I am deeply concerned about pre-emptive policing, or arresting people who might be going to do something wrong. I frankly don’t believe the BBC’s claim that intelligence indicated that anti-G8 protestors in Soho had weapons, or at any rate I do not believe it was honest intelligence. I note there are no reports of these weapons actually having been discovered.
The rounding up, arresting and beating of groups of protestors before they had even begun to protest is so taken for granted in London now that I can find no reflection in the media of the outrage I feel. If an old duffer like me feels completely alienated from the authoritarian state in which I find I now live, how do younger, more radical people feel? There seems a terrible divide between the corporate-political elite surrounded by their massive Praetorian guard at Bilderberg, and everybody else. Society is not stable.
The BBC has lost all sense of self-knowledge. Yesterday it displayed scenes of police beating protestors for no apparent reason on the streets of London, which was presented as protecting innocent shoppers on Oxford Street. This immediately followed very similar scenes of police beating protestors on the streets of Istanbul, which was portrayed as a terrible act of anti-Western suppression. Irony is dead.
@ Komodo.
“It’s the step we are on,” – Yes, but it’s the step we have glued ourselves on.
Bags use WD40 first 🙂
If we are worried what pathetic label they will fling at us, or that one or a few of us will be made an example of, then really, let’s give up now. I know you agree no matter what niggles you may have.
@John Goss
Done.
That’s some FOI request. I’d hate to be on the receiving end of it. And I have dealt with more than one in my day.
You’ve pulled the knots so tight that I suspect their only response will be to tell you to F ough.
Following with interest.
Hope you recover Chris
It’s good to see the passion on display here, it means there are still plenty of us left with the capacity to be shocked by these things.
I agree with Indigo:
Too true; the 9/11 generation have not known anything else whereas the rest of us can clearly remember how it never used to be like this.
KoWN makes a valid point about the long lineage of heavy handed pre-emptive policing in the UK. Before the miners strike the most blatant exercise was probably against the Committee of 100 in the early sixties-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_of_100_(United_Kingdom)
However, large swathes of the population agree with these measures when they are aimed at groups who offend the sensibilities of borgeouis ‘decents’, be they football supporters, the EDL, or acid house ravers. The police, of course, welcome the overtime these excursions generate, and quite a few of them enjoy cracking a few heads in the process.
Mind you, when taken by surprise, and confronted by an energised criminal lumpenproletariat (as in Tottenham & Croydon 2 summers ago) the boys in blue go all ‘softly softly’.
Lwtc –
Perhaps the best response to the step problem is Runner 77’s above. In which, I would nigglingly include the conditioned reflex: “Bastards! Demo! Demo!” The extreme version of my position is that you can tell the small part of the world you can reach how you feel as loudly as you like, but no-one gives a flying one unless they feel the same.
Welcome to the future now folks.
Pre-emptive policing,DNA profiling.Genetic triage.Individual internet pre-emptive bans.indefinite arrest without trial or evidence.Torture.Drones.Extraordinary rendition.Total surveillance from bjrth to death.All corporations a branch of military-industrial spookdom.Telematic,media and tech convergence.Behavioural profiling pre-birth to post-death.No right of appeal,ever.Global financial scams with total impunity for the scamsters.
Ever read the patents of the corporations whose products fill your homes and pockets? Ever wonder about those tiny little holes on your Samsung TV,or Apple Smartech,your microwave,laptop,desktop,Xbox etc?
2-way cameras and microphones,remotely controllable.
There will be no film,top ten single,TV show,politician,celeb,media narrative,clothing style,food,sporting event that hasnt been vetted and approved by the espiocracy.
Total information awareness,full spectrum dominance?
The greatest full system of global blackmail potential and fear you could ever imagine.
This is now.
2-way cameras and microphones,remotely controllable.
They can’t arrest treasonous criminals with their fingers caught in the cookie jar as Fox and Werrity were but assemble to protest, now there’s a reason for the Jackboots to bounce into action.
Our police have never been the same since Thatcher used them as her very own paramilitary to kill Unionism. The police were under orders to hurt the pickets.My dad was a policeman and my brother in law a miner.
Now of course they are a Corporate tool.Keep protest out of the camera’s lens and divide by 10 their estimated number at protest rallies.
If they don’t remember who they serve then they’ll be first in line to get it when the camels back goes.
Pre-emptive arrest goes with the Panopticon. It is good old fashioned British Utilitarianism, and it was used in the Empire every day for centuries.
That doesn’t excuse it but it goes some way to explaining the British public’s inherited indifference towards the civil rights of others whom authority deems suspicious or simply “in need of a good hiding.”
The Empire has come home, as voracious as ever, and it will brook no interference with its lust for wealth and power.
KingofWelshNoir/Chris2
“…the 9/11 generation have not known anything else whereas the rest of us can clearly remember how it never used to be like this.”
Valid point but they are human beings nevertheless and they can’t therefore feel right in their human skin. In fact, i submit that we got too cosy and comfortable when things never used to be like this IN THE WEST. The turmoil was all far away and the protests relatively token and symbolic.
Now the disease has spread throughout the West and its absolutely nothing to do with immigration. It has happened through a process of consciousness — the chickens have come home to roost. As Chris says ” The Empire has come home, as voracious as ever, and it will brook no interference with its lust for wealth and power.”
I meet a lot of young people between the ages of Manning, Snowden and Assange. They are asking a lot of the right questions, which we weren’t asking at their age and they are evidently protesting with right action, not just banners. Perhaps that’s why the Establishment feels threatened.
The internet is also changing the dynamics in infinite ways and is already capable of a direct democracy but Society is far from ready, with the Establishment preferring to use the internet for its self-serving surveillance purposes.
Boots on the ground. The photos within this link are grim especially the body language displayed in number 4.
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/06/11/world/europe/uk-g8-raid/
You are not ‘an old duffer’ Craig – stand strong. An unstable society needs experts.
@ Komodo…
“no-one gives a flying one unless they feel the same.” – sadly that seems to be very true of the majority. 🙁
“… the civil rights of others whom authority deems suspicious or simply “in need of a good hiding”.” — Chris2
Yep, after which they could be banged off to Van Diemen’s Land, out of sight and out of mind.
Not that some of them didn’t still manage to ’cause trouble’.
“Thomas Francis Meagher: After being convicted of sedition, he was first sentenced to death (he was sentenced to be “hanged, drawn and quartered”), but received transportation for life to Van Diemen’s Land in Australia. In 1852 he escaped and made his way to the United States, where he settled in New York City …
“At the beginning of the American Civil War, Meagher joined the U.S. Army and rose to the rank of brigadier general.[1] He was most notable for recruiting and leading the Irish Brigade …
“Following the Civil War, Meagher was appointed acting governor of the Montana Territory.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Francis_Meagher
I had never heard that story until told it by an Australian around the year 2000.
Jack Straw: Aren’t we wonderful?
(click for remark in context)
William Hague: Yes, we’re bloody marvellous.
All: Hip, hip, hooray.
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debate/?id=2013-06-10a.38.0
“…and ultimately will have neither”
The final part of the Franklin quote is worth retaining I feel.
Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley, Labour)
‘As one who continues to campaign for the young US-British soldier Bradley Manning, and exchanges e-mails and telephone calls with his defence counsel, can I assume that I am free from any surveillance, either from the United States or Britain?’
William Hague (Secretary of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs; Richmond (Yorks), Conservative)
‘I can only reiterate what I said to my hon. Friend Mr Bone about the Wilson doctrine, and I believe that the right hon. Lady can be confident in that.’
What he said to Mr Bone
‘There is a long-standing convention, named after a former Labour Prime Minister, which has always been upheld, so my hon. Friend and Mrs Bone can be assured of that.’
What is the Wilson doctrine?
The Wilson Doctrine is a ban on the tapping of UK MPs’ and Peers’ (but not members of devolved legislatures) telephones introduced in 1966 and named after Harold Wilson, the Labour Prime Minister who established the rule.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilson_Doctrine
The word “email” doesn’t appear.
Sorry, left out the first link
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2013-06-10a.31.0#g38.0
After this ‘Wilson Doctrine’ was already operational Hilary Benn informed his father Tony Benn, that he could pick up his fathers wired 1960s telephone conversations on an ordinary AM radio as could anyone else within a considerable range of their house. Benn then wasn’t only an MP but also a cabinet minister.
Of course they’re monitoring those communications. Hague is a proven liar and a bad one.
On pre-emptive policing, even if the alleged offence is trumped up nonsense, protesting your innocence vehemently will be considered a breach of the peace, not submitting to arbitrary arrest is ‘resisting arrest’. After arrest detention, photographing, fingerprinting and DNA swabs taken, an ‘offer’ whereby the original unsustainable allegation will be dropped but the breach and resisting arrest charges will be persisted with, an ‘opportunity’ to avoid court by payment of a fine would be made, and though this is effectively extortion, many will accept this. Choosing to defend all charges in court is the better option for bringing the system grinding to a halt and exposing the abuses this system perpetuates, but most will knuckle under to this intimidation and threat of a protracted affair and a worse outcome.
“Whistle-blower Edward Snowden tells SCMP: ‘Let Hong Kong people decide my fate’
Ex-CIA operative wants to remain in Hong Kong”
http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1259422/edward-snowden-let-hong-kong-people-decide-my-fate
Snowden said last night that he had no doubts about his choice of Hong Kong.
“People who think I made a mistake in picking Hong Kong as a location misunderstand my intentions. I am not here to hide from justice; I am here to reveal criminality,” Snowden said in an exclusive interview with the South China Morning Post.
“I have had many opportunities to flee HK, but I would rather stay and fight the United States government in the courts, because I have faith in Hong Kong’s rule of law,” he added.
Snowden says he has committed no crimes in Hong Kong and has “been given no reason to doubt [Hong Kong’s legal] system”.
“My intention is to ask the courts and people of Hong Kong to decide my fate,” he said.
;;;
‘Hong Kong Human Rights Monitor director Law Yuk-kai said he was surprised by Snowden’s choice, adding: “Snowden’s positive view of Hong Kong no longer matches the reality.”
Law said a possible reason for his choice could be Hong Kong’s role as the region’s news hub.
“Hong Kong remains a hub of the global media, not least because of its proximity to the economic boom in southern China and the ease of access to many other Asian cities. The publicity could complicate efforts by the United States to charge Snowden and have him deported,” he said.
Snowden said yesterday that he felt safe in the city.
“As long as I am assured a free and fair trial, and asked to appear, that seems reasonable,” he said.
He says he plans to stay in Hong Kong until he is “asked to leave”.
The United States has not yet filed an application for extradition.
Snowden could choose to fight any extradition attempt in court. Another option open to him is to seek refugee status from the office of the UN High Commissioner for Refugees in Hong Kong.
The UNHCR would not confirm whether it had received an application for refugee status from Snowden.
Earlier, in the interview in which he revealed his identity to the world, Snowden explained that he had sought refuge in Hong Kong because it “has a strong tradition of free speech” and “a long tradition of protesting in the streets.”
On BBC News24 I can watch anti-government protests live from Turkey but not one single picture from the London G8 protests. Oh well, guess I’ll have to find out from the Russians what’s going on in my own country.
Now I know how all those soviet citizens felt between 1945 and 1988; getting all their news from the ‘other side’. Does this mean I am now in a totalitarian society? You better believe it.
“Hague is a proven liar and a bad one.”
I wouldn’t trust him as far as I could throw him.
There were even some old duffers on the streets yesterday.
The Wilson doctrine is essentially a gentleman’s agreement then?
That should be adequate 🙂
Komodo
” our protesters are naive to think that, the police aren’t usually slightly ahead of their planning”
Don’t be daft. Of course police tactics are considered. In my experience these protesters, on the sharp end, are far more aware of police tactics than theorists.
And spontaneous mass uprisings are never entirely spontaneous – there is always a background of some sort of activists organising.
Thanks Póló.
The loss of our freedom and liberty is linked so often to 9/11 from which the evil of ‘The War on Terror’ flowed. I have seen many references recently in op-ed articles.
Here, for instance.
Manning and Snowden in 2016?
Boundless Patriotism
by Frank Scott / June 12th, 2013
‘But after the 911 attacks on New York and Washington, whatever slight caution may have existed vanished as realistic fear of terrorism replaced fictional fear of communism. It was frightening enough to cause another rush of government intrusion into the lives of citizens, allegedly to save them from further terror attacks. While this argument still works for misinformed innocents, true believers and cynics who fully accept mass murder and deceit as necessary functions of the American marketplace, it is losing its strength among a growing minority.’
http://dissidentvoice.org/2013/06/boundless-patriotism-manning-and-snowden-in-2016/
O/T Hester is leaving RBS with a package of £4.5m. It has been decided that he is not the right person to see its sale through according to Peston. Did Gideon get his orders last week in Watford?
By rights, 60m of us actually own it. We forked out £45 billion to bail it out FFS.
“The Wilson doctrine is essentially a gentleman’s agreement then?”
and it’s qualified
‘But if there was any development of a kind which required a change in the general policy, I would, at such moment as seemed compatible with the security of the country, on my own initiative make a statement to the House about it.’
—Harold Wilson, House of Commons
‘This meant that the Prime Minister could reverse the doctrine in the interests of national security, but that he did not need to reveal the fact to the House of Commons until he felt it safe to do so. In theory this means that the Wilson Doctrine could already have been reversed, with the Prime Minister having decided it was premature to disclose the fact.’
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilson_Doctrine
and it goes on
“In February 2008 it was reported that Sadiq Khan had been bugged whilst talking to a constituent in Woodhill Prison. However since this appeared to have been a face-to-face conversation, even if it was bugged, it may not have been a literal breach of the Wilson Doctrine. An inquiry was launched by Justice Secretary, The Rt Hon. Jack Straw MP.[4]
“Further questions about the validity of the Doctrine arose in November 2008 after the home and Parliamentary offices of Damian Green MP were searched by the Metropolitan Police.[5] Other questions in the Lords asked whether communications which had been stored were protected by the same doctrine.[6]”