Criminal accusations of corruption have been made against Craig Murray:
”
he lobbied so-called businessmen including those from Pakistan willing to get cotton and other state contracts, those people had contacts with different Uzbek clan representatives including Bekzod Akhmedov. Akhmedov was seen many times in Craig Murray and his pseudo businessmen’s company in dens of iniquity of the capital, Bekzod Akhmedov’s favorite venues.
”
The allegations must be taken extremely seriously because they come from an Ambassador to the United Nations in Geneva. The lady in question is of course Gulnara Karimova, daughter of the President of Uzbekistan. As is her usual method, she gave an interview to a glossy magazine journalist in Switzerland not given to probing questioning. Even this publication baulked at publishing these extraordinary statements, so she gave the full works on her blog:
For example yesterday in Geneva, on the first day of spring, we had another “support team” visiting us, those who are always ready to work off their payments while not having anything else to do, any other interests, hobbies or a properly paid job. A group of a few people including a cameraman, a lady of Uzbek origin Mutabar Tadjibaeva, who introduces herself as a president of the «Club des Coeurs Ardents» and guess who else? Exactly! Craig Murray – ex-ambassador to Uzbekistan, who had been scandalously fired from the British Foreign Office. He lived in Tashkent for a long time and had a relationship and even got married to a strip-bar dancer, he lobbied so-called businessmen including those from Pakistan willing to get cotton and other state contracts, those people had contacts with different Uzbek clan representatives including Bekzod Akhmedov. Akhmedov was seen many times in Craig Murray and his pseudo businessmen’s company in dens of iniquity of the capital, Bekzod Akhmedov’s favorite venues. It seems like the group of people that visited us in Geneva wanted to congratulate us with spring and express their grievance by screaming and as they said they wanted me or my sister Lola to come out. They attempted to sneak inside and walk around the house recording it all on video and we had nothing to do, but call the police and make our own video of this March invasion of “human right defenders” as they call themselves.
It is obvious, that those people mentioned above, a group of bloggers and professional PR firm such as R&R were not catalyzed accidentally. The core of the artificially initiated scandal is lost, constant threats, that someone will say something, someone like Bekzod Akhmeodv who is wanted by Interpol due to his relation to the investigation of MTS activities in Uzbekistan, who from the beginning was under the MTS-Russia protection and requested on January, 9 2013 refugee status with his big family. Also threats came for last three months from lawyers who were stating that they will have newspapers like Financial Times publish all they have, all that Bekzod Akhmedov could compose over almost a year which was accepted with pleasure by MTS lobbyists. Where else could you see such involvement at official level and could this be possible without high-reaching goals, even if it is done in such a straight way?
I might as well state for the record that to my knowledge I have never met or had any contact with Mr Bekzod Akhmedov, I have certainly never been in his social company, let alone on a “den of inquity” (though that does sound fun). I have never met any Pakistani businessmen in or to discuss Uzbekistan and I have never sought any role for myself in trading Uzbek cotton.
I certainly did visit Gulnara’s US $25 million mansion in Geneva, because I wanted to see where the proceeds of forced child labour in the Uzbek cotton fields went. I intend to do so again. I hope lots of people will – its at No. 7, Rue Prevote, Cologny, Geneva.
Gulnara’s peculiar attack on me for the “crime” of looking at her house appears a rather desperate reaction to increasing knowledge of her activities. The Chief Executive of Telesonera, Sweden’s largest telecommunications firm, had to resign recently over corrupt payments to Gulnara. In a decision reminiscent of Blair’s shutdown of the BAE Saudi bribes prosecution, Swedish authorities decided there was no public interest in prosecuting. Gulnara’s Swiss registered holding company Zeromax has been declared bankrupt, owing half a billion dollars to the state in taxes, and its assets confiscated then reprivatised to … Gulnara. Russian Telecoms giant MTS has been kicked out of Uzbekistan, substantially reducing available services there.
All of the above were examples of Gulnara kicking out fellow oligarchs from business interests which she held in partnership with others, to take the lot for herself. That has left a lot of despoiled oligarchs rather rueful. This centralisation of cash prior to a succession battle is a very high risk strategy. It is telling that Gulnara refers to my contact with Uzbek “clans”. In the Uzbek context, this does not mean tribe, but rather something more akin to regionally based mafia groupings, with whom the common people of the region have no identity. Gulnara is in the middle of a major rupture with Gafur Rakhimov, the largest mafia boss whose alliance with Karimov had been central to the regime’s stability.
I do not imagine Gulnara really believes I am connected to any of these rival mafia interests, though it is possible she is really that crazy. But plainly she is very rattled, or she would not be drawing all this attention to her business interests.
Two small points from the above. Firstly, one passage seems to reveal that the “interviewer” from Bilan was a chum of hers.
and guess who else? Exactly! Craig Murray – ex-ambassador to Uzbekistan,
I don’t think an ordinary Swiss journalist would have any idea who I was, let alone know I had called at the house.
This is one of my all time favourite tough journalist questions:
You are leading the list of most popular personalities from Central Asia in 2012 on search engines such as Google and Yandex. You are almost every day active on Twitter where you post many of your photos. How is this all related?
Final point – the first sentence of this post refers to me in the third person not because I have gone delusional, but so it works well as a retweet.
I have every hope the Karimov regime will fall in spring 2015.
Mary – For Truth And Justice
14 Mar, 2013 – 8:16 am
“I would not bother your head. I think you are assuming I support the Catholic church. I belong to no church just as I belong to no political party or grouping.
It is all theatricals after all to keep the people slumbering. Why else have the corporate media had large teams of reporters and and a countless number of Catholic commentators watching to see what colour smoke comes out of a chimney and then who appears from behind a window?”
Yes Mary, agreed and well said. All summarised in one word: CHICANERY.
Like you, i am free of every church/organised religion or grouping.
Krishnamurti telling a joke…
Looking around the table, he prefaced it by asking, “Are there any Christians here? I don’t mean to blashpheme or offend anyone.” Since nobody declared themselves to be religiously affiliated, he continued, “The Lord and St. Peter are in heaven observing the action down on the earth on a television monitor. They are amazed by what they see: people are forever rushing about, ceaselessly digging and constructing, building large cities, everywhere busy, busy, busy, from early morning throughout the night. The Lord turns to St. Peter and asks incredously, ‘ What are they all doing, busy from morning till night, never resting, forever striving, battling, competing? What’s the point of it?’ St Peter replies, ‘Well Lord, these people are your followers, they believe in you and obey you. And you told them to eat their bread in the sweat of their brows.’ And the Lord says to St. Peter, ‘But I was only kidding.’”
We started to laugh, but Krishnamurti gestured us to calm down, calling out, “No, don’t laugh yet. There’s more to come. St. Peter switches channels and they see a magnificent banquet hall in the Vatican with huge tables filled with expensive delicacies. There are caviar and truffles and the finest wines and so on. Hundreds of big men in purple robes are seated around the tables, feasting and laughing and drinking cognac and smoking cigars. They are the cardinals and bishops, having a feast. ‘But what about these people, ‘the Lord asks St. Peter, ‘they don’t seem to be eating their bread in the sweat of their brows. If you ask me, they seem to be having a jolly good time.’ St. Peter says, ‘Well Lord, these are the ones who knew you were only kidding.’”
http://www.katinkahesselink.net/kr/jokes.html
The Jemand above links to my comment on nit picking which was a PS defending Craig, which I added to my post about the anniversary of the Al Amiriyah massacre. Presumably both Jemands are one and the same?
Jemand – Keep Speech Free
22 Feb, 2013 – 11:45 am
“The transcript is a precis and contains a few mistakes – notably legal for illegal more than once, But mostly because I have noted before my spoken English does not transcribe well, trlying heavily on onflexion.”
Your type-written English is also bloody awful. Craig, can’t you type your posts up in a wordprocessor or email client with spell checker?
V good Villager.
Now over and out, literally.
Cue trolls.
May 14 Mar, 8:20am
“What a repellent website Jemand links to.”
. . . .
Repellant only to those who are not interested in informing themselves of the truth (as in “truth and justice”).
I don’t agree with all the wording of that website, but it does convey an analysis that I do concur with.
I am already known here as anti-Islam (but not anti-Muslim) in the same way that the teachings of Islam are anti-Atheism. You should note that unlike the teachings of Islam, which preach a hostile sentiment towards people like me, I do not preach a hostile sentiment towards Muslim people. You should not conflate the person with the abstract concept that they subscribe to.
But Mary, you and your arrogant friends will never get it. Your type wonk on about intolerance and then, perpexingly, apologise for one of the most intolerant of belief systems that has ever existed. You pull out all sorts of tricks to rationalise how a belief system has no bearing on the behaviour of a person. In your logic, the software has nothing to do with the program.
Although there is almost zero chance of you doing so, I would recommend you engaging more in debate and analysis rather than posting noisy RSS news feeds that causes forum sliding.
. . . .
Mary – “The Jemand above links to my comment on nit picking which was a PS defending Craig, which I added to my post ..”
Craig has people who want him dead, maybe even plotting on it right now, and here you are defending him against one of his supporters regarding a humourous observation of his typo-infested post. Do you think you are doing him any favours?
I take it, then, you don’t intend to apologise for your curt, school-ma’amish admonition of my comment on the other thread. Maybe it was my fault for not posting a link to some canned-laughter within the body of my comment to make it glaringly obvious to all dimwits that I was, indeed, giving Craig a ribbing. Well pardon me all over the place!
The ADL support the new pope.
http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/adl-francis-vatican-pope/2013/03/13/id/494587?s=al&promo_code=12CA2-1
I am sorry Jemand that I did not see that comment about Craig’s typing as humorous at the time and I never returned to that thread to see your further unfriendly comments –
Jemand – Keep Speech Free
22 Feb, 2013 – 7:44 pm
Mary wrote – “Could we please have less of the nit picking here – spelling, typos etc !!”
Less than one means zero. And zero “nit picking” means more lice. I stand by my comment – if it’s worth writing, it’s worth writing properly. Nobody would ever stand for “To bee or nop too bo, tht is the qstion”. Sheesh!
~~~~
Jemand – Keep Speech Free
23 Feb, 2013 – 5:35 am
What a bunch of uptight fucking wowsers you’ve become. A sense of humour is free, go take one off the shelf and nurture it. For the record, my original post was intended to be a jocular observation that Craig’s posts are replete with spelling errors made glaringly obvious by his admission that his “spoken English does not transcribe well”. It was my first, and now last, remark about his spelling. Not to be taken seriously by anyone at all, esp. Craig. And not expecting any reply either – not even a chuckle.
But what a curious response I’ve enjoyed on this thread. A group of people who consistently post off topic, criss-crossing multiple conversations, discussing the most serious issues of the day mixed with banal observations about life and THEN daring to attack me for the unforgivable offence of having a light-hearted dig at Craig’s spelling. You could have graciously let it slip by, but no.
As for you my old friend, Villager, you have become the archetype thug around here with your high-count sniping at other COMMENTATORS in a shameless attempt to ingratiate yourself with this blog’s own establishment. You never did let that one go, did you? I do recall that we effected a kind of truce where I wouldn’t pick up on your own questionable commentary (as in, a series of comments), in particular those supporting the indefatigable Goran Rudling. You’ve done quite a turnaround since then, haven’t you? It’s also interesting to note that you are the most cowardly of commentators, sensing a quorum first before mustering the courage to fire off a salvo. At long last, you must now feel like you belong.
“Once again, you show your utter lack of class writing stupid comments while lying on the ‘settee’ in your ‘lounge’ eating your ‘sweet’ with your ‘dentures’ on shouting at your ‘missus’ because she forgot to give you a ‘serviette’.”
That might have been funny if it wasn’t so churlish. But then, you are a churl, with an obsession about “class”. Imagining me as some kind of Alf Garnett is probably intended to make you feel better about yourself than make me feel worse. I feel fine. Thanks to your ill-advised latest missive, the truce is now off as are the gloves. I’m going to be more active here now than ever before, you’ll be delighted to know. I look forward to your reply.
Fred said – “Ooooh look, a spelling flame. Get a life.”
How ironic.
~~~
PS I am not arrogant.
@ Jemand :
There’s not much reason to thank Mary for anything she posts, but I must say that this time I’m thankful to her for reminding us of your post of 05h35 on 22 February.
I somehow missed it the first time, but now I’ve seen it let me just say I think it is excellent. Hole in one, as we golfers say!
Certainly a repellent extract, because it is so very obviously calculated to invoke fear and aggression in its target audience. Presumably the rest of the website goes on to explain in details the mass murder/torture/poisoning and displacement of the Afghans and Iraqis under what I presume it would describe as ‘Christian’ invasions? Or the maddening plight of the Palestinian people? Or the ‘Christian’ drone attacks on Pakistanis, or the ‘Christian’ bombing of Mali?
No, because that would demonstrate an ignorance of geo-politics and governments which would almost equal the stupidity of statements like ‘millions of Muslim men are dedicated to killing Americans’
But then a little ignorance goes a long way, so presumably Jemand in his intellectual search has read scholars such as Ibn Hajr Al-Asqalani, and poets such as Rumi to arrive at his ‘conclusions’ about Islam? No? Not even the wiki page?
wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_in_Islamic_philosophy
I can heartily recommend doing so, Jemand, if you’d like to improve your day. Here is the great Hamza el Din to start you off. Let’s hope the new pope has some of this available to his soul:
The world shines about me,
luminous as the moon, smiling like a rose,
and a sweet benediction
flows through everything existing.
How beautiful life is.
I marvel at people who are not in love with life.
You, my girl, are beautiful,
and your beauty,
like the beautiful thought of peace,
belongs to the eternity.
Detest war and destruction.
When you go to the riverbank,
and the sun sets in the evening,
the waters of the river will be rippling softly,
and from a distance, in the twilight, you will see white sails.
A song of the boatman will come from there.
‘Today no suffering, no suffering.’
The world shines about me,
luminous as the moon,
smiling like a rose.
Mary informs us that
“The ADL support the new pope.”.
So? Problem? Conclusions to draw?
*********
La vita è bella, life is good! (Habbabkuk for Tolerance, Balance and Dignity)
@RD, Yes the MSM will state such obvious barbarity is shocking, but will carefully always follow the Government’s “a few bad apples” mantra; this is their self-imposed gatekeeping role, never to cross the red line and expose that such barbarity, which was & still is systemic & so widespread in the armed services, that it’s unofficially “official policy”, sanctioned from the very top. Even all the cases of abuses going through the courts now, can only represent a minuscule droplet in the ocean of abuses inflicted on Iraqis by “our brave boys”, egged on & covered-up by our Government., but you won’t read that anywhere in the MSM.
Not that two wrongs make a right, but I don’t know too much about the situation in Iran, but I do recall many critical videos being made there some time back relating to election violence.
My, you do have a very short memory ! you don’t remember going on & on, with a blatant whataboutery iro an irrelevance about “Gulags ?; all in your desperation, over many pages to avoid giving a direct answer to whether if you were in JA’s shoes, you would happily walk out of the Embassy and fly to Sweden, without any assurances re onward rendition/extradition to a lifetime of isolation in US hell-hole prison ?”
(http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/01/amelia-hill-is-a-dirty-liar/?showmore=1#comments)
Care to answer this now, a simple yes or no will do
@Rd Forgot to add , that this only came to light thanks to a brave whistleblower, who was sicken to see such brutality inflicted on kids, which is really an apt metaphoric image of US & UK lead violence on weak & virtually defenseless smaller nations: this whistleblower took the immensely courageous & noble cause of conscience that Bradley Manning was later to take, both are real heroes I hope you will agree.
Macky
If you would bother to look you will see that I had already answered you question (or a very similar one) in response to Clark ealrier in the same thread – the basic answer is yes if I was innocent of the crime of which Assange was accused and as convinced of the weakness of the prosecution evidence as his supporters are then I would want to clear my name, and as I have said subsequently on another thread I actaully think that such an approach would reduce the risk of being extradited to the US not increase it. Given that the risk of extradition from the UK or the US is no different I don’t think going to Sweden makes a difference. On the otehr hand were I guilty I moght well behave differently…….
I notice you still haven’t backed down from your juvenile and ahistorical comparison of the US Prison syetem to the Soviet GULAG.
The video also came to light because the News of the World decided to publicise it (the clue is written all over the video) – but I have no problem whatsover with it being released. As i have said human rights are universal. I presume you have similar thoughts when the Ianian regime talks about the annihilation of the BBC through its PressTV mouthpiece – which of course was the original point before you went on your own extended tour of Whatabout?
ATTACK OF THE KILLER SHREWS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VPcMTg4Lq4
WARNING: Some or all the following comment may or may not contain humourous content. Reader caution is advised. Contains no peanuts or added sugar.
Mary, thank you for your ungracious, backhanded apology and full repost of my comment on the other thread when a link might have sufficed. But you did forget to post your friend Villager’s somewhat hate-filled comment that puts my post in context. Double standards or hypocrisy? Is there any difference?
Technicolour – oh hello, you. For clarification, I should have written “webpage” instead of “website” in my comment above. I’m not aware of the other content on the website and I don’t think I should have to be. Although, I do believe Stephen Sizer made the same mistake of linking to a webpage thereby unwittingly incriminating himself as an advocate of everything on that website including links to other sites. I suggest you read Craig’s post about ‘Defending Stephen Sizer’ and the comments that follow his post.
It’s a beautiful poem you recite, Technicolour. Did you extract it from the Quran? No. You have made the typical mistake of conflating the person with the abstract belief system that he subscribes to. I would argue that the poem came from the man, inspired by his life experiences and innate temperament, not his belief in Islam. If he were a Christian or atheist, it might read exactly the same.
I’d like to suggest you find your own agreeable version of an online English translation of the holy Quran and read it to your own satisfaction.
I make the following statement about Islam and look forward to your reply after you have informed yourself of the teachings of the Quran –
Islam is defined by the teachings of the Quran amongst other scriptures. The Quran defines what a person must do to be considered a Muslim. Those Muslims who are most committed to practicing the teachings of the Quran are the most pious and can be described as genuine and faithful Muslims. The Quran denigrates Jews, Christians and atheists. The Quran teaches Muslims to discriminate against Jews, Christians and atheists. The Quran is filled with speech that teaches Muslims to hate atheists. The Quran instructs Muslims to be hostile to and kill atheists under circumstances that would be crimes if committed in modern Western jurisdictions.
Technicolour, I am an atheist. I ask you – should I be indifferent, supportive or intolerant of Islam (not to be confused with Muslims) in view of my statement above?
. . . .
A man who linked to an anti-semitic website –
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/01/defend-stephen-sizer/
An accomplished man –
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamza_El_Din
Jemand: the fact that you say, about the example Mary provided:
“Repellant only to those who are not interested in informing themselves of the truth (as in “truth and justice”).
I don’t agree with all the wording of that website, but it does convey an analysis that I do concur with.”
is surprising, given that the extract clearly does more than convey the analysis that Muslims per se are a barbarous group of murderers intent on killing Americans: it clearly states it. Did Stephen Sizer similarly go that far in defence of his accidental link? I don’t know.but happy to accept that you don’t agree with it, if I’m getting it wrong in some way.
You don’t say where your desciption of Islam comes from; here is a direct Quran translation (and explanation):
“The Quran clearly states that Jews and Christians, and others, will be accepted by God as long as they believe in his existence, his judgment, and perform good deeds (e.g., assisting the poor and orphaned).
2:62 Those who believe (in the Qur’an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.”
Not, possibly, helpful for an atheist, but this may be:
“The Quran has unequivocally stated that ONLY God can pass judgment on humans:
22:17 Those who believe (in the Qur’an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians (can mean certain ancient religion or people with no specific religion), Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- God will judge between them on the Day of Judgment: for God (alone) is witness of all things.
As finite humans we do not possess the foreknowledge of God and thus we are in no position to pass judgment over others.”
What do you think? V glad you liked the poem: agree it could have come from any religion – or from a spiritually inclined atheist too. But it didn’t 🙂
Technicolour
Isn’t the problem with what you are saying is that it only based on the Qu’ran and on a particular interpretation of it. I suspect if you reduce and interpret any of the major world religions on a similar basis then you can come up with a core of decent human values. This is probably none to surprising if you subscribe to the view that writing and interpreation was undertaken by decent human beings, with or without some spiritual assistance. The problem, however, is regarding all the other interpretations and other writings which are deemed to have originated from the same source – and this is usually where you get the lack of trouble with apostates and non believers and additional rules to demonstrate who is and isn’t a non believer and as an exercise to extend and maintain the control of those in charge. This process is by no means unique to Islam – look up the Inquisition, the behaviour of some previous Popes, the denial by the Roman Catholic Church that the earth rotated around the sun rather than vice versa for many hundreds of year. Perhaps what Islam needs is it equivalent of the reformation and dissent which occurred within Christianity – and which I suspect has influenced many here though they may not be aware of it.
Technicolour, 14 Mar 3:12pm
“.. is surprising, given that the extract clearly does more than convey the analysis that Muslims per se are a barbarous group of murderers intent on killing Americans: it clearly states it. Did Stephen Sizer similarly go that far in defence of his accidental link? I don’t know.but happy to accept that you don’t agree with it, if I’m getting it wrong in some way.”
I think you have mischaracterised the article. There is mention of “.. millions of Muslim men are dedicated to killing Americans?”, which is an irritating exaggeration that does the rest of the article no justice. Millions? The Prophet Mohammed should be so lucky to have such a large army of true believers. I think a ready supply of stupid males between the ages of 15 and 30 is more than enough to get the job done. You didn’t read (I guess) another comment of mine elsewhere in which I said it takes just one mad man, a hundred henchmen, a thousand thugs and a million gullible followers to take over a country of many millions of complacent peace-lovers. History is replete with examples of this model of conquest.
The gist of the article is that belief systems are like organisms where the most potent and adaptable organisms survive and propagate as we understand this phenomenon in the field of evolution. You can apply the theory to all manner of things. That is the analysis that I concur with, nothing else. I suppose I should have rewritten the whole thing myself.
Re Stephen Sizer – I am not making a perfect comparison, just a relevant one. Apples and oranges can be compared for they are both fruit, edible, have seeds, grow on trees – despite their respective differences.
You have quoted from the Quran. I resisted doing the same because we could quote until this blog fills up to be just a mirror of a Quran translation website. What you should read in the Quran, as an atheist, is the antipathy that it teaches to faithful followers to feel towards willful atheists (ie those who resist conversion, like me). The antipathy is not just for the idea of being a disbeliever, but for the person who harbours willful disbelief. Compare that to our hatred of disease but not of a person who has the disease. Islam teaches antipathy towards the man with the disease (atheism).
You should also be aware of the issue of abbrogation in Islam. It’s not something unique to Islam but relevant to understanding the apparent contradictions that lead to selective quotations of peace and violence. When put in chronological order, the verses of the Quran reads as an increasingly less tolerant and more violent set of edicts.
You didn’t answer the most important question I posed – how should I feel as an atheist towards a religion that hates me?
“You didn’t answer the most important question I posed – how should I feel as an atheist towards a religion that hates me?”
I think you will find most religions don’t have a lot of time for atheists – if you are agnostic however it becomes quite difficult to get rid of them!
RD: Well, I think, at a time when attempts to inflame anti-Muslim sentiment are happening across the West (not necessarily successfully) it is probably more helpful, when trying to define ‘Islam’, to go back to the original text – as Jemand had asked me to do, in fact.
The statement that Islam is definitely against Jews or Christians, for example, is plainly untrue. Some people who think they are Muslims may believe that it is true, which is why it is curious of people who dislike this version of Islam to continue to spread disinformation and encourage this belief.
And of course there are passionate debates over the progression of Islam, within Islam itself. For every argument which says that women should be veiled, for example, are ten counter arguments, again drawn from the Quran. Outside the Quran are countless thoughtful attempts to prove the religion’s innate tolerance:
http://www.al-islam.org/religious-tolerance-Islam/1.htm
You are of course quite right in citing the example of the Catholic church – even recent years in Ireland, never mind the Inquisition, are a case in point. I don’t think that Jesus ever said that unmarried mothers should be locked up and beaten, for example, and nor do I assume that it is a basic tenet of the Christian religion as a result.
Jemand
I sympathise with your anger at the Muslims, especially since you have come across far Eastern Islam. Then you react by swinging against Islam through a US commentory.
Far Eastern Islam has incorporated most of the culture you would normally see in Korean soap, violence, power, break-up of family by moghul manipulation. Do you know that wherever Islam becomes authoritarian, even in Saudi, the society rapidly disintegrates into drug-taking, alcoholism, and racism?
That’s why the enemies of Islam are constantly promoting authoritarian Islam.
I have a Malaysian/Chinese friend who converted to Islam and studied in Egypt. He automatically assumes that his knowledge makes him a guru for all other Muslims. His experience of life is limited to rebelling against his parents and talking student politics. I am nearly 60 years old and I refuse to be told how to run my life by him. He has been the most vindictive of all my Muslim friends for not comlying with his authoritarian demands.
This is Eastern culture, the culture of peers and gurus. Coming from Protestant stock who believe there is no intermediary between God and his servants, I reject this intermediary master concept totally and completely. If the scholar/ruler is at fault, e.g. by spying on fellow Muslims there is no listening and no obeying.
Why do you reject Islam instead of trying to analyse the selfish Me Me whims of a few nutters who have come under the spell of Zionist Muslim Brotherhood / Salafist schemes for deviating Islam. They are utterly deluded. See them for what they are, and Islam for what it is, the truth, the way of the prophets for our time.
“You didn’t answer the most important question I posed – how should I feel as an atheist towards a religion that hates me?”
I can’t – I don’t like the word ‘should’, for one thing.
But this is someone from that religion on atheism and rather brilliant too – no hate;
“Normally, when I meet an atheist, the first thing I like to do is to congratulate him and say, ” My special congratulations to you”, because most of the people who believe in God are doing blind belief – he is a Christian, because his father is a Christian; he is a Hindu, because his father is a Hindu; the majority of the people in the world are blindly following the religion of their fathers. An atheist, on the other hand, even though he may belong to a religious family, uses his intellect to deny the existence of God; what ever concept or qualities of God he may have learnt in his religion may not seem to be logical to him.”
http://www.islam101.com/tauheed/provingGodExists.htm
“A New Pope and “The Most Corrupt Vatican Since the Borgias”
Matthew Fox (former Catholic priest) discusses the Vatican’s work with the CIA and it’s alliance with far right political forces and Pope Francis’ opposition to liberation theology in Latin America.”
http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=9868#.UUHOU2dmNUM
I could write a story about a mouse and an elephant who become friends, go to the zoo, find a balloon and help a little boy who is lost and so on.
I could insert passages in the story that tell you that homosexuals are evil, that women are stupid, that people who don’t collect balloons should be tortured and murdered.
Now if you quoted all the nice things in my book and nothing that is hurtful and wrong, you’d be left with a story about how to make friends and influence people. But what about the rest of it?
A belief system (and associated culture) is like a computer program that plugs into the human mind and instructs him how to act. Look at all the weird behaviour that people engage in, on instruction from their religious leaders and scriptural texts. Is anything NOT possible when you have the right code to program a human? Americans were instructed to be openly hostile to communists, and they duly were. So were Indonesians in a more rabid form of anti-communism that left, by some counts, over a million dead in the mid 1960’s. I have no sympathy for communism nor communists generally, but I feel sorry for those idiots who were tortured and murdered for their political beliefs, including extended family members of my ex-wife.
Then you look at the reign of the Khmer Rouge, over a million dead again.
Africa is a hotbed of many different type of conflict. Take your pick – colonialism, communism, inter-tribal ethnic hostilities, resource theft, disease, and of course religion.
Technicolour, if it is convenient for you to do so, you might be inclined to make contact with the following organisation for your own research purposes.
Party of Liberation or Conquest?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hizb_ut-Tahrir#United_Kingdom
It’s worth noting that Hizb ut Tahrir’s position on violence could have been written by the US State Dept.
Ideas kill people –
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_killings_of_1965–1966
Other ideas also kill people –
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Rouge
Trouble in Africa –
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigeria#Strife_and_sectarian_violence
. . . .
Quick addendum –
Technicolour : You can quote as many nice people as you like, I mix with them often. But to me, Islam is like a gun – in the hands of a good person it is useful, safe. In the hands of a fool, it is a dangerous weapon. I support strict gun control in the US, do you?
Guano – thank you, but I am not angry with Muslims. I reject Islam as I reject all religions. Either one can rationalise his beliefs or he has faith. I have no faith in any concept of God.
Technicolour.
Re above. I am a qualified UK electrician and I remember a conversation with someone from a country which does not use the earth terminal. He said ‘ I know what the green yellow cable is for because I saw it in UK houses. You take the earth from the water pipes.’ That is in fact the absolute opposite of what the green yellow cable is, for which is to equalise the voltage of the electrical installation to the exposed metal parts.
Jemand seems to think that the purpose of the Qur’an is to threaten. The purpose is to connect the instinct of awe at the creation and the instinct of love towards fellow creatures to a set of rules which governs those instincts. If I deny these instincts in myself so that I believe that I am not fascinated by the world around me and I do not care about my fellow creatures, I’m not going to find much use for a set of rules for things about myself that I cannot find.
Inna ma tunthiru man itaba’a thikra/ you can only warn those who follow the reminder – the reminder being of having gratitude to the Creator and gratitude to the personal nurturing He has given us in spite of the social bad behaviour we have experienced in our life. The objective of those who treat us badly is only to weaken our faith in God by the logic that if God is in charge of everything, then this bad stuff is coming from God.
So why does God use people to cause us problems? He tells us in the Qur’an that ‘Mercy is written on His heart, so the only reason why we experience difficulty is so that by the time of the day of Judgement we know for certain who is our God.’
So instead of accumulating fortunes and children and power and wives, our attentions are turned to our relationship with the Creator and His creation. That focus will earn us paradise, while the wealth will turn to dust.
In other words the problems we experience are for exactly the opposite purpose that we assume they are for ( punishment) . We are being nudged towards our destiny of paradise ( by having to turn to help from God when nobody else will help us ) rather than being neglected to satisfy our animal desires in this life.
Guano
I don’t think the purpose of the Quran is to threaten, I think it is to instruct followers.
Our respective perspectives on Islam are incompatible. You look at it as an infallible product of God. I look at it as a political invention of man.
There is so much in the Quran that, if you are careful to omit contradictions from your extractions, you could say just about anything you want to.
Always good to read your posts, Guano.
@RD, Well your whole comment neatly illustrates the problem I have with people like you; it’s just not possible to have any meaningful, nevermind constructive, dialogue with people who are simply are too irrational for reasoned argumentation.
You would have us to believe that in the in light of being official declared an “enemy” by a cruelly vindictive & lawless Superpower, hell bent on making examples of whistleblowers in order to terrorise others from also leaking, and in light of trumped up & farcical accusations of sexual molestation, which even if were true, would not even be considered crimes in any country apart from Sweden, you would actually risk a life time in a US prison cell, probably in never-ending torturous extreme isolation, rather than seek to save yourself from such a fate ?!! Irrational in the extreme !
“Given that the risk of extradition from the UK or the US is no different” _ the fact that you would have us believe that you really think this despite many people spelling out many times to you why exactly this is not correct, is yet more a symptom of your bizarre irrationality.
“I notice you still haven’t backed down from your juvenile and ahistorical comparison of the US Prison syetem to the Soviet GULAG.”
This is where your irrationality merges with self-delusional fantasy; it was yourself that made this initial red herring comparison, by jumping on my quite commonly expressive description of the US prison system as “the American Gulag”, especially now as more people than ever are being locked up for political crimes, all in order to embark on long whataboutery avoidance of answering the Assange question, (put to you not just by me on that thread), and now with your answer, we know why you didn’t want to answer it !
“I presume you have similar thoughts when the Ianian regime talks about the annihilation of the BBC through its PressTV mouthpiece”
I know nothing about this; links please.
“before you went on your own extended tour of Whatabout?”
Chutzpah beyond belief !!
Jemand: it sounds like a sweet story, but not quite an analogy. To reflect the debates and issues in Islam, or, indeed, Christianity, there would have to be an addendum (cf the hadithas/Catholicism) in which a new character – a chipmunk? – argues for the imposition of anti-homosexual laws, for example. The original (elephant) would have already argued that no-one can judge another human being apart from God (see Quran quote, above and, of course, Jesus).
I’m really not worried by Hizb ut Tahir – at least, I would be worried if people kept insisting that they represented the ‘true face’ of Islam. A few nutters, as Guano says, don’t represent the majority (I think you said this too, earlier). And they are not even violent nutters – they have never, as far as I know, been violent here. So they are people with an idea; and you can only defeat ideas with better ideas. Or facts, I guess.
Religions as Res Diss and Guano pointed out, progress and change. Humans progress and change. Control of guns is one thing but I think control of people, and hatred and suspicion between people, do not allow for much progression. The one thing I think we all need to bear in mind is that historically Muslims and Jews and Christians have lived happily in the same communities in peace. These wars, this nonsense, have nothing to do with religion. Just like the first Crusades: this is a geo-political resource grab in the interests of a minority, and all of us suffer as a result.
Finally I don’t think Islam per se is any more dangerous than Christianity per se, of course. Or atheism – there have been many many unpleasant murderous atheists, What would be dangerous is to see all their representatives as nodes in one, unthinking programme – which is what you seem to be suggesting, although you simultaneously recognise the decency and open-mindedness of people who nevertheless share that background?
Interesting!
ps, yes, Guano, thanks for the post too.
Technicolour
‘The one thing I think we all need to bear in mind is that historically Muslims and Jews and Christians have lived happily in the same communities in peace. These wars, this nonsense, have nothing to do with religion. Just like the first Crusades: this is a geo-political resource grab in the interests of a minority, and all of us suffer as a result.’
Excellent. Considering that Europe and its economic influence will soon extend through Turkey to Kurdistan with motorways running directly between them, the Russian port/base in Syria would seem to be a vital resource for them. That’s why the outcome of all this will be their removal from Syria.
They will continue arming Assad until he eventually gets himself zapped by Obomber and the Russian base will be gone.
Sure they’ll take it out on another Muslim country closer to home like they did with Chechnya last time.
Resident Dissident, 1.40pm
Can I ask please whether your views on this have changed at all now we’ve heard that the Swedish government is introducing a new law meaning that foreign journalists reporting foreign war-disclosures (eg, Afghanistan) can be prosecuted in Sweden for “espionage”?
http://www.expressen.se/debatt/krigsjournalistik-maste-fa-vara-fri/ (use Google translate)
To understand the full implications of this for the onward extradition of Assange to the US if he ever gets to Sweden, you must understand that in order for Sweden to agree an extradition to a third country the particular offence in question – here, “espionage” – must also be punishable in Sweden with a minimum sentence of at least one year. This is clearly how Sweden intends to get round their previous legal bar on extradition for capital/military or political offences. The good citizens of the Swedish Flashback forum set out chapter and verse of how this new law fits in with Sweden’s current extradition arrangements:
https://www.flashback.org/t1275257p4339 (use Google translate)
So, can I repeat Macky’s question – and taking into account this new Swedish legislation – “if you were in JA’s shoes, would you happily walk out of the Embassy and fly to Sweden, without any assurances re onward rendition/extradition”?