To simply say “protestors good, government bad” in Turkey is a symptom of the Blair delusion, that in civil conflicts there are guys with white hats and guys with black hats, and that the West’s role is to ride into town and kill the guys in the black hats. That is what “liberal intervention” means. The main aim of my second autobiographical book, “The Catholic Orangemen of Togo”, was to explain through the truth of the Sierra Leone experience how very, very wrong this is.
In fact civil conflicts are usually horribly complex, anent a variety of very bad people all trying to gain or retain power, none of them from an altruistic desire to make the world a better place. There may be ordinary people on the streets with that altruistic desire, being used and manipulated by these men; but it is not the ordinary altruistic people on the streets who ever come to power. Ever.
In Turkey the heavy crushing of a rainbow of protests in Istanbul has been going on for at least a month now. A week ago I was discussing it with my publisher, whose son lives in the city. A fortnight ago I was in Istanbul myself.
The Turkish people I was with were natural Erdogan supporters, and what struck me very forcibly was the fact that he has sickened many of his own natural allies by the rampant corruption in Turkey at present. Almost everyone I met spoke to me about corruption, and Turkey being Turkey, everyone seemed to know a very great deal of detail about how corruption was organised in various building and development projects and who was getting what. It therefore is hardly surprising that the spark which caused this conflict to flare to a new level was ignited by a corrupt deal to build a shopping centre on a park. The desecration of something lovely for money could be a metaphor for late Erdogan government.
The park is very small beer compared to the massive corruption involved in the appalling and megalomaniac Bosphorus canal project. Everyone talked to me about that one. The mainstream media, who never seem to know what is happening anywhere, seem to have missed that a major cause of the underlying unrest in Istanbul was the government’s announcement eight weeks ago that the Bosphorus canal is going ahead.
People are also incensed by the new proposal that would ban the sale of alcohol within 100 metres of any mosque or holy site, ie anywhere within central Istanbul. That would throw thousands of people out of work, damage the crucial tourist trade and is rightly seen as a symptom of reprehensible mounting religious intolerance that endangers Turkish society.
So there are plenty of legitimate reasons to protest, and the appalling crushing of protest is the best of them
But – and this is what it is never in the interest of Western politicians to understand – Government bad does not equal protestors good. A very high proportion – more than the British public realise by a very long way – of those protesting in the streets are off the scale far right nationalists of a kind that make the BNP look cuddly and Nigel Farage look like Tony Benn. Kemalism – the worship of Ataturk and a very unpleasant form of military dominated nationalism – remains very strong indeed in Istanbul. Ataturk has a very strong claim, ahead of Mussolini, to be viewed as the inventor of modern fascism
For every secular liberal in Istanbul there are two secular ultra-nationalist militarists. To westerners they stress the secular bit and try to hide the rest, and this works on the uncurious (being uncurious is a required attribute to get employed by the mainstream media). Of course there are decent, liberal, environmentalist protestors and the media will have no difficulty, now they have finally noticed something is happening, in filling our screens with beautiful young women who fit that description, to interview. But that is not all of what is going on here.
There certainly was no more freedom in Turkey before the AKP came to power. Government for decades had been either by the Kemalist military in dictatorship or occasionally by civilian governments they tolerated and controlled. People suddenly have short memories if they think protest was generally tolerated pre-Erdogan, and policy towards the Kurds was massively more vicious.
The military elite dominated society and through corruption they dominated commerce and the economy. The interests of a protected and generally fascist urban upper middle class were the only interests that counted at all. The slightest threat to those interests brought a military coup – again, and again, and again. Religion was barely tolerated, and they allied closely with Israel and the United States.
When Erdogan first came to power it was the best thing that had happened to Turkey for decades. The forgotten people of the Anatolian villages, and the lower middle class of the cities, had a voice and a position in the state for the first time. In individual towns and villages, the military and their clients who had exercised absolute authority had their power suddenly diminished. I witnessed this and it was a new dawn, and it felt joyous.
Then of course Erdogan gradually got sucked in to power, to money, to NATO, to the corruption of his Black Sea mafia and to arrogance. It all went very wrong, as it always seems to. That is where we are now.
Yes of course I want those pretty, genuinely liberal environmentalist girls in the park to take power. But they won’t. Look at the hard-eyed fascists behind them. Look at the western politicians licking their lips thinking about the chance to get a nice very right wing, anti-Muslim and pro-Israel government into power.
We should all be concerned at what is happening in Turkey. We should all call for an end to violent repression. But to wish the overthrow of a democratically elected government, and its replacement – by what exactly? – is a very, very foolish reaction.
@Ayyas Capulcu
@Oske
I agree with your comments I have read thus far, and while I am an outsider my spouse and brother in law are from Istanbul. They both were the first to let me know about the sneaky tactics used by Erdogan to get elected long before these protests began. They are were fearful that the AK’s hold on power, and their societal ‘reforms’ are heading down the road to Islamization and Sharia Law. I believe most who have pictures and t-shirts of Ataturk, are expressing that there is a big demand to have a secular government. There are people from all walks of life demonstrating, which I FULLY SUPPORT. I am AGAINST any country which wishes to combine religion and government, ESPECIALLY a religion which hides behind what it really is. The people are truly fed up with what Erdogan believes he has the right to do. Such as tearing down trees in a historic park so he can build a MOSQUE, shopping mall, and upscale housing.. If one is to argue that Erdogan and his AKP won 50% of the vote last election, then that would mean that the other 50% didn’t vote for him. He has FAILED to realize that he serves and represents all of Turkey. I believe King Abdullah II of Jordan said it best of him, “Erdogan once said that democracy for him is a bus ride,’Once I get to my stop, I’m getting off’.” This is VERY typical of all these Islamists who have taken power in middle eastern countries. Erdogan deputies have dismissed these demonstrations as ‘looters’ and ‘alcoholics’ which hold no validity, and an article I just read suggests that these are the typical tactics being used by the Islamists who have taken power in Egypt and Tunisia:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/06/04/turkey-protests-islamist-pattern/2386287
Islamization is the WORST thing that can come, and I can only hope that the misguided people who actually thought or think its a good idea can see what a danger it is, and there is no such thing as DEMOCRACY in any SHARIA based society.
The funny thing is, the shopping mall is going to be named after “the artillery barracks”.That was the meeting place of military coup leaders who planned to support the Sultan against democratization of the country.
These counter revolutionary forces was surrounded and defeated. The barracks was demolished to send a message to show that democracy would be protected in the ottoman era from 1908 onwards.
Nowadays, Erdogan wants to build a mall after the name of the barracks because he likes the era of the Sultans and hates the army which had Ataturk as one the officials in it.
Yeah I know. Some claim that he’s basically trying to be the leader of a new Ottoman empire. He’s also touting his government as the Islam example of government for the middle east, which concerns me the most. Once in power these people throw democracy away, and want to become supreme leaders, and throw their militias onto the street to crush opposition like in Egypt!
The last political coup by the military didn’t work out that hot, but what did he do…. All those general officers convicted of a coup attempt pretty much rules that out, so really the only thing he has to rely on is the police, unless he goes the Muslim Brotherhood route (and he has threatened it).
I can only hope you guys keep protesting. Its great to see all the different kinds of people and their ideologies standing against him now. For a country that is trying to be a guiding light in the middle east it boggles my mind how so many journalists have been imprisoned (along with military commanders)! I hope Taksim remains the way it is, and not the way he is imposing on it!
This is the survey of Gezi Park case: Why are these activits are on the streets?
http://www.nationalturk.com/en/survey-gezi-park-case-activists-protests-24412
‘The results have given clear clues about the identity of this group and their requests. According to the study published in Habervesaire.com, people going out are not a member of political party or supporter as PM Tayyip Erdogan once said.39.6% of activists are between the age of 19-25; 24% are between 26-30 and 75.8% of them participated into this case by going out.’
Right now, instead of preaching calm and a peaceful manner in dealing with the gezi park protesters, Erdogan is using buses to collect his supporters to welcome him to Turkey in the airport.
Wow, what a wise prime minister. He is calling his base out to “silence” the protester and show them his “power”.
Yep ‘wise’. If he was really interested in the people he would address them, and propose some sort of compromise or solutions to the demands. When some of the protesters also voted for you and your party, I would think that would be some sort of clue that something is not right. I wish at least one major world leader would publicly say he should listen…. I don’t think any will due to their interests, and I am also disappointed at the lack of coverage here in the US! I saw only a brief segment on CNN the other night. I hope the coverage has at least improved in Turkey.
They are trying to show the protests by not really showing them. False headlines,baseless accusations, denial of censure…
@ Spalding
thanks for your awareness, which is only thing we wish to have. As you know we are struggling with not only a fascist Islamist Erdogan but also censored media.
Despite of all sneaky tactics, demagogy, Islamist manipulation, he got 50% in last electin. Now, he is drunk with this power. He is inclined to neglect another 50% and their demands. He thinks he can do whatever he like, since %50 of the population gave himthis power. But democracy does not consist of only the elections, democracy also requires participation.
As a citizen, I do not feel secure anymore. Because he has no respect to anyone who does not think/live as him. And he is forcing people to live in a conservative way. That’s why people are fighting today.
It strikes me, that after a decade in power, and like our very own Tony Blair and Margaret Thatcher,to name but two, Erdogan (for whom I am rapidly losing my earlier respect) has probably gone mad. May I propose that all national leaders are removed from office, if necessary by force, after nine years? US presidents get two terms of four years: that policy removed GWB just before the men in white coats had to….
http://i.imgur.com/B88hUOp.png
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-1-WNiPjgHUo/UbGZq8Q7tEI/AAAAAAAAAr0/223OH2w_KWA/s640/bugun-7-haziran-2013-cuma.jpg
8 of the newspapers have all the same headlines. Nice,huh?
Freedom of press? Can’t find it atm.
Komodo,
Term limits are great in my opinion. After FDR we wanted to make sure no President ever had that amount of power again, even though most liked him.
With a parliamentary system, I have yet to see one that limits the term of a PM, but I could be wrong. Perhaps it’s because ‘the executive branch does not derive its democratic legitimacy from the legislature.’
Unfortunately, true.
Anony, how long before Anonymous gets after Turkey? Google translate doesn’t give me the nuance of the headline — please help.
——-
Komodo, Baydar of Zaman was also saying there is a Thatcher and Blair syndrome happening. Agree with your proposal though at 8 years maximum, that’s one thing the US has right.
@Oske
Most fascist Islamist’s censor the media by default, in fact it’s probably rule one in their play book… Nothing good comes from that political system, and anything original is met with suspicion and is usually knocked down by scholar’s and supreme leaders.
My wife and in-laws all saw this coming years ago when they started rounding up top generals and putting them in jail for conspiring and treason. My wife has a real issue with his first ban on alcohol in Taksim square (making tourists drink in doors), and now the ban on selling from 10pm to 6am (when things really come to life!). Anyways, I started looking in to the matter as western media is writing articles about the man in such as positive light calling him ‘a moderate with a vision’ (probably because the US considers Turkey a major ally in the region, and this is probably why your struggle is barely making the news here).
When I first mentioned him from the western media articles to my wife and brother in law, they went crazy on me and told me to start looking really close at what the man is doing internally to individual liberties in Turkey. After I looked into the AKP and him further, I was amazed this guy and his party still retain power! But to the AKP’s credit they really did things for the people when they made a run for power. Even their light bulb emblem was genius as it didn’t outwardly show any religious signs which would violate laws… Anyways, when the news of what’s currently happening came to us, I was really ecstatic. The people are finally tired of taking his governments shit! If I was there, I would march with you guys! ISLAM IS NOT THE ANSWER (as the pigs at the Muslim Brotherhood claim), and Turkey must remain secular.
Yep… Here comes the ‘brotherhood’…
“The crowds chanted “We will die for you, Erdogan”, “Let’s go crush them all” and “Let us go, let’s crush Taksim”.
“Anony, how long before Anonymous gets after Turkey? Google translate doesn’t give me the nuance of the headline — please help.”
Despite my name, I don’t have anything to do with THE Anonymous : )
Kidding aside, Anonymous have already attacked the government web sites and took some of them down.
All 8 newspapers, have the same headline(it speaks wonders for our freedom of press,doesn’t it?):
“in the face of demands for democratic rights, my life is forfeit.” Basically a response filled with bravado and posturing instead of any real change by the pm, he even threatened a high ranking official* of garanti bank.
The official said that he was also a “çapulcu”,a word the prime minister saw fit to describe the protesters that means “looter”, to show support for the protesters. The prime minister couldn’t even handle that. He said that he would be at odds with anyone who would show support for the protesters.
*The guy, of course, didn’t support the protesters out of goodness of his heart. One of the largest shareholders of the bank, is also the owner of a news channel. That news channel refused to show the demonstrations and thus the whole conglomerate was the target for a boycott campaign.
There kind of old now, but I’m thinking we need to send Rage Against The Machine to you guys. I’m sure they could provide enough amp’s to piss Erdogan off further!
They are kind of an inspiration for the protesters I know. Wake up, listen to RAtM then go to protest. Some people do that 🙂
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tmHGj7lBAA
This time the bullet cold rocked ya
A yellow ribbon instead of a swastika
Nothin’ proper about ya propaganda
Fools follow rules when the set commands ya
Said it was blue
When ya blood was read
That’s how ya got a bullet blasted through ya head
Blasted through ya head
Blasted through ya head
I give a shout out to the living dead
Who stood and watched as the feds cold centralized
So serene on the screen
You were mesmerised
Cellular phones soundin’ a death tone
Corporations cold
Turn ya to stone before ya realise
They load the clip in omnicolour
Said they pack the 9, they fire it at prime time
Sleeping gas, every home was like Alcatraz
And mutha fuckas lost their minds
Just victims of the in-house drive-by
They say jump, you say how high
Just victims of the in-house drive-by
They say jump, you say how high
Just victims of the in-house drive-by
They say jump, you say how high
Just victims of the in-house drive-by
They say jump, you say how high
Checka, checka, check it out
They load the clip in omnicolour
Said they pack the 9, they fire it at prime time
Sleeping gas, every home was like Alcatraz
And mutha fuckas lost their minds
No escape from the mass mind rape
Play it again jack and then rewind the tape
And then play it again and again and again
Until ya mind is locked in
Believin’ all the lies that they’re tellin’ ya
Buyin’ all the products that they’re sellin’ ya
They say jump and ya say how high
Ya brain-dead
Ya gotta fuckin’ bullet in ya head
Just victims of the in-house drive-by
They say jump, you say how high
Just victims of the in-house drive-by
They say jump, you say how high
Ya standin’ in line
Believin’ the lies
Ya bowin’ down to the flag
Ya gotta bullet in ya head
Ya standin’ in line
Believin’ the lies
Ya bowin’ down to the flag
Ya gotta bullet in ya head
Ya gotta bullet in ya fuckin’ head!
Another British observation
http://www.vice.com/en_uk/vice-news/istanbul-rising#ooid=llN2o4YzrttnaVv7JoHXAcpwowNHcWW7
“Can i see a source for that? Because war crimes were often made up propaganda many a allied forces member in the west, regularly used. Even though,sometimes it was plainly made up.”
If this is the mind-set that that is held by many of the Protestors, then the Protests, despite all the noble slogans & sentiments will surely fail. Previously, allowances could be made for saturation indoctrination from birth, but for the present internet generation of Turks to still deny the historical record, and as to what Kemalism really entailed, is exactly akin to Holocaust denial. There is ample official documentation, photographic evidence, innumerable witness testimony, survivors accounts, forensic evidence, etc, etc. Of course people afflicted with this mind-set will always attack the source of this evidence, as shown with the comments about George Horton, the Consul-General of the United States; the problem for these people is that they also then have to try to discredit countless other sources, from academic historians such as Arnold Toynbee, to many Missionaries testimonies (Tacy Atkinson, Berta Morley, Maria Jacobsen, etc), even a US Ambassador (Ambassdor Morgenthau’s Story).
“What the Young Turks did to us in two years, Kemal did in 15 days,”
http://what-when-how.com/women-and-war/smyrna-tragedy-continuing-ordeal-for-women-survivors-of-the-atrocities/
Only when modern Turks manage to see through the Cult of Ataturk, will they be able to proceed to live up to those noble Protest slogans.
“Previously, allowances could be made for saturation indoctrination from birth, but for the present internet generation of Turks to still deny the historical record, and as to what Kemalism really entailed, is exactly akin to Holocaust denial.”
Macky, sorry, you are making very broad assumptions, being prosecutor, judge and jury and getting it completely wrong. You love your history and that is fine. But maybe i don’t. And if you got out into the square amongst all the clean-hearted, young people who don’t approve of wild-scale corruption, arrogance and insensitivity to their environment would you be shocked if they weren’t interested in deep history, but in fresh, new, creative actions. That sounds more like the internet generation to me. Oske has effectively said so above and Komodo summarised it intelligently.
Firstly I can only go on those posting here in support of the Protestors, who seem to rage against Erdogan’s many faults, but yet seek to deny or minimalize the blood-soaked major crimes of Kemal Ataturk, simply because he founded their precious secular State;
I personally cannot see how “clean-hearted, young people who don’t approve of wild-scale corruption, arrogance and insensitivity to their environment”, can possibly attempt to white-wash the horrendous crimes of Ataturk’s secular State; corruption bad, genocide ok ?!!
As to “deep history”, I once met an old man in Cyprus, who had two old keys tied on a string around his next, the one key was to his family home in Smyrna, he & his mother made it to Greece, but his father & older brother were last seen on a death march; and the second key was to his home in Kyrenia, lost to invading Turks in 1974; try telling this man that all this is just “deep history”.
As to Komodo, who is a regular here that I respect, but his rather odd assumption that I was “conflating”, and then not followed by the courtesy of an acknowledgment when I explained the assumption, but instead a school-yard type sniggering “LOL” post in Turkish to Oske, is such rude forum etiquette & bad manners, that I find my respect for him somewhat diminished now.
@Macky
We get your point. To have your support even for our rightful course about freedom of speech, firstly we need to accept everything you say about history. It is what a unfortunate stipulation in terms of conscience.
Do you think every single person living on this land coming from a pure race? Even I have four different racial roots from my ancestors. If you want to listen a story, I have my own, too, about assimilation & seperation. My family also suffered from Ottoman Empire and then Turkish governments. But as I said before there is nothing about history or politics here. You are inclined to ignore everything we share to show this fact. There are Kurdish & Armenian & Turkish people are fighting side by side for their freedom of speech. That Armenians do not mention massacre “for now”. Tomorrow, after they win their fight against despotizm, they will discuss the history again. But not today, because today they try to survive from fascist Islamist Erdogan’s forthcoming dictatorship.
I am sorry for you, because you can not wish peace for someone who thinks different from you. I wish you would never suffer from any government violence just because of your race/belief/preferences.
Take care
Macky, if you insist on talking history, which bores me really, you still haven’t answered my post of:
Villager
6 Jun, 2013 – 7:15 am
Second, please read the bits about gas bottles/cans/cannisters by Anony and Craig and comment about any possible misunderstanding created there.
Third, i’ll be interested in your response to the Economist article linked above.
Komodo was just trying to set the record straight re: history — i wouldn’t worry too much about a slight perceived lapse of etiquette, minor compared with the spitting on each other thats been going on another thread.
Finally i’ll read with interest your response to Oske’s plea.
One more observation, i’d like to acknowledge the tone with which Turkish friends here have contributed. Contrast with the Scotland thread.
First of all, some of your sources are eye witness testimonies,yes. But some of them were obviously contested for bias. And there are counter accounts for what happened. And to somehow compare Armenian genocide, in what what happened in Izmir fire,is simply bias. There is no comparison. If you can’t admit that, then you will have a less sympathetic ear to anyone listening to you.
But In Izmir fire, people have died needlessly, there should be apologies for that no matter who was responsible whether Ataturk was involved or not.
Please provide links for your forensic,photographic evidence or any other kind of sources for which you reference. If Horton is biased,it’s not my problem. There are many witness testimonies citing the atrocities committed in Izmir by other parties. Do you see us blaming them? I’m not bringing it up for dodging the issue, but to remind people that in order to whitewash war crimes committed by the Greek forces, there have been exaggerated accounts for what happened in Izmir. During all this, genocide debate, I even saw faked photos of begging children for bread while being taunted with it by a Turkish man.
Nonetheless, In Izmir fire, people have died needlessly,and there should be apologies for that no matter who was responsible whether Ataturk was involved or not. There were war crimes by 1 or 2 generals that i know of. One was responsible for the killing of an important religious figure in Izmir.
Now, I’m telling you to get off your high horse, you don’t have the right to judge anyone in the demonstrations, certainly not against someone like Erdogan who denies any kind of genocide in the ottoman era.
And the last link,you gave is one of the most inarticulate ones i have seen. The previous ones were better for finger pointing.
For the first paragraph, killing of any innocent people in Izmir is wrong. But to somehow deem us responsible for it, is also wrong. We came here to talk about the demonstrations and you blame us for what happened in 80 years ago. You want us to plea for our guilt before you wholeheartedly support us.
Or do you want to diminish our wants for democracy with those accusations? Why do you expect us to be seat as a defendant in a trial when we are protesting by PEACEFUL means against someone who is in power?
For that old man,I’m sorry for his loss, but to somehow imply that his loss was the only one because he was you met through your travels is wrong.
You shouldn’t even bring up Cyprus, other than Turkey’s faults in the political arena regarding it,after the events. There are thousands of Turks killed in Cyprus by Greek forces who wanted the island one with Greece. We almost had another genocide of Turks in Cyprus in order to “sanitize” for joining Cyprus.
Please don’t talk about “deep history”, this isn’t a place to compare faults, especially considering how many people died in Izmir.
And please, don’t talk about manners when you merrily joined the case to smear the movement by the author. We are here for any questions about the protest, not how you want to talk about faults of all Turkish people.
This expectation of Macky to explain all the faults of the governments in Turkey,is really a contradiction. We are fighting against suppression but somehow we are responsible for what happened 80 years ago. And you somehow want to continue the tradition of the GOOD values of the old, you are wrong. I don’t agree with that kind of thinking.
We want to see a secular democracy in Turkey. That’s simple enough,right?
We are sorry for the dead in the past,simple enough?
The author or Macky don’t have the right expect us to plea for guilt in ANY case, just because we are protesting. I’m sure that’s also simple enough.
For example,in demonstrations,there are posters of Ocalan, brought by Kurdish nationalists, who was responsible for the death of thousands, he himself admitted having issued the kill order.
Do you really think we are judging the past,right now?
I want to especially point this one out. Did you know during the campaign of Greek forces in Anatolia or the fighting of Armenian irregulars in the east, did similar things to those accounts? We have photos of what they have done. We also have eye witness accounts of them, do you see anyone here,bringing any of them out? Personally, I view some of those accounts on any side as hit pieces, not that it didn’t happen. But because when the truth isn’t enough people embellish them, you don’t build a future based on bitterness of people during a war. Some of those witnesses may be right, some of them may be made up like faked photos.
You apologize for what happened by not pointing fingers to show anger but for the truth. Then you talk about what happened not as a political point or for a judgmental agenda (like what you did here),but as an issue for humanity.
Turks during the Izmir fire, may have done terrible things out of anger during the war. Whether they were ordered by anyone or not, should be investigated. There should be sincere apologies, but to use those sufferings of the past as a political point today is really not something i agree with.
If I were of such a mind, I wouldn’t even be talking here. Because the events in Iraq,Syria and now in Turkey, is the result of British/Western Imperialism. I still sometimes remember the accounts of the officer in the British army;how she just decided the borders of Iraq with just a ruler and a map. Because people’s lives are/were just so easy to play with for the British government.
As I pointed out before, I don’t agree on pointing fingers before any kind of conversation can occur. You,Macky, have been doing that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=Jrl_dWObafU