To simply say “protestors good, government bad” in Turkey is a symptom of the Blair delusion, that in civil conflicts there are guys with white hats and guys with black hats, and that the West’s role is to ride into town and kill the guys in the black hats. That is what “liberal intervention” means. The main aim of my second autobiographical book, “The Catholic Orangemen of Togo”, was to explain through the truth of the Sierra Leone experience how very, very wrong this is.
In fact civil conflicts are usually horribly complex, anent a variety of very bad people all trying to gain or retain power, none of them from an altruistic desire to make the world a better place. There may be ordinary people on the streets with that altruistic desire, being used and manipulated by these men; but it is not the ordinary altruistic people on the streets who ever come to power. Ever.
In Turkey the heavy crushing of a rainbow of protests in Istanbul has been going on for at least a month now. A week ago I was discussing it with my publisher, whose son lives in the city. A fortnight ago I was in Istanbul myself.
The Turkish people I was with were natural Erdogan supporters, and what struck me very forcibly was the fact that he has sickened many of his own natural allies by the rampant corruption in Turkey at present. Almost everyone I met spoke to me about corruption, and Turkey being Turkey, everyone seemed to know a very great deal of detail about how corruption was organised in various building and development projects and who was getting what. It therefore is hardly surprising that the spark which caused this conflict to flare to a new level was ignited by a corrupt deal to build a shopping centre on a park. The desecration of something lovely for money could be a metaphor for late Erdogan government.
The park is very small beer compared to the massive corruption involved in the appalling and megalomaniac Bosphorus canal project. Everyone talked to me about that one. The mainstream media, who never seem to know what is happening anywhere, seem to have missed that a major cause of the underlying unrest in Istanbul was the government’s announcement eight weeks ago that the Bosphorus canal is going ahead.
People are also incensed by the new proposal that would ban the sale of alcohol within 100 metres of any mosque or holy site, ie anywhere within central Istanbul. That would throw thousands of people out of work, damage the crucial tourist trade and is rightly seen as a symptom of reprehensible mounting religious intolerance that endangers Turkish society.
So there are plenty of legitimate reasons to protest, and the appalling crushing of protest is the best of them
But – and this is what it is never in the interest of Western politicians to understand – Government bad does not equal protestors good. A very high proportion – more than the British public realise by a very long way – of those protesting in the streets are off the scale far right nationalists of a kind that make the BNP look cuddly and Nigel Farage look like Tony Benn. Kemalism – the worship of Ataturk and a very unpleasant form of military dominated nationalism – remains very strong indeed in Istanbul. Ataturk has a very strong claim, ahead of Mussolini, to be viewed as the inventor of modern fascism
For every secular liberal in Istanbul there are two secular ultra-nationalist militarists. To westerners they stress the secular bit and try to hide the rest, and this works on the uncurious (being uncurious is a required attribute to get employed by the mainstream media). Of course there are decent, liberal, environmentalist protestors and the media will have no difficulty, now they have finally noticed something is happening, in filling our screens with beautiful young women who fit that description, to interview. But that is not all of what is going on here.
There certainly was no more freedom in Turkey before the AKP came to power. Government for decades had been either by the Kemalist military in dictatorship or occasionally by civilian governments they tolerated and controlled. People suddenly have short memories if they think protest was generally tolerated pre-Erdogan, and policy towards the Kurds was massively more vicious.
The military elite dominated society and through corruption they dominated commerce and the economy. The interests of a protected and generally fascist urban upper middle class were the only interests that counted at all. The slightest threat to those interests brought a military coup – again, and again, and again. Religion was barely tolerated, and they allied closely with Israel and the United States.
When Erdogan first came to power it was the best thing that had happened to Turkey for decades. The forgotten people of the Anatolian villages, and the lower middle class of the cities, had a voice and a position in the state for the first time. In individual towns and villages, the military and their clients who had exercised absolute authority had their power suddenly diminished. I witnessed this and it was a new dawn, and it felt joyous.
Then of course Erdogan gradually got sucked in to power, to money, to NATO, to the corruption of his Black Sea mafia and to arrogance. It all went very wrong, as it always seems to. That is where we are now.
Yes of course I want those pretty, genuinely liberal environmentalist girls in the park to take power. But they won’t. Look at the hard-eyed fascists behind them. Look at the western politicians licking their lips thinking about the chance to get a nice very right wing, anti-Muslim and pro-Israel government into power.
We should all be concerned at what is happening in Turkey. We should all call for an end to violent repression. But to wish the overthrow of a democratically elected government, and its replacement – by what exactly? – is a very, very foolish reaction.
There used to be a lot more Turkish socialists; it was one of the major forces in politics there inthe 1960s and 1970s. But then, there used to be a lot more British socialists, too and British socialist (or partly socialist) parties too (!)
“People are also incensed by the new proposal that would ban the sale of alcohol within 100 metres of any mosque or holy site, ie anywhere within central Istanbul.”
My understanding of this is that it is not a proposal, but a new law that has been passed that, among other things, bans the provision of NEW licences to sell alcohol within 100m of a mosque or school, rather than mandating the cancellation of already-attributed licences to sell alcohol. Which (if correct) is quite a big difference – although if alcohol purveyors have to regularly renew their licences and if this law prevents their renewal if they are near a mosque or school (I’m not sure on this), it would have the same effect over time.
RP
You may be right – my source is what I was told by restaurant owners while I was there. Certainly they believe they stand to be closed down. But it is still a stupid act of intolerance either way.
“Ataturk has a very strong claim, ahead of Mussolini, to be viewed as the inventor of modern fascism.”
In 2000, when cycling through the town of Vize, west of Instanbul, I was hungry and in need of something vegetarian but as I did not speak Turkish had some problems. A young boy called Dennis was brought to me (about 14 years old I guessed) and took me across the road from his father’s cafe where I was able to get some lentil-soup, yoghurt and bread before returning to his father’s cafe for a cup of tea. Dennis was a direct descendant of Ataturk and proudly showed the family-tree in black and white photographs on the wall. My own experience of the Ataturks was positive.
This has been endorsed by a short on-line biography I have just read of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, obviously written by one who approves. It is difficult to see him as a fascist, certainly not in the Mussolini mould. If the biography is true he turned Turkey into a republic, gave voting and educational rights to women together with the right not to have to wear a veil. I am ashamed of some of the things the west does, especially with the abuses of human rights, but I think a republic is preferable to a country of Sultanates, like Oman and Qatar. He was almost certainly a product of the west but how can he be viewed as the inventor of modern fascism?
Sorry, the link:
http://www.biography.com/people/mustafa-kemal-ataturk-20968109
John Goss
“This has been endorsed by a short on-line biography I have just read of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, obviously written by one who approves.”
Honestly, John having enjoyed your comments for many years I cannot believe you are so gullible, and know so little history. From that ludicrous biography you cite, are you honestly telling me you don’t know what his “series of battles with Armenian forces” really was, for example?
I can’t pretend to know much about Turkey. Especially present day day Turkey … only visited Istanbul for a very short time some years ago for work. However, I was struck when there how the ordinary people that I met esteemed Attaturk. I was surprised at the time … it seemed to me that in the memories of people his secular reforms had trumped the military control.
I suppose that’s the story that’s now being sold to we occidentals, secular=good. And, with our lack of knowledge of other societies and tendency to base our world view on on own totally different history and culture we swallow the bait hook, line and sinker much to the unadulterated glee of our political masters.
“The main Kemalist, very right wing Republican People’s Party got 26%. That lot are well to the right of the BNP.
The openly pro-military rule Nationalist Party got 13%.”
I’m not sure right-wing is a useful term for the CHP (actually I don’t think left and right wing are useful terms in general, but I think “right-wing” is particularly inapt in this case). Much (though not all) of the party tends towards hard-line Turkish nationalism, but economically it is to the left of the AKP. Many of its supporters would regard themselves as “left-wing” or social democrats. Also while it is largely intolerant of demands for Kurdish rights for example, it is more sympathetic to Alevi demands than the AKP is; all of the parties are chauvinistic in their own ways, whether on ethnic or religious grounds (or both).
I also don’t think that to describe the MHP as “openly pro-military rule” is accurate. It is an ultra-nationalist party but that doesn’t necessarily make it pro-military. It and the military were closer to being on the same page in the past (especially in the run-up to and the early years following the 1980 coup, when both regarded the left as the main threat) but I don’t think they are now. Though not an Islamist party, it derives much of its support from religiously conservative types, and if I remember correctly it supported the AKP on liberalising the university headscarf laws for example, all of which mean it is not a natural ally of the Kemalist military.
RP
“Much (though not all) of the party tends towards hard-line Turkish nationalism, but economically it is to the left of the AKP. Many of its supporters would regard themselves as “left-wing””
Yes – absolutely the same is true of the BNP, of course. National Socialism, perhaps?
Indigo,
Absolutely right.
“However, I was struck when there how the ordinary people that I met esteemed Attaturk. ”
I would argue that one of the reasons so many Turks hold Ataturk in such extremely high regard is that there is a massive cult of personality surrounding him that is shoved down their throats at school from when they are very young.
Not quite … I spelt Ataturk incorrectly!
1) Is it because a Byzantine church with a cross on it’s dome still stands alone in that square silently and it must overshadowed?.
2) Is replacing the Ataturk cultural centre with something grandiose directed to the “foundation” rather than the facade?.
And finally, what if the muezzin’s amplified voice turns out to be not the best and outlouds the tenor’s across the square?.
Bottom line: If the author knows how to play backgammon he should know that it OK to “roll” dice with fingertips in the corner cafes of the country whereas the game is usually played by rolling them in a cup in the west!!.
@RP
As I said, my knowledge of Turkey is less than sparse but every culture – and it’s dominant political masters – inculcates its/their young with stories of simplified bogeymen and national heroes to serve its/their own nefarious purposes!
Gove’s proposed history syllabus is a case in point!
Well, yes, all massacres (genocides, ethnic cleansings) are terrible. All politicians are lauded whatever their faults. The vast majority of politicians are corrupt. And the evil that men do lives after them. Also the good that they do can oft be interred with their bones. I concede that the history of Turkey is not one of my strengths and in the pub quiz I would probably defer. Ataturk took over from Sultan Hamid so there was already antipathy between the nations. I am not defending Ataturk so much as pointing out the alternative could have been worse even for Armenians. I think most authorities would concede that Turkey has been better since it ceased to be a Sultanate.
It seems Murray can’t get over the black eye Kemal gave the British in the middle east. Churchill gassed the Kurds, Brits used them as tools. Lawrence used Arabs as tools.
One general/leader who outwitted them all was Kemal. By the way, RP should inquire how many Russians venerate Lenin/Stalin, compare it with Kemal’s veneration by ordinary Turks before he talks about things being shoved down throats. Usually this backfires. He is revered by almost all Turks, including most AKP supporters, because he defeated the British proxies, happless Greeks, against all odds. He also showed immense statesmanship afterwards. Try finding another general who was so magnanimious as Ataturk was, vis a vis, the British and ANZAC dead in Gallipoli. Good luck!
<>
Ataturk saw that Turkey could not hold on to Ottoman posessions, other than the historic center of muslim [Turkish/Kurdish] majority. Erdogan’s delusions of grandeur vis a vis Middle East may yet trigger a wider war. By the way, the chief of staff of the Turkish Army resigned in 1992, thus stopping Ozal [another US/British stooge] entering the Iraq war with Bush the elder. So, things are not as black and white as Murray and others may wish when it comes to what the Turkish army stands for. I could talk about the witchhunts Erdogan is conducting against the press, army officers, scientists, intellectuals, just look up the Ergenekon case, and also http://balyozdavasivegercekler.com/ for a good summary in English.
Sorry, my quotes destroyed the formatting. Here’s Kemal Ataturk’s letter to invading army soldiers’ mothers. From the Australian war memorial site.
Those heroes that shed their blood and lost their lives… You are now lying in the soil of a friendly country. Therefore rest in peace. There is no difference between the Johnnies and the Mehmets to us where they lie side by side now here in this country of ours… you, the mothers, who sent their sons from faraway countries wipe away your tears; your sons are now lying in our bosom and are in peace. After having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well.
Great post and great comments. It’s really nice to see so many familiar names posting, I hope they continue posting. Clark if you’re around I hope your doing well. I know next to nothing about Turkey so I can’t add anything really, but I have appreciated reading the conflicting opinions, that is when this blog really shines, debate instead of slinging shit. Craig still making comments so long after first posting, it’s a treat.
All the talk about Ataturk, Mussolini and how they are remembered made me think of a story that always makes me laugh. A good friend of mine was raised by his grandparents who had moved from Italy to Australia just after WW2. When my friend was around 13 he had to give a class presentation on WW2. So he goes home and talks to his grandpa about WW2 and his grandpa’s experiences under Mussolini. His grandpa is a wealth of knowledge and he quickly completes the assignment. So they day comes to give the presentation and my friend gets up in front of the class and starts talking about what a great guy Mussolini was and how he had improved the lives of the poor and modernised the state etc etc. I guess if you were a poor country boy like my friends grandpa was, it’s a pretty reasonable view of Mussolini. Needless to say the presentation went down like a lead balloon and my friend was sent home with a note. It’s a story that makes me laugh but also reminds me that often two completely opposite views can be based on their own truths.
Kodlu,
Wow yes Ataturk, great military genius, conquered the world, greatest thing since Tamerlane, blah blah blah. Thanks for illustrating exactly why dangerous fools like you should never be let anywhere near power and why the anti-Erdogan movement is so dangerous.
Here are some clips from that demo in Glasgow. The AKP has shown itself to be a real and present danger to Turkish society and they are pursuing their internal coup right now, replacing people in civil societal positions, the judiciary, etc. with their own placemen.
It must be countered by civil society rising up and refusing to accede, and to a democratically-elected government recognising that it cannot behave like a junta intent on demolishing democracy from within (democracy is not just about a ballot box; this is common Islamist fantasy). There must NOT be a military coup, otherwise there might an ‘Algerian 1990s’ situation and much else that is terrible.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXP2LNeVq_A
“Erdogan’s delusions of grandeur vis a vis Middle East may yet trigger a wider war.” Kodlu.
Absolutely. I made this point on this blog some time ago. One does not need to be an Ataturk disciple to realise this, btw.
Incidentally, on a historical note, the British got rid of the King of Afghanistan, Amanullah in the 1920s because he was inspired by Ataturk’s secular modernism. So MI6 – I think Lawrence ‘of Arabia’ may have been involved in some way – invented pictures of the Queen’s head with a naked woman’s body beneath and circulated it among the tribesmen. So there is long history of the British ruling class hating independent strongman figures in the Middle East – the first Shah of Iran, Ataturk – from that period, and later, Nasser, for example, not because they were incipiently fascist in orientation and friendly towards Germany, but because they were independent and refused to be colonised. It’s important to look at the context.
This is a slight tangent, but perhaps a relevant one.
Family first. The Turkey I know are very proud they more than anything take care of yhe family especialy looking after, respecting older generations.
Them loosing a green space I presume effects the family directly.
It’s all bollox, fascist, sociolist, liberal crap.
Think on. Our liberal society is de-generated to the filth and poverty, material and spiritual.
When talking to ‘old heads’ and children. A strict, disciiplined, ordered, censored, school is happier and certainly has much less abortions….
Point being: All considerations the liberal way; streamline for desired effect- enjoy outcome. Equals democracy.
“Wow yes Ataturk, great military genius, conquered the world, greatest thing since Tamerlane, blah blah blah”
——-
Hold on a second – he didn’t do that badly against Venizelist Greece, did he. And, despite assiduous courting, the state he founded had the good sense to keep out of WW2.
Having said that, the current Ergodan government is an improvement on (many) of its predecessors.
Am as confused about the current situation in Turkey and the ‘risks’ involved as before the protests started. Appreciate Technicolour’s links (where do you find them?!) re the igniting points and hats off to the handful who stopped the Park being ripped up. Commiseration with the hundreds who are probably seriously ill as a result of the tear gas and other injuries.
Also agree with Habbakuk that the TBA post referred above was perfectly valid. Now you seem to have a good sense of history. But i want to better understand the situation as it is now in the present moment — screw history — can anyone help? All this left-wing-right-wing stuff is all code to me and inadequately nuanced to understand clearly good and bad as in fair and unfair, just and unjust. Hope this thread can find some common ground to provide a focussed perspective.
Helpful advice from Hague.
Political situation
Turkey is a stable democracy. Demonstrations occur regularly in major cities and in Kurdish areas. Taksim Square and Istiklal Street are typical gathering points in Istanbul. Demonstrations can turn violent and the police sometimes use tear gas. You should avoid all demonstrations and to leave the area if one develops.
“he didn’t do that badly against Venizelist Greece, did he. And, despite assiduous courting, the state he founded had the good sense to keep out of WW2.”
Actually under Venizelos, the Anatolian Campaign was successful, but Venizelos lost the election in December 1920; The pro-German King Constantine took personal command of the Army, appointing inexperience monarchists officers to senior commands. This coupled with British insistence for the reckless advance into the interior, but refusal to give any military assistance, in contrast to the Kemal’s forces, who will were receiving ample support from not just the Soviets, but also from France & Italy, which were all important contributing factors to the eventual victory of the Kemal forces.
Turkey actually joined WW2 in the last months on the Allies side, but no Turkish troops saw any action.
So dear Habby-Clown, your statement was rather misleading in many respects, but no change or surprise there.
This week the Greek Consulate in Istanbul was again vandalised:
http://www.newsbomb.gr/ethnika/story/313191/vandalismoi-diadiloton-sto-elliniko-proxeneio-stin-poli-foto
Turkey is not a modern democratic state. It oppresses its people, it oppresses its neighbours. I wish the Western countries that claim to be so could swap location with Greece and Cyprus, (get a year’s sunshine in the deal) and live with the constant fear of a Turkish invasion and the prospect of yet more genocidal ethnic cleansing. This is a trauma every Greek lives with. This state is not interested in peace with its neighbours or peace with its citizens. In the name of Nato’s cohesion and stability this country’s crimes forever go unchecked both internally and externally.
Please take a look at the case of Turkish activist Bulut Yayla. There are grave concerns about his wellbeing after his illegal abduction in Athens this week. He is currently in the anti-terrorism unit in Istanbul.
http://www.enetenglish.gr/?i=news.en.home&id=1096
http://www.enetenglish.gr/?i=news.en.home&id=1102
http://international.radiobubble.gr/2013/06/turkish-kurd-asylum-seeker-abducted-in.html?spref=tw
Thank you
“Battles with Armenian forces” indeed! A new word was coined to describe the massacre of Armenian people in 1915, which was effected using starvation, extermination camps, and other means. That word was “genocide”.
This enormous crime was committed by republican Turkish government forces under Kemal Atarturk.
No decent reason exists for denying this, but all Turkish governments have done so up to the present time, even though many Turkish middle class people and even some politicians and government members have sought to make apologies similar to those written in ‘sorry books’ in Australia with regard to crimes including genocide committed against indigenous people there.
Previous genocidal crimes included the 1770 Bengal famine. That was committed by forces of the British East India Company, a gang of British aristocrats, merchants, and financiers loyal to the British monarchy.
Later, in 1943, monarchist British government and colonial forces were directly involved in causing another famine in Bengal, for which, if I’m not mistaken, no British government has never apologised. The position is unlike what it is for the great famine of 1845-52 in Ireland, for which Tony Blair did issue an apology.
Such apologies are welcome. Reparations would be even more so.
@ Macky :
Don’t be a chump and calm down.
“So dear Habby-Clown, your statement was rather misleading in many respects, but no change or surprise there.”
Why misleading – because the Greek govt changed during the war? If you like, I’ll amend my sentence to read “He didn’t do that badly against {“Venezelist” deleted} Greece, did he?” and hope that makes you happy.
“Turkey actually joined WW2 in the last months on the Allies side, but no Turkish troops saw any action.”
Big deal! No skin off their nose to join in (as some South American countries also did, I believe) a couple of months before the end when the outcome was beyond any doubt.
**********
So, in what respects was my comment misleading?
If you want to give me a kicking you’ll have to do a lot better than that. Go to the back of the class, boy!
******************
La vita è bella, life is good!
“So, in what respects was my comment misleading?”
Sorry I do not waste time engaging with somebody who pretends to “debate”, but offers only fallacious & specious nonsense, that is in the rare occasions when not posting offensive abuse at other Posters; so let’s just say that factual accuracy is neither important or a strong point for Clownish Trolls, whereas sly misrepresentation & cheap sophistry are.
It wasn’t just the Armenians that suffered at the hands of Ataturk. The Ionian Greeks were driven into the sea and Greece lost Smyrna, now Izmir.The burning of Smyrna i
If you visit the villages around Izmir today such as Foca, the old fishermen still speak a bit of Greek and the houses still have Greek letters above them.The whole coastline used to be Greek speaking. There was a massacre on Chios and then Constantinople and Agia Sophia was lost forever.
At the same time, modern Turks are friendly and hospitable and far removed from the young Turks.