Here am I spreaking at the Oxford Union, in entertaining mode.
You can see the other speeches in the debate. The Motion “This house still dreams the American Dream” was defeated.
The following week the motion “This house believes that Israel is a force for good in the Middle East” was also defeated. I hear Peter Tatchell was excellent.
I don not think the format of such debates is antiquated and irrelevant. It helps get students thinking, and you get a range of opinion denied an airing elsewhere. I can never get to say those things on the mainstream media.
Hey Angry, you’re back!
Eating whale meat, huh? You be careful, my friend, some of the ‘value’ lines contain sea horse 🙂
“Fred, nobody is disputing that what this under-age boy did was wrong. I am not condoning what he did but would like to ask you whether you made any discoveries of members of the opposite sex when you were young? Anyway you completely miss the point that Arbed made. It is a matter of law and changing the law to the point of stupidity.”
I had a normal youth in which I did not take compromising photos of young girls then threaten to make them public if they didn’t do as I said.
How would you feel if your daughter was being blackmailed over the internet by a pervert?
Fred. To answer your question I would feel devastated. Very angry. Vengeful. He is not a pleasant 17 year old. And has not been for years if my understanding of the Google translation is right. But the charge should be blackmail, not rape. There are enough changes in law militating against the general public, (especially if you are a Muslim). We do not need any more like “rape by proxy”.
Fred, 1.57pm
Just to be clear, I have no argument that the behaviour of this 17-year-old was wrong and should be punished. However, it’s not ‘rape’ as the term is understood the world over. Procurement or ‘grooming’ charges? Sexual coercion charges? Sexual molestation maybe or, as Villager suggests, perhaps it fits a charge of blackmail? Cyber-bullying perhaps (it sounds a lot like what some of the nastier internet trolls get up to)? But not rape. That’s all I’m saying.
How old were the girls, btw, anyone know? Given his young age, their ages would also be a crucial factor in deciding to what level and under which laws he should be punished.
@ a Node :
I would like to echo Guano’s question and also ask you to state who in your opinion are these mysterious individuals or bodies who run the world?
Amoung the more outlandish candidates frequently mentioned are the Illuminati and the Bilderberg group. David Icke, I believe, has identified a hetergenous collection of eminent personalities who may, or may not, be lizards from outer space. Clark is apparently more down to earth and points the finger at the “corporations”.
Who is/are your candidate(s)?
I didn’t find the 17 year olds actions terribly serious. Pubescent Kids together unsupervised, on webcams are quite often going to be naughty. So this one kid (15 to 17 years old) worries, harangues and manipulates 9 other kids he was naughty with on unsupervised cams – into doing what? meeting him and giving him more naughty cams. Big deal. Naughty kid > catch > tell off > scare > lessons learnt all round, no harm done. He didnt touch any of his quarry – so hes a naughty boy but he knows some respectable limits. Hes been convicted with blackmail now, and has 170,000 dollars damages to pay for TEENAGE KICKS.
I think its hysterical and bloody useless distraction from the real monsterous sex and abuse crime cases which are going on unpunished and uninvestigated.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/mar/03/this-week?commentpage=1
Here Glenn’s given the commenters carte blanche to use the comment section to talk about whatever you want, Glenn’s requested that his articles are less strictly moderated, so might be a rare oppurtunity to discuss certain topics on CiF that usually get modded.
The Queen has been admitted to KE VII hospital with gastroenteritis.
And let us all wish her a speedy recovery.
“Just to be clear, I have no argument that the behaviour of this 17-year-old was wrong and should be punished. However, it’s not ‘rape’ as the term is understood the world over.”
That’s just the point, rape isn’t the same the world over, in Sweden it carries a two to six year sentence while in Britain you can get life. It didn’t say the exact circumstances in the article but as the charge of rape was only being sought in a few of the cases it’s looking to me like an offence was committed which would certainly count as rape in Germany.
But I’m not interested in the semantics, to my mind this is the embodiment of rape. Rapists get their gratification not from the intercourse but from the control, the power, the abuse. This is the US soldier at Abu Ghraib or the Israeli soldier humiliating a Palestinian. This was someone deliberately getting power over another person just so they could abuse them for their gratification. This was one hell of a lot closer to rape than anything Julian Assange did so if they can call that rape they most certainly should be calling this rape as well.
Arbed
And from what I understand from Google Mistranslate he was found guilty of sexual exploitation of children and was given a sentence of community service and a large fine most of which is payable to his victims – which all seems about right to me, although the less liberal would like a custodial sentence. And the district judge – at the end of the article specifically says that they couldn’t make a case for rape when there is no physical presence. The prosecutor may not like this – but that doesn’t mean that they can change Swedish Law. Sounds like Swedish justice will probably get the right answer on thsi one.
Habbabkuk to me:
Pay attention, Habbabkuk …
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/03/the-american-dream/#comment-396883
At least the royal news will take the disgusting media’s mind off war mongering in Syria and immigration.
The young couple will be hurrying home from Switzerland. They have more ‘breaks’ than the rest of us have hot dinners.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2287371/Kate-Middleton-Pregnant-Pregnant-Kate-goes-sledging-Swiss-Alps-instead-strapping-skis-winter-break-Wills.html
Do the unions copy each other’s debates?
A variation on the theme. The 10th anniversary of the Iraq war.
This House Regret The Consequences of U.S. Dominance
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=YOJZXwR_jgQ
@ Angry,
You said:-
“I think it is a rather grotesque stretching of the concept “to question” to include the actions of flying planes into buildings, don’t you? I mean, I have to ask that in all seriousness, because I seem to remember a few years back you expressed a wish for a couple of hundred passengers to be “offed” when you heard about the underpant bomber.”
Rather strong allegation there about “offed”. So – where is your proof that I said this?
BREAKING NEWS:Cardinal Keith O’Brian admits at ‘times my sexual conduct has fallen below the standards expected of me as a priest, archbishop and cardinal’
Apologies to Scottish people, Catholic church etc but I did not hear if he has apologized to the clerics. Retiring out of public life.
Fred,
“Rapists get their gratification not from the intercourse but from the control, the power, the abuse”
Yes, I agree with you – that’s why I find it so odd (in another thread) that Swedish rape law doesn’t include the concept of consent. To me, what makes the crime of rape so horrendous is the utter violation of someone else’s will, their right to decide what happens to them sexually and to their own bodies. From this it follows that where I part company with your view is that, for me, ‘rape’ does have involve some sort of violation of the physical body, and have an element of sexual humiliation.
Resident Dissident,
“And the district judge – at the end of the article specifically says that they couldn’t make a case for rape when there is no physical presence. The prosecutor may not like this – but that doesn’t mean that they can change Swedish Law.”
Yes, that was the point I was making. The lower courts have treated this case quite appropriately as far as I can see. They have found this 17-year-old guilty of a variety of offenses, given him a supervision order and fined him. What I was getting at is the case has been referred to Marianne Ny (Assange’s prosecutor) because the Swedish prosecutor was unhappy the courts turned down defining his crimes as ‘rape’ and it is Ny’s specific job – she heads the Sex Crimes Development Unit – to stretch the boundaries of what Swedish sex crimes legislation can cover.
Statement of ex Cardinal O’Brien
“In recent days certain allegations which have been made against me have become public. Initially, their anonymous and non-specific nature led me to contest them.
“However, I wish to take this opportunity to admit that there have been times that my sexual conduct has fallen below the standards expected of me as a priest, archbishop and cardinal.
“To those I have offended, I apologise and ask forgiveness. To the Catholic Church and people of Scotland, I also apologise.
“I will now spend the rest of my life in retirement. I will play no further part in the public life of the Catholic Church in Scotland.”
Rather bad timing with the conclave about to atart but better said than not. I always rather admired him for some of his outspokenness.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21649475
“the control, the power, the abuse”
Lots of people are turned on by controlling or being controlled, being powerful or overpowered. Even.. by being abusive and being abused (“sweet dreams are made of these”).
These instincts can all be naturally and healthily expressed in a mature consensual relationship, of course people differ about extent of masochistic play acceptable.
Rape could be motivated by different things in different instances, by lust, by anger, by despair, even by insane affection. Why do people reduce the subject of rape to a single archetype?
And I second Resident Dissident in wishing our Queen a good and speedy recovery. Long may she continue to reign over us.
**********
La vita è bella, life is good (Long live the Queen!)
“Rape could be motivated by different things in different instances, by lust, by anger, by despair, even by insane affection. Why do people reduce the subject of rape to a single archetype?”
Rape always involves one person having power and control over another, one person forcing another to commit sexual acts against their will.
The internet along with webcams and realtime communication are a new thing and I don’t think the laws have yet caught up with technology. The fact that the two people are not in the same location no longer has the same importance as it once had. To my mind this case is a modern day equivalent of rape and I think the person committing it had the same motivations as the conventional serial rapist. This is an entirely different thing to the Assange case.
La vita è bella, life is good (Long live the Queen!)
Just for you Here is a bit of history for you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIukrdRhnpw
Habba, I’m a Republican but the present Queen has done nothing that would deserve wishing her anything other than a good and speedy recovery. And it certainly isn’t a time for Mr Lawton’s bad taste videos.
Craig Murray 1983 University Challenge.
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/pressreleases/prmay02/unichallenge.htm
I think we can draw equivalence very loosely depending on our emotions. And when we do deny distinguishing details that is fanatical rightly or wrongly.
I dont think this kid felt like he was raping the other kids, or that the trauma of the girls should be framed that way (for anyones sake). These were teenagers exploring and falling foul of sexual instinct, but that it never went as far as physical molestation is a big mitigating factor which shouldnt be de~virtualised out of relevance.
—
There was a funny little aside joking about our rulers on the tellybox last week:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIseKpjoIYY&list=ELg7AGqo-yoig#t=8m00s
The Astonishing Hush-hush Of Methods One Could Rule scrapebox
vps Without Practical experience!
@ Resident Dissident :
The poster calling himself David Lawton feels impelled to respond to my wishes for the current Queen’s speedy recovery by linking to a spoof-satirical video on the “criminal history” of the British monarchy.
An ungracious, ill-mannered lout and a prize chump with it. He’d probably prefer a people’s President in the form of Ken Loach or Georgeous George.
“I dont think this kid felt like he was raping the other kids, or that the trauma of the girls should be framed that way (for anyones sake). These were teenagers exploring and falling foul of sexual instinct, but that it never went as far as physical molestation is a big mitigating factor which shouldnt be de~virtualised out of relevance.”
I think you are wrong, I think he knew exactly what he was doing. That he deliberately set out with the intention of doing it. That he had learnt how to go about it from others.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21314585
Well done Craig on an truth-dense 10 minutes of speaking! To Ben: I dislike British people as a hobby, but I’m quite fond of Craig.
Resident Dissident 3 Mar, 2013 – 8:28 pm
“I’m a Republican but the present Queen has done nothing that would deserve wishing her anything other than a good and speedy recovery.”
Royalty are the top dogs of an entrenched class system that belittles us all and literally kills the poor. Under such attack, under the endless barrage of royal propaganda, for us to say anything that forgives these idle rich bastards is spineless.
The queen is a pox. A pox on the queen.