the reasons that more people aren’t supporting him than probably should).
Propaganda in Grey or Black: Vendetta against WikiLeaks, the ‘Liberal’ Press and Films that Threaten History
http://marthamitchelleffect.org/#/cases-of-the-old-media-2/4572966061
@habbabuk: “explicitly said that what the Israelis did to the Palestinians was worse than what the Nazis did to the Jews.”
Not did, there is nothing past-tense about it. It is still ongoing remorselessly.
This might have been the comment:
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/01/uzbek-cotton-slavery-campaign/comment-page-4/#comment-390764
Or more succinctly in a later comment:
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/01/uzbek-cotton-slavery-campaign/comment-page-5/#comment-390983
“Yes, it is worse, it is the effect of the the intensity of the persecution, multiplied by the duration, in the Palestinian’s case it has been 65 years. The dead no longer suffer.”
It you H who erected the straw man of a simple body count, belittling high child mortality or any consideration of the Palestinian population now, with what it might have been without such protracted persecutions and killing, a demographic and democratic nightmare for the religious supremacist Zionist state. Not forgetting the high mortality of the original generations of refugees driven out in the immediate months and years after 1948, not all outright massacred but ravaged and by starvation and disease, all attributable to Israel’s murderous and insane actions. Terrified, bewildered people who watched their children and older folk die off first. Mere numbers don’t encompass it.
You have not addressed the multiplying factor of the timescale of the persecution, across multiple generations, 65 years vs. the 6 years of ww2, if you don’t think such equality has yet been reached, a time will come inevitably when you must -the scale of the Palestinian genocide will surpass ‘the Holocaust’. I think that point already past.
And don’t say ‘but look there are so many of them now, how can that be genocide?’, it is revolting and it works for both cases under consideration.
Cryptonym, i want to add to what you said. And say that when Einstein made this remark more than 60yrs ago, ““It would be my greatest sadness to see Zionists (Jews) do to Palestinian Arabs much of what Nazis did to Jews.”; how could he know that this would be the outcome and as prolonged as you have outlined, with no end in sight.
All one can say to the questioner is that his stupidity is truly infinite.
OK. I guess I can figure it out from here, Crypto. Thanks.
The above shouldn’t be taken as personal criticism, but earnest rhetoric Habbabkuk, you’ve made some good and commendable points and clarifications and conceded others surprisingly, but are a bit of a bully, though not the parroting automaton many first thought. We’ll keep you on a trial basis.
You did start debate on this subject by picking on David, who posted the link to the compelling Michael Parenti article, which I too found interesting and ‘refreshingly honest’.
@Villager: bqqmf to you mate 😉
@Villager (again):
Thank you for your comments above, but I do not think it’s a waste of time, not even (as I wearily expected) it does not even elicit a reply. Very often, someone will ask a question – or even for advice! – not wanting to hear any answer, but to make the points placed within in the question heard.
By the way, mentioning a username (like yours above, for instance) does not increase the post-tally. Only an actual post will increase the count – one could name another a thousand times in a single post, but the tally will reflect only a single increment for the poster that made it.
Sorry I didn’t and didn’t want to elaborate on that any more Ben F. I don’t think Craig Murray or Jon would appreciate the blog turning into Gardener’s Question Time. Courgettes are amazingly easy to grow too, the seedlings just seem to grow before your very eyes and the prickly stems and leaves make them unappealing to rabbit predators. Pick them when the fruits are still small, you’ll have so many you won’t know what to do with them.
@Cryptonym: Understand your concerns, but a couple of OT subjects could be aired, and the blog yet survive the sidetracking. For instance, much was discussed on music, tea and stringed instruments back in the day… or maybe I’m just thinking of a Suhayl novel again.
You didn’t continue our correspondence on the EU. I’d pointed out that it was not myself who’d mentioned the Blackpool sea quality – you were chatting with your good friend Habbabkuk at the time, and he made that point, not me. Indeed, he did expressly say this was just a very small example of a benefit the EU had brought about. By the time you accused – ridiculed me (your words) – over the point, it had mysteriously become my argument concerning the “pinnacle” of EU achievement.
Just wondered if you’d like to revisit your response, but only if you’re interested in accuracy and fair play, of course.
@Glenn_uk: I’d rather not wade through the thread again, there’s things there I’d never noticed first time round and things I can’t find, I dislike the interrogative style also. You might have missed my original reply to you, which covered a variety of topics, the EU, ‘the will of the British people’ direct democracy, capital punishment and more, Blackpool came later:
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/01/uzbek-cotton-slavery-campaign/comment-page-3/#comment-390250
or indeed correspondence with Nevermind:
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/01/uzbek-cotton-slavery-campaign/comment-page-3/#comment-390286
I replied to you as your comment deserved responses and could take things in a constructive direction, when it had been mired in bickering and I was valiantly trying to ignore the distracting noise and wrest things back from the abyss it fell into.
I’ve found the original comment now:
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/01/uzbek-cotton-slavery-campaign/comment-page-3/#comment-390272
Yes it was addressed to hababbuk, going by the other points made, who “admired” your Little Englander post. I have later dealt with the EU in greater detail; here and now I have no wish to re-visit it. It has been a confusing and bumpy ride with some misattribution.
I usually try to leave off commenting on the first page of comments which is where most people land, unless I have something pertinent to the specific topic to say.
@ Villager 12.54am
“An article co-authored by Arbed …”
No, no, no – sorry, perhaps I didn’t make it clear enough in my earlier post, but I had no hand in putting that article together – although it is a very thorough investigation and I recommend it highly. There are a couple of sections of it which they have lifted straight from comments of mine in the Guardian and elsewhere, that’s all. And I contacted them following their first version to give them a couple of extra facts for the updated version you’ve posted here.
Thanks for posting the article in Craig’s blog, Villager. This information about the true source of many of the smears against Assange does need a wider UK audience. I just don’t want Craig’s readers thinking credit is due where it’s not. 🙂
@ Villager (01h27) – I’ll deal with your Einstein quotation in due course and for the moment just thank you for your kind words of abuse.
@ Villager (00h22) – “Gosh, what did we eat for dinner last night”
I’ve no problem owning up if I get something wrong. It would be nice to think
that some of the other posters would do the same (eg, the chappie who got his
statistics wrong by a factor of 10).
With the growing number of people now involved with the Fairtrade organisation.
One would hope through advent of the world governing the likes of the Uzbec cotton growers could see a marked improvement in their living and working conditions and although not signing up to our western ways culturaly see the benefits that our technology gives.
@ Cryptonym (03h27) who was addressing Glenn_uk :
“Yes, it was addressed to Habbabkuk…who “admired” your Little Englander post;”
The wording of the above could give the wrong impression to someone who didn’t go back to the original exchanges.
It could give the impression that Glenn sent a post which was Little Englander in tone and that I admired that post (hence, I am also a Little Englander).
Wrong!
The post from Glenn_uk used the expresssion Little Englander as a criticism of certain (negative)attitudes vis-à-vis the EU. I agreed with Glenn’s criticisms.
Israel boycotts UN rights council in unprecedented move.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-21249431
@ Glenn_uk (01h57) addressing Villager :
“Very often, someone will ask a question…not wanting to hear any answer, but to make the points palced within in the question heard.”
If this means what I think it does, then I think it’s quite correct.
Certainly as far as I’m concerned. When I ask questions (and this is probably my ‘majority mode’) it is for two reasons :
– I am intrigued and want to know more, or
– I am less than convinced and wish to plant the seeds of doubt in the mind of
the casual reader (something I consider entirely legitimate, by the way,
although I get the impression some do not). If posing the question gets the
casual reader thinking through the matter further, or more carefully, then
I would consider the my objective achieved. Of course, I would also hope the
a failure to answer the question would also get the casual reader thinking…
–
“I’ve no problem owning up if I get something wrong. It would be nice to think
that some of the other posters would do the same (eg, the chappie who got his
statistics wrong by a factor of 10).”
I didn’t ask you to apologise Habbabkuk like I didn’t ask you to apologise for any of the other things you incorrectly ascribed to me.
I will agree with you though that when someone does apologise Villager jumping in and taking the piss is hardly conducive to harmonious debate.
There is lamentably little solidarity between Arabs when it comes to the Israel/Palestinian conflict.
I say this to introduce a little-remembered fact.
The Palestinians could have had their own state back in 1948/49 – albeit a state smaller than that originally envisaged thanks to the Israeli land grab – had not Jordan swiftly nipped in and taken over de facto (but not de jure) the West Bank teritories, thus leaving the Palestinians with virtually nothing. Jordan held onto them until they were kicked out by the Israelis in 1967.
So one could consider that the Palestinians were robbed not only by the Israelis but also by their fellow Arabs the Jordanians.
Which might be another way of saying that the Palestinians get it in the neck from everyone.
@ Fred : oh, I don’t mind Villager, he’s really quite harmless.
The estimable Paul Flynn is being given airtime thankfully to say his piece on Mali. He was just interviewed on BBC TV!
His most recent tweets
Paul Flynn @Paulflynnmp
Looking forward to debate the Mali slide into a new war with possible deadly consequences. Radio 5 Live and BBC Wales. Mali=new Helmand.
Paul Flynn
We are a fortunate generation of MPs. A large live audience listens to our words un-edited and instantly comments on them. Thanks for tweets
Paul Flynn
UK sent soldiers to Helmand hoping not a shot would be fired. That was 2006-only 2 UK soldiers killed. Now it’s 440. Mali -a new Helmand?
I’m delighted that peace appears to have broken out on this blog. Let’s all treat eachother well and see if we can manage a whole day without silly bickering. Arbed, thanks for all those links. Habbabkuk, thanks for helping to calm things down.
Shit. Googling about trying to decypher Glenn_uk’s “bqqmf”, I thought for a moment that I’d found Werritty via a blog that seems to have been sadly abandoned after less than a week:
http://bqqmf.wordpress.com/2008/04/13/where-on-earth-is-waldo/
And I’m no good at crosswords and I can’t figure out what ZOOKD means either. Ben Franklin, 11:00 pm: “I kill plants” – So are you now the “spud gun preacher”?
Glenn_uk, yes, consensus ad idem.
I. tell you what the answer is Mary.
Touched on earlier. We take up gardening instead of arms.
Forced labour on the planet garden.
Now tha neo-fascist gardening legume may just be viable.
sorry Mary breaks my heart too.
Clark, thank you for your contributions and yes the morning feels more peaceful.
ZOOKD was a reference to Glenn’s APPLE computer which compiled the league tables. As with HAL in 2001: A Space Odyssey, it comprises a one-letter-shift, in HAL’s case from IBM.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_9000#Origin_of_name
So now you will know Glenn’s acknowledgement on bqqmf… ( again a one-letter-shift the other way round from zookd)
I thought of the brave Ft Lt Malcolm Kendall-Smith when I read this.
Anti-Torture Psychologists Respond to Attack from APA Division Chief
http://my.firedoglake.com/valtin/2012/11/07/anti-torture-psychologists-respond-to-attack-from-apa-division-chief/
He refused to go to Iraq. He knew what duties he would be expected to perform, amongst which was to participate in the imprisonment and torture of prisoners. For that, he was court martialled, fined and imprisoned.
There has been a deal of editing of the Wikipedia page. The Nuremberg Principles are no longer mentioned for instance nor the support of many people, including financial.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_Kendall-Smith
Dave Lawton Thanks for the YT. What a creative mind Heathcote Williams has.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpTEld9AVpc
When I was a little girl, the moon held great fascination for me. My birthday falls in August and there a big full silvery harvest moon always seemed to appear on the date. I would stand at my bedroom window and stare up at its light and wonder about my future and what life would hold for me.
The song in The Mikado The Sun Whose Rays…., sometimes called The Moon and I, has always chimed with me, as the expression goes. The old recordings are so cracked amd distorted, they are unbearable to listen to. This unusual version gives you the tune and lyrics if they are not familiar. http://vimeo.com/4436817
Another great brain, Brian Cox, the physicist, is 45. Why does it look as if he is only 25? His series The Wonders of Life started on Sunday.
Another enjoyable experience is listening to this week’s Book of the Week –
Return of a King: The Battle for Afghanistan
By William Dalrymple.
Analysis of the first Afghan war, 1839-1842, told through the lives of characters on all sides and using contemporary Afghan accounts of the conflict. Read by Tim Pigott-Smith
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01qfrj5
Wednesday 30 January 2013
Zero Dark Thirty could breed ‘new generation of torture’
As the controversial new war film opens in Britain, a former Guantanamo guard tells Channel 4 News that he fears Zero Dark Thirty will encourage future young soldiers to “throw the rulebook out”.
Brandon Neely, who served as one of the first guards in Guantanamo in 2002, says that the film’s graphic depiction of torture methods risks legitimising such practises in the eyes of future soldiers.
Speaking to Channel 4 News from his home in Huntsville, Texas, he said: “There are enough people here already support torture. I’m afraid this film is going to make people feel even more OK with it and think ‘if this benefits us, let’s just throw the rulebook out of the window’.”
He is the latest to pour scorn on Kathryn Bigelow’s (pictured, below) critically-acclaimed film that opened in Britain over the weekend. The three-hour epic, which depicts America’s decade-long hunt for Osama bin Laden, is nominated for three Baftas but is at the centre of a growing dispute over how the filmmakers have chosen to depict the scenes of torture.
Mr Neely believes the controversy is symptomatic of a wider public apathy towards foreign policy as the US grapples with its own internal issues not least its economy. “People are only talking about torture now because of this film. That’s it. If the film wasn’t made, no one here would actually care. It is like our drones policy. Nobody talks about it,” he says.
Torture techniques: the issue
Sleep deprivation, “waterboarding” and blasting loud music at prisoners under duress were among a catalogue of “enhanced interrogation techniques” allegedly used by some Western guards and intelligence officers, particularly during the early years of the Bush administration.
Incidents such as Abu Ghraib and abuse of Baha Mousa, an Iraqi prisoner that died while imprisoned under British custody in September 2003 is where Mark Boale, the writer-producer of Zero Dark Thirty, has notably drawn many of his references.
But it is the film’s central implication that it was torture-induced intelligence that paved the way the eventual discovery of Osama bin Laden which has sparked fury in the US. That version of events is vehemently refuted on Capitol Hill and has even prompted the CIA to make a rare public statement saying it is a “wrong impression”.
Zero dark fury: when art and life cross
Dianne Feinstein and Carl Levin are among a growing number of angry senators have written to Sony Pictures objecting to that version of events and sparking the possibility of a legal wrangle.
Last week a congressional investigation began into the extent of information that might have been shared between CIA officials and filmmakers. Meanwhile Senator John McCain, himself a torture victim during the Vietnam War, says the film made him “sick”.
For now the filmmakers are standing firm. Ms Bigelow insists that “depicting” torture is not “endorsing it”. “If it was, no artists would be able to paint inhumane practices, no author could write about them and no filmmaker could delve into the thorny subjects of our time,” she said last week, adding that torture was “part of the story we could not ignore”.
A culture of secrecy or climate of apathy?
Neely was one of the first guards deployed in Guantanamo. He later served in Iraq before leaving the army to speak out against the treatment of prisoners he witnessed during his time as a prison guard.
Despite his protestations with the film’s potential affects on young people, he draws clear parallels between Zero Dark Thirty and his own experiences. “When I was there, the interrogations had just started. All our manuals were related to prisoner of war camps: we were told that this was a detention facility and we would be writing the rules of it as we went along. We had no policies at all.”
“The film shows detainees shackled up in a crucifix position. That happened in the early days. They would chain them up on the fence like that if they refused to take their medication and pretty much beat them in the way they did [in the film].
“The music torture, the short shackling, the excessive cold and heat with detainees as well as being slapped – a lot of my fellow guards have witnessed those things.”
Mr Neely believes that the emotional burdens of those who partook and implement torture on the orders of others were stories that would “probably never be told”.
http://www.channel4.com/news/zero-dark-thirty-could-breed-new-generation-of-torture
Clark Cheers, Can you do a D E E P search for Werrity please.
UN hypocrisy
South Korea has launched a rocket to put a satellite in space.
North Korea launched a rocket to put a satellite into space on 12th December 2012. That sparked outrage from the West.
The UN said the North Korean launch constituted a banned test of missile technology and voted to extend sanctions against Pyongyang.
No sanctions for South Korea of course.
KingofWelshNoir
29 Jan, 2013 – 9:08 pm
Ah! Habbabkuk are you a woman?
Or perhaps a transvestite (not that there is anything wrong with that of course)