To simply say “protestors good, government bad” in Turkey is a symptom of the Blair delusion, that in civil conflicts there are guys with white hats and guys with black hats, and that the West’s role is to ride into town and kill the guys in the black hats. That is what “liberal intervention” means. The main aim of my second autobiographical book, “The Catholic Orangemen of Togo”, was to explain through the truth of the Sierra Leone experience how very, very wrong this is.
In fact civil conflicts are usually horribly complex, anent a variety of very bad people all trying to gain or retain power, none of them from an altruistic desire to make the world a better place. There may be ordinary people on the streets with that altruistic desire, being used and manipulated by these men; but it is not the ordinary altruistic people on the streets who ever come to power. Ever.
In Turkey the heavy crushing of a rainbow of protests in Istanbul has been going on for at least a month now. A week ago I was discussing it with my publisher, whose son lives in the city. A fortnight ago I was in Istanbul myself.
The Turkish people I was with were natural Erdogan supporters, and what struck me very forcibly was the fact that he has sickened many of his own natural allies by the rampant corruption in Turkey at present. Almost everyone I met spoke to me about corruption, and Turkey being Turkey, everyone seemed to know a very great deal of detail about how corruption was organised in various building and development projects and who was getting what. It therefore is hardly surprising that the spark which caused this conflict to flare to a new level was ignited by a corrupt deal to build a shopping centre on a park. The desecration of something lovely for money could be a metaphor for late Erdogan government.
The park is very small beer compared to the massive corruption involved in the appalling and megalomaniac Bosphorus canal project. Everyone talked to me about that one. The mainstream media, who never seem to know what is happening anywhere, seem to have missed that a major cause of the underlying unrest in Istanbul was the government’s announcement eight weeks ago that the Bosphorus canal is going ahead.
People are also incensed by the new proposal that would ban the sale of alcohol within 100 metres of any mosque or holy site, ie anywhere within central Istanbul. That would throw thousands of people out of work, damage the crucial tourist trade and is rightly seen as a symptom of reprehensible mounting religious intolerance that endangers Turkish society.
So there are plenty of legitimate reasons to protest, and the appalling crushing of protest is the best of them
But – and this is what it is never in the interest of Western politicians to understand – Government bad does not equal protestors good. A very high proportion – more than the British public realise by a very long way – of those protesting in the streets are off the scale far right nationalists of a kind that make the BNP look cuddly and Nigel Farage look like Tony Benn. Kemalism – the worship of Ataturk and a very unpleasant form of military dominated nationalism – remains very strong indeed in Istanbul. Ataturk has a very strong claim, ahead of Mussolini, to be viewed as the inventor of modern fascism
For every secular liberal in Istanbul there are two secular ultra-nationalist militarists. To westerners they stress the secular bit and try to hide the rest, and this works on the uncurious (being uncurious is a required attribute to get employed by the mainstream media). Of course there are decent, liberal, environmentalist protestors and the media will have no difficulty, now they have finally noticed something is happening, in filling our screens with beautiful young women who fit that description, to interview. But that is not all of what is going on here.
There certainly was no more freedom in Turkey before the AKP came to power. Government for decades had been either by the Kemalist military in dictatorship or occasionally by civilian governments they tolerated and controlled. People suddenly have short memories if they think protest was generally tolerated pre-Erdogan, and policy towards the Kurds was massively more vicious.
The military elite dominated society and through corruption they dominated commerce and the economy. The interests of a protected and generally fascist urban upper middle class were the only interests that counted at all. The slightest threat to those interests brought a military coup – again, and again, and again. Religion was barely tolerated, and they allied closely with Israel and the United States.
When Erdogan first came to power it was the best thing that had happened to Turkey for decades. The forgotten people of the Anatolian villages, and the lower middle class of the cities, had a voice and a position in the state for the first time. In individual towns and villages, the military and their clients who had exercised absolute authority had their power suddenly diminished. I witnessed this and it was a new dawn, and it felt joyous.
Then of course Erdogan gradually got sucked in to power, to money, to NATO, to the corruption of his Black Sea mafia and to arrogance. It all went very wrong, as it always seems to. That is where we are now.
Yes of course I want those pretty, genuinely liberal environmentalist girls in the park to take power. But they won’t. Look at the hard-eyed fascists behind them. Look at the western politicians licking their lips thinking about the chance to get a nice very right wing, anti-Muslim and pro-Israel government into power.
We should all be concerned at what is happening in Turkey. We should all call for an end to violent repression. But to wish the overthrow of a democratically elected government, and its replacement – by what exactly? – is a very, very foolish reaction.
Good! I never intended my comments to be read by the bastards the likes of you, so far as others go, let hem make their own minds up. Now fuck off and stop ever addressing me you little prick.
Anony, thank you very much for elucidating.
As for so-called ‘far-right ultras’ hating non muslims, as you said and which i would expect and understand. How does that sit with Craig’s remark(?):
“Look at the western politicians licking their lips thinking about the chance to get a nice very right wing, anti-Muslim and pro-Israel government into power.”
???
“Get over it.
You fucking get over it.
==================
No, you lost the opportunity to have a meaningful conversation when you called me an ultra without any evidence.
Don’t tell me, what a great loss? I won’t sleep for a week now!
Alphabet “issue” is frankly comical.
You find this funny? The Europhile Kemal dislocating the whole of the nation, by destroying the heritage of that nation overnight (those who control the past, control the present, and those who control the present control the future), and then sending his “alphabet inspectors” to pick random citizens and test them for their knowledge of the new alphabet with a beating awaiting those citizens whom failed the said test. There is revisionism and then there is down right blind mendacity.”
Wow,beating. Now, THAT’s revisionism. I love it when you guys spaz out.
Calm down and kindly get over it. Unfortunately for your thesis, Kemal had to persuade many to agree to his reforms and presidency before he changed the alphabet. Anyone who wants to look at the past, can learn the old scripture and talk about it. No one is against that. No one destroyed the past. Before the alphabet change, approximately %5 of the people knew how to read and write. No one lost anything. Because most of the people who could read, didn’t read regularly or mostly just literate. We lost the educated masses of the Ottoman empire in the war before the reform. So, not a loss the you theatrically describe.
I like the new alphabet. Get over it. Old alphabet? That’s your issue. And nothing to do with the fact without any evidence you called me an ultra.
Which is both useless and baseless for your own side, and by proxy the ambassador’s..
“They don’t need any help, they are doing just fine on their own.”
As a protester, i say you don’t decide that. Don’t smear the movement.
For the third time? Your concerns were answered and laughed at. Get over it.
Of course, you leave out what they both had to do with their American partners.
Ecevit was too independently minded when it came to dealing with Yugoslavia’s Milosovic, so Bubba buried him with the Izmit earthquake.
Erdogan only learned of Washington’s potential when he too struck out on his own, especially with Israel and the Kurds, only to get buried around Lake Van.
In learning that Washington was more willing to punish troublesome allies rather than alleged enemies like Syria, Erdogan went all out for its agenda, only to learn that he was doing too much, as Kerry is now demonstrating.
Being Washington’s ally is a most difficult task, unless you are someone like Uzbekistan’s Islam Karimov who can always write his own agenda because he has written the book.
Brilliant performance the lately-arrived Fedup! 🙂 Wow, what an intellectual we have amongst us here. Of course others will make up their own minds but i have no difficulty in helping you to help them make up their own minds. Do you know the meaning of ‘of course’? You’re right on course. Carry on.
Unfortunately for you there are oodles of archived footage, interestingly enough with the accompanied commentaries; showing the “alphabet inspectors” going about their appointed duties of testing and dishing out beatings.
This is the crux of it all, for a nation that has been dislocated, after facing the trauma of defeat, then occupation followed by a wholesale destruction of their cultural, and scientific heritage. It should come as no surprise to find the levels of historical illiteracy on display.
However, you maintain:
You have been playing hopscotch and singularly failing to answer the questions put to you. followed by the childish attempts in coercion and bullying; “and laughed at. Get over it”
I reiterate the questions for the fourth time, read these and only answer them, and not in the cock and bull fashion you are so used to.
“Don’t skirt the issue, and answer the questions;
What is the demography of Turkey?
What percentage of the electorate are supporting his (Erdogan) reforms?
What is the relevance of the Ghost of ata Turk to the current Turkey? That man dislocated the whole of the Turkish nation to the extent of ignoring and destroying the wealth of inherited literature by introducing the Latin Alphabet?”
“Anony, thank you very much for elucidating.
As for so-called ‘far-right ultras’ hating non muslims, as you said and which i would expect and understand. How does that sit with Craig’s remark(?):
“Look at the western politicians licking their lips thinking about the chance to get a nice very right wing, anti-Muslim and pro-Israel government into power.”
???”
He is talking about right now, a low numbered, small kind of far right group, who is also nationalistic.But secularist in name only.
They are out numbered by a factor of 2 or 3 by current religious far-right conservatives. Even though they aren’t a real enough threat to be elected as the sole majority or even the main opposition , craig falsely equates them with ultra far-right religious conservatives.
Craig doesn’t know how to read the politics in Turkey, his summary of Erdogan’s early rise to power is proof of that. We suffered due to that kind of non-knowledge types judging Turkey. Turkey isn’t similar to Egypt, that may be the cause of his mistake.
This “anti-muslim” speak is also prevalent in the far-right societies in turkey, they got a guy sympathizing with them from the west. How wonderful! Somehow, those anti muslim guys, always had religious education in public schools!
As for pro-israel comment. I’m not going to talk about current politics because it’s a mess.
The origins of that, is this: Turkey couldn’t buy weapons buy from USA for a period of time. Israel was after the money, Turkey bought from them. Then a rapport was built because of this relationship, it was a frenemy,one would put if seen by us politicians, relationship.
Then Erdogan came to power, he first tried to rent a big piece of property to Israel in Turkey for farming. Wow, see how anti israel he was? He was also for invading Iraq. Also anti-israel! If you believe it.
Opposition which the author smears stopped that.
People conveniently forget these events. Just because Erdogan shouted at an Israeli politician doesn’t mean that Erdogan’s actions doesn’t line up with Israeli interests in the area.
If the ambassador disputes that,I’m open to discussion on the Israel subject,then to summarily prove him wrong.
“Unfortunately for you there are oodles of archived footage, interestingly enough with the accompanied commentaries; showing the “alphabet inspectors” going about their appointed duties of testing and dishing out beatings.”
Show the footage. I would want to see that. Show me source, recite names. Otherwise,be laughed at.
“This is the crux of it all, for a nation that has been dislocated, after facing the trauma of defeat, then occupation followed by a wholesale destruction of their cultural, and scientific heritage. It should come as no surprise to find the levels of historical illiteracy on display.”
Of course, my friend. Now you use the “but we were defeated!” card. Well,does the end point change? No. Either way, you are wrong. People were uneducated so the reform didn’t harm anyone.
And changing of the alphabet so that you can improve literacy was being thought of well before Kemal Ataturk. It’s not like there was no historical basis. A nation before the war considered it, a nation after the war had lost all its ties to the past, had no reason to not do it.
“You have been playing hopscotch and singularly failing to answer the questions put to you. followed by the childish attempts in coercion and bullying; “and laughed at. Get over it””
And who resorted to name calling? smearing? or “emotional pap” talk? Don’t make me laugh.
“I reiterate the questions for the fourth time, read these and only answer them, and not in the cock and bull fashion you are so used to.
“Don’t skirt the issue, and answer the questions;
What is the demography of Turkey?
What percentage of the electorate are supporting his (Erdogan) reforms?
What is the relevance of the Ghost of ata Turk to the current Turkey? That man dislocated the whole of the Turkish nation to the extent of ignoring and destroying the wealth of inherited literature by introducing the Latin Alphabet?””
Alphabet talk is irrelevant. Or would be if you had grown up from these childish fantasies of the far right.
And you have no right to state what I’m used to, Mr. “emotional pap, ultra” guy.
Look the demographics of Turkey up in wikipedia. A general outline even if incomplete.
And here we have the ballot box argument guys. Do you really think the supporters of the gezi park care about what turkey thought 2 years ago? Now we think about our people who died recently, worker rights and gezi park.
And the last question was both answered and laughed at. Sadly for you, get over it.
Fedup, i thought you said “Finally for the third time:” ?? Stick with it! Or we’ll get Habbakuk to give you the Six of his Best 🙂
And then your ” followed by the childish attempts in coercion and bullying; “and laughed at. Get over it” “. Are you playing victim now? Go on Fedup let loose another round of abuse, get it off your chest. After all you are Fedup aren’t you? Fret some more about history and the old alphabet.
@ Aniny (13h30)
“And massacre of greeks. Tell me, did you read about the orders of Ataturk to protect non muslim people in Izmir, otherwise be punished by death? Do you have any evidence of a rule by him or others to kill greeks? Or are you going to blame Ataturk because it’s convenient?”
——–
Well, I was going to keep out of this, but….
Well, someone certainly managed to kill a lot of Greeks in the city of Smyrni and environs; perhaps it was the evil Brits?
Interesting to learn of Ataturk’s orders – would you happen t-o know how many Turks were actually ‘punished by death’ for killing Greek civilians there?
Lastly, regarding the lack of any ‘evidence of a rule by him..to kill Turks’, that reminded me a little of the revisionist historian David Irving, who always makes a big point out of challenging people to find evidence that Hitler ordered/was aware of the Holocaust.
Yout post had deserved the Habbabkuk accolade, viz :
***************
La vita è bella, life is good!
@ Fedup and Villager (above):
You both seem very angry and are insulting each other. Short fuse time!
I bet you wish you were debating with the intelligent and polite trolls called Habbabkuk, Kempe, Resident Dissident and so so rather than with each other, don’t you 🙂
****************
La vita è bella, life is good!
“Well, I was going to keep out of this, but….
Well, someone certainly managed to kill a lot of Greeks in the city of Smyrni and environs; perhaps it was the evil Brits?
Interesting to learn of Ataturk’s orders – would you happen t-o know how many Turks were actually ‘punished by death’ for killing Greek civilians there?
Lastly, regarding the lack of any ‘evidence of a rule by him..to kill Turks’, that reminded me a little of the revisionist historian David Irving, who always makes a big point out of challenging people to find evidence that Hitler ordered/was aware of the Holocaust.
Yout post had deserved the Habbabkuk accolade, viz :”
There are 4 possibilities:
– Armenian nationalists were plotting to burn the houses. Many foreign resources know that there were gas can in the houses.
– When pulling back,greek forces torched the place but didn’t account for the wind.
– Turks did it out of revenge with no political party backing it.
– Ataturk ordered it.
The last option was well thought of in Turkey in the past 10 years. Many who were the mouth of the propaganda to to build up a new identity for Turkish Republic, wrote on it without really providing evidence for it. Because there wasn’t any.
“Interesting to learn of Ataturk’s orders – would you happen t-o know how many Turks were actually ‘punished by death’ for killing Greek civilians there?”
Investigators decided that it was sabotage. And couldn’t find the culprits. But i don’t know if there were singular incident involving greeks who died due to Turkish attacks.
If that is so, Apologies should be issued. But that is no basis to involve Ataturk with Armenian massacre then point it out as if it has relevance to oppose gezi park protesters. This is a logical fallacy.
“Lastly, regarding the lack of any ‘evidence of a rule by him..to kill Turks’, that reminded me a little of the revisionist historian David Irving, who always makes a big point out of challenging people to find evidence that Hitler ordered/was aware of the Holocaust.”
You meant Greeks,I think.
Regarding the godwin’s law,afaik and remind me if I’m wrong, there were Hitler’s orders to put Jews out of their homes and to work. No such order here.
Btw, don’t take it personally and i have no hate or prejudice against Brits, but those “evil brits” did do horrible things to their Turkish Prisoners of War.
So ones living in glass houses,.. you know the saying =)
Habbakuk : “Well, I was going to keep out of this, but….”
For a moment i though you were going to blame me. Perhaps you did but then stopped short? 😉
As for keeping out of anything, when did you start becoming all shy?
And the ” the Habbabkuk accolade”! I like that Habba; give it to you for your sense of humour 🙂
Now don’t get too lost in history, what do you make of what’s going on there in Turkey.
I think its refreshing that you have a substantially Muslim state with a deep culture, a modern vibrant youth in a country that doesn’t have Islam as its state religion. Laudable in this day and age! That simple.
Finally commiserate with the injured in the protests — that tear gas stuff should be reclassified as chemical weapons imo.
@ Habbabkuk (La Vita È Bella!)
What is your motivation to write here? Are you happy because innocent people are killed or touchered by their government?
Do you think this generation is guilty because of the incidents, 100 or 30 years ago happened?
why are you arguing about races? Whay can’t you see people do not hate, kill each other, but the governments do.
You talk about Turks, Greeks, Armanian, then you call the protestors as fascist Kemalists. Who are the fascist here?
Come on, accept this genoicides are made by the governments not by people.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151441734162742
@Anony, some other views;
http://san-francisco-bay-area-humanists.blogspot.co.uk/2011/01/ataturk-was-secular-nationalist-who.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/may/23/paradise-lost-smyrna-giles-milton
http://www.ahiworld.com/media-center/press-releases/2002/471-ahi-commemorates-the-80th-anniversary-of-the-destruction-of-smyrna-by-ataturk.html
Oske
I do not blame today’s Turks for the massacres of Armenians, Greeks and others under Ataturk. Those that nonetheless still identify themselves with Ataturk I distrust profoundly. Those who write that the Armenians were killed by canisters of gas they had stored in their homes, just as those who write that Ataturk did not want to be President but was pushed into it “By the heart of the Turkish people” I find distinctly scarey. I am however grateful to them for indisputably proving my point about how wary we have to be of a very great many of the “secularists” whom the Western media are promoting and for which much of the western left are falling hook line and sinker.
“I do not blame today’s Turks for the massacres of Armenians, Greeks and others under Ataturk. Those that nonetheless still identify themselves with Ataturk I distrust profoundly. Those who write that the Armenians were killed by canisters of gas they had stored in their homes, just as those who write that Ataturk did not want to be President but was pushed into it “By the heart of the Turkish people” I find distinctly scarey. I am however grateful to them for indisputably proving my point about how wary we have to be of a very great many of the “secularists” whom the Western media are promoting and for which much of the western left are falling hook line and sinker.”
You are weird. And dishonest. Then why don’t you just delete all my comments? Wow. Why go to the trouble of twisting my arguments, blatantly lying about them?
I didn’t say armenians were killed by the canisters they stored in their homes. My point was describing Izmir fire not armenian massacre.It was a plot which was discovered.
Armenians in the east, were killed by the actions and inactions of the central government. In ottoman empire era, during the world war 1. Not during Greco-Turkish war.
I read about the plot to torch Izmir in Lord Kinross- Rebirth of a Nation – Ataturk. Look it up. It had nothing to do with Armenian massacres. Did you actually read all of my posts? Just one?
Wow, i still can’t believe it, you just proved all my points by trying to snipe just one piece of one argument which had nothing to do with it.
I have seen many intellectually honest blog writers who did it as a hobby.
For shame. You are really cut from the same cloth from all these politicians.
There you go again; “be laughed at”
The onus is not on me, to “show” you the footage! You want to see it; you go and find it (now that you know it exists), it will be good for you, and will help you to overcome your historical illiteracy, that is so prevalent among the Turkish nationalists.
Don’t you find this line of thought so obtuse and redundant? What about the future generations, how could they find out about their own history? Their own culture?
Ah but I forget, “anyone is free to go and learn the scriptures”! Although meanwhile the history taught in Turkey is more of a fanciful bunch of stories than elsewhere.
You have only reiterated the proposition put to you; dislocation of a nations imperatives, and sensibilities through wholesale vandalism of its cultural and scientific heritage.
Oh my, you are laughing again (lame attempt in bullying)! Slap my thigh Mr. Darcy I declare I am bilious; smelling salts please. “Name calling” you have led a sheltered life, have you not?
So far as an obtuse outlook goes; certainly!
However, to the more enlightened it is a glimpse to the authoritarian regime of a man who hated his own and Turks’ imperatives and sensibilities and set about systematically disassembling these. Turks did not need enemies to come and destroy their cultural and scientific heritage as US has done in Iraq, and ziofuckwits do in Palestine. Mustafa Kemal was there to do the job even much more comprehensively than the enemies of the Turks. Surprisingly the Turkish nation reeling from the post traumatic disorder came to prove the Stockholm syndromes validity, by devoutly worshipping Kemal.
Clearly you are aware of the implications of the question put to you, and the reticence to admit the pupating shades of opinion, that is gradually gaining distance from the habitual worship of ata Turk.
The latter points forwarded are confirmed by this statement; continuation of “martial law” regardless of the aspirations, beliefs and imperatives of the majority of the people.
So far as your “laughing” goes, have you ever asked yourself why certain fuckwits on this board are for ever pouring scorn on all things Muslim?
Clearly you are not going to answer the questions put to you, after all, so go ahead and “laugh” some more, cuz so far as you are concerned; ignorance is bliss, isn’t it?
PS why should I get over it? Do you think I am Turkish? I know the other fuckwit and its hive imperatives, compel it to hate Islam. Thus its futile attempts to forever hang onto the tired, irrelevant, and defunct notions of “Caliphate”, however I cannot make out as to what is your beef?
Craig,
why is being secular so bad and evil? I couln’t call myself as a fan of Ataturk, I am more inclined to accept the history as it is. I won’t argue about Ataturk and his acts&revolution with anyone, because my concern is not about Ataturk and his so-called dictatorship which was 80 years ago. My concern is the dictator of today because my friends are dying because of Erdogan right now. As far as I know, 3 people died, 3 people lost their eyes, a young boy lost his testicles, and none of them was accident. Police intentionally aims people’s head and men’s genitals when they are firing gas bombs. Police is trying to hurt protestors not to stop them. And our Prime minister didn’t deign to warn police about the excessive use of power. Instead, he left country. He is in Morocco now. And he shows no mercy to protestors just because they are opponents.
My concern is my people’s safety, our freedom of speech, our civil/constutional rights. I just kindly request you to respect the lives of people in Turkey, and focus the problem we have today. Because people are dying or being tortured at this very moment.
Do you think the censorship, police brutality could be an act of democracy?
I shared many videos to show this movement is not about religion or politics. If you really want to see, you may see muslims, christians, Kurdish, Turkish, leftists, nationalists, feminists, gays, union labors, artists, students standing side by side for their freedom of speech. I shared many links above.
“The onus is not on me, to “show” you the footage! You want to see it; you go and find it (now that you know it exists), it will be good for you, and will help you to overcome your historical illiteracy, that is so prevalent among the Turkish nationalists.”
Really? Then give names,references. Link to it. You are the one coming up with it. I’m not going to prove your point for you. Either name it or be judged as irrelevant.
“Don’t you find this line of thought so obtuse and redundant? What about the future generations, how could they find out about their own history? Their own culture?
Ah but I forget, “anyone is free to go and learn the scriptures”! Although meanwhile the history taught in Turkey is more of a fanciful bunch of stories than elsewhere.”
I find your point of view irrelevant. Back up your arguments, don’t reiterate the same ones. Many people can learn their culture by translation. Or learn the old scripture.
I don’t care what you think of history taught in schools, it changes every year. The point is you have the opportunity to learn it. And i learned some of it. The scripture change was thought of long before Ataturk did it.
“You have only reiterated the proposition put to you; dislocation of a nations imperatives, and sensibilities through wholesale vandalism of its cultural and scientific heritage.”
Then ottoman empire should have better public education =) Otherwise, it wouldn’t be so easy to change things. Face it, by the war’s end, the empire collapsed in every shape or form.
You don’t decide a nation’s imperatives,nor did the Sultan. As evidenced by our disagreement.
“Oh my, you are laughing again (lame attempt in bullying)! Slap my thigh Mr. Darcy I declare I am bilious; smelling salts please. “Name calling” you have led a sheltered life, have you not?
Whatever you say buddy.
“However, to the more enlightened it is a glimpse to the authoritarian regime of a man who hated his own and Turks’ imperatives and sensibilities and set about systematically disassembling these. Turks did not need enemies to come and destroy their cultural and scientific heritage as US has done in Iraq, and ziofuckwits do in Palestine. Mustafa Kemal was there to do the job even much more comprehensively than the enemies of the Turks. Surprisingly the Turkish nation reeling from the post traumatic disorder came to prove the Stockholm syndromes validity, by devoutly worshipping Kemal.”
This isn’t even worhty of answer. You are delusional. Yeah,yeah Kemal did the job for the forces he fought against. Wow.
“Clearly you are aware of the implications of the question put to you, and the reticence to admit the pupating shades of opinion, that is gradually gaining distance from the habitual worship of ata Turk.”
No,it was to get you a step to say what you want to say. And you did. And it had nothing to do with the subject. Gezi park and smearing of them by the author.
Clearly, you have no idea to prove yourself right.
“The latter points forwarded are confirmed by this statement; continuation of “martial law” regardless of the aspirations, beliefs and imperatives of the majority of the people.”
I said no such thing. And i have no such wants or claims. You are lying. Don’t be intellectually dishonest.
“So far as your “laughing” goes, have you ever asked yourself why certain fuckwits on this board are for ever pouring scorn on all things Muslim?”
I didn’t even read all the comments. Why am i responsible for all the written comments here?
“Clearly you are not going to answer the questions put to you, after all, so go ahead and “laugh” some more, cuz so far as you are concerned; ignorance is bliss, isn’t it?”
That’s rich. Considering, you didn’t even reference a source for your claims. Arrogance.
“PS why should I get over it? Do you think I am Turkish? I know the other fuckwit and its hive imperatives, compel it to hate Islam. Thus its futile attempts to forever hang onto the tired, irrelevant, and defunct notions of “Caliphate”, however I cannot make out as to what is your beef?”
So, you are for the Caliphate? Why should i care if you want caliphacy or not? What does that have to do with our argument? I don’t care if you are Turkish or not. You arguments are lacking.
You can’t even name a source? Now you want me to defend another comment?
Wow.
@Oske:
The guy is twisting what’s written 2 minutes ago, do you really think he will give you an answer that has anything to do with the truth?
This was a “Let’s help out akp, because i don’t like their opposition.” piece. Nothing more nothing less.
@Anony
you may be right. I replied Habbabkuk (La Vita È Bella!)’s comment but I couldn’t see any response from him yet. I live in abroad not in Turkey, Craig mentioned about “alturism”. Let me talk about about alturism, I slept only 12 hours in last six days, I can eat once a day, because I feel so guilty, when I see those people injured or dead. And our fiends who are abroad also feel in same way.
The only tool, I can use for resistance is internet. And I will not give up, because my friends are breathing pepper gas&tear gas in every single minute in Izmir, Istanbul, Ankara, Adana, Hatay. As long as they fight for our fredoom of speech, I won’t sleep I won’t eat. I will do my best to show facts about this movement. I will resist against malevolent or benevolent disinformation efforts. My humble opinion is that you should do the same. Do not forget,
Her yer Taksim, her yer direniş.
Don’t worry,my friend. I inhaled a healthy amount of pepper spray too. It really helps your lungs : ) I will go for another dose tomorrow or the day after.
Her yer Taksim, Her yer Direniş.
Fedup
4 Jun, 2013 – 7:01 pm
“So far as your “laughing” goes, have you ever asked yourself why certain fuckwits on this board are for ever pouring scorn on all things Muslim?”
And the answer? Relevance?
Observe, the prosaic commenter cannot finish a single post without using the F-word. How forcefully convincing!
Hey, craig:
“Ideology Fascism[1][2][3]”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_and_Development_Party_(Turkey)
@ Anony :
“Btw, don’t take it personally and i have no hate or prejudice against Brits,…”
——-
By saying that you suppose I’m British. But if you’re a regular reader of this blog you should know that some think I’m based in Jerusalem and paid in shekels..
Who am I, indeed? You’d be surprised…but I’m not going to tell you.
@ Villager :
“As for keeping out of anything, when did you start becoming all shy?”
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Never. We have crossed swords often enough for you to know that in addition to possessing impressive intellectual fire-power and superb critical faculties I am also quite fearless.
“By saying that you suppose I’m British. But if you’re a regular reader of this blog you should know that some think I’m based in Jerusalem and paid in shekels..
Who am I, indeed? You’d be surprised…but I’m not going to tell you.”
I’m not a regular reader. I just showed up to see what was cooked up about the gezi parkı movement.
If this author is going to be this much of a dishonest person, i don’t see much reason to hang around.
I’m still laughing at how he twisted my words, and took them out of context.
@ Oske :
“What is your motivation to write here? Are you happy because innocent people are killed or touchered by their government?”
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It would be better if you didn’t ask the first question. Answer to the second question : no. What lakes you think this makes me happy?
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“Do you think this generation is guilty because of the incidents, 100 or 30 years ago happened?”
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In general, no. But I would note that many of those involved in the events of 30 years ago are still around.
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“why are you arguing about races? Whay can’t you see people do not hate, kill each other, but the governments do.”
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Was I so arguing?
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“You talk about Turks, Greeks, Armanian, then you call the protestors as fascist Kemalists. Who are the fascist here?”
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I don’t think I said anything about the Armenians, nor did I call the protesters fascist Kemalists (or anything else for that matter). You must be confusing me with someone else.