To simply say “protestors good, government bad” in Turkey is a symptom of the Blair delusion, that in civil conflicts there are guys with white hats and guys with black hats, and that the West’s role is to ride into town and kill the guys in the black hats. That is what “liberal intervention” means. The main aim of my second autobiographical book, “The Catholic Orangemen of Togo”, was to explain through the truth of the Sierra Leone experience how very, very wrong this is.
In fact civil conflicts are usually horribly complex, anent a variety of very bad people all trying to gain or retain power, none of them from an altruistic desire to make the world a better place. There may be ordinary people on the streets with that altruistic desire, being used and manipulated by these men; but it is not the ordinary altruistic people on the streets who ever come to power. Ever.
In Turkey the heavy crushing of a rainbow of protests in Istanbul has been going on for at least a month now. A week ago I was discussing it with my publisher, whose son lives in the city. A fortnight ago I was in Istanbul myself.
The Turkish people I was with were natural Erdogan supporters, and what struck me very forcibly was the fact that he has sickened many of his own natural allies by the rampant corruption in Turkey at present. Almost everyone I met spoke to me about corruption, and Turkey being Turkey, everyone seemed to know a very great deal of detail about how corruption was organised in various building and development projects and who was getting what. It therefore is hardly surprising that the spark which caused this conflict to flare to a new level was ignited by a corrupt deal to build a shopping centre on a park. The desecration of something lovely for money could be a metaphor for late Erdogan government.
The park is very small beer compared to the massive corruption involved in the appalling and megalomaniac Bosphorus canal project. Everyone talked to me about that one. The mainstream media, who never seem to know what is happening anywhere, seem to have missed that a major cause of the underlying unrest in Istanbul was the government’s announcement eight weeks ago that the Bosphorus canal is going ahead.
People are also incensed by the new proposal that would ban the sale of alcohol within 100 metres of any mosque or holy site, ie anywhere within central Istanbul. That would throw thousands of people out of work, damage the crucial tourist trade and is rightly seen as a symptom of reprehensible mounting religious intolerance that endangers Turkish society.
So there are plenty of legitimate reasons to protest, and the appalling crushing of protest is the best of them
But – and this is what it is never in the interest of Western politicians to understand – Government bad does not equal protestors good. A very high proportion – more than the British public realise by a very long way – of those protesting in the streets are off the scale far right nationalists of a kind that make the BNP look cuddly and Nigel Farage look like Tony Benn. Kemalism – the worship of Ataturk and a very unpleasant form of military dominated nationalism – remains very strong indeed in Istanbul. Ataturk has a very strong claim, ahead of Mussolini, to be viewed as the inventor of modern fascism
For every secular liberal in Istanbul there are two secular ultra-nationalist militarists. To westerners they stress the secular bit and try to hide the rest, and this works on the uncurious (being uncurious is a required attribute to get employed by the mainstream media). Of course there are decent, liberal, environmentalist protestors and the media will have no difficulty, now they have finally noticed something is happening, in filling our screens with beautiful young women who fit that description, to interview. But that is not all of what is going on here.
There certainly was no more freedom in Turkey before the AKP came to power. Government for decades had been either by the Kemalist military in dictatorship or occasionally by civilian governments they tolerated and controlled. People suddenly have short memories if they think protest was generally tolerated pre-Erdogan, and policy towards the Kurds was massively more vicious.
The military elite dominated society and through corruption they dominated commerce and the economy. The interests of a protected and generally fascist urban upper middle class were the only interests that counted at all. The slightest threat to those interests brought a military coup – again, and again, and again. Religion was barely tolerated, and they allied closely with Israel and the United States.
When Erdogan first came to power it was the best thing that had happened to Turkey for decades. The forgotten people of the Anatolian villages, and the lower middle class of the cities, had a voice and a position in the state for the first time. In individual towns and villages, the military and their clients who had exercised absolute authority had their power suddenly diminished. I witnessed this and it was a new dawn, and it felt joyous.
Then of course Erdogan gradually got sucked in to power, to money, to NATO, to the corruption of his Black Sea mafia and to arrogance. It all went very wrong, as it always seems to. That is where we are now.
Yes of course I want those pretty, genuinely liberal environmentalist girls in the park to take power. But they won’t. Look at the hard-eyed fascists behind them. Look at the western politicians licking their lips thinking about the chance to get a nice very right wing, anti-Muslim and pro-Israel government into power.
We should all be concerned at what is happening in Turkey. We should all call for an end to violent repression. But to wish the overthrow of a democratically elected government, and its replacement – by what exactly? – is a very, very foolish reaction.
Komodo, please re-read my Post, as my qualifier was this;
“If this is in support of Anony’s contention that Kemal Ataturk had no responsibility for the ethnic cleansing of Armenians”
I simply objected to the notion that Ataturk had no Armenian blood on his hands at all; I was not linking him directly with the events of 1915/16 etc; and if you had read the first link of my last Post, you would have found reference to forces under his command committing the mass murders of Armenians from the city of Marash in January 1920, and again a repeat for the Armenians of Hajen (Hadjin) in October 1920. Regarding Smyrna, the first acts of Kemalist officers shortly after their entry into the city, was to go to the Armenian Quarter, & stand outside with crowds of local Turks, who had provided the names of all the Armenians of particular households, then to call out each person’s name to come out & present themselves on threat of the house being set alight, and once all the family members had assembled on their doorsteps, they were shot dead, and in view of later atrocities, these were in fact the lucky ones.
Regarding those Young Turks who were actually involved in the 1915 Genocide, Ataturk eventually openly embraced & recruited many into official Government positions. (see enotes link).
@Anony
“If Ataturk and the government then, was responsible, then there should be official apologies for that.”
Unfortunately Ataturk was only different to both the Young Turks & some of the bloodier Sultans, in the sense that he made Turkish Chauvinism a patriotic duty for all Turks; those before him had used religion to unite & motivate, but Ataturk used the equally dangerous dogma of Nationalism instead. To achieve his ethnically homogeneous nation-state, there was to be no room in Kemalist Turkey for the Christian minorities, and even for fellow non-Turkic Muslims, as Kurds officially did not exist, everything Kurdish was outlawed, and instead they were referred to as “Mountain Turks”. His forced “Turkification” of everybody effectively meant that only “Turks” could live in Turkey. Kemalism is a racist ideology that lead/leads directly to ethnic cleansing & mass killings, and Criag is right in that it is inherently fascist by definition. (see Perry Anderson link for a detailed exploration of Kemalism).
@ Macky
Are you trying to say that Ataurk was so so bad, that’s why those young protestors deserve this police brutality & media censorship & all kind of supression?
Are you trying to say that new generation in Turkey do not deserve to live in a free & peaceful country because 90 years ago their grand grand fathers probably killed someone?
@Komodo @Anony
tahriklere kapılmayalım 😉
The massacres and flight of Armenians from Cilicia in 1921-2 happened as a result of actions of the Kemalist forces.
When Turkey annexed Hatay/Sanjak/Alexandretta in 1939, once again there was a flight of Armenians.
@Oske,
“Are you trying to say that Ataurk was so so bad, that’s why those young protestors deserve this police brutality & media censorship & all kind of supression?”
No, of course not.
“Are you trying to say that new generation in Turkey do not deserve to live in a free & peaceful country because 90 years ago their grand grand fathers probably killed someone?”
No, of course not, but if the people posting here in support of, & even saying that they are part of the present protests, and complain about the faults of Erdogan, yet refuse to acknowledge, or insist on white-washing the crimes of Kemalism, then they will never really find the freedom & peace you say they seek.
@Lysias, @ Macky
Why don’t you ask yourself to the Armenians living in Turkey? Here is a link of the Armenian newspaper is being published in Turkey.
Armanians are resisting with us side by side in this movement. Because this is not about history. this is about being human, this is about democracy.
http://www.agos.com.tr/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrant_Dink
“this is about being human, this is about democracy.”
A bit hard to reconcile if you are also white-washing genocide & racist ideology by being a devotee of the Cult of Ataturk.
@ Macky
I got your point. And I know all minorities in Anatolia suffered because of the governments’ supression. It was the same since 16th century as fas as I know. And I am still suffering because of the governments’ stereotyping efforts. And today we are resisting against it despite of all kind of supression and brutality.
I just want to say that today we are looking our similarites, not our differences, and believe me Kemalists are not in charge in this movement. We are saying “enough”, and every diferent group has something to say for its name. Every different group has its own discomfort with this government. That’s why today socialists and nationalists, kemalists and muslims, gays & conservatives, are standing side by side.
From now on, all politician will learn to speak and act in a peaceful and tolerant manner. One of the most important issues we have is “intolerance”.
I request your 25 minutes to listen this speech, she describes the today’s government and its similarities with the previous kemalism. She is talking in a Kurdish organization, so she is not a Kemalists 😉
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4uOvHW9UvU
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuray_mert
@ Macky
It is a kind of disappointment to hear that you don’t evaluate the ideas’ appropriateness without looking at whose ideas they are. Then you call people as fascist, but you have huge bias. Please remember even a broken watch could show the exact time twice a day.
If you do not want to see, you may not. I say nothing about your debates on all your argues on Armanians Greeks and Ataurk stuffs. Because it is endless. Both sides can provide lots of sources.
So you say again, “if you are a Kemalist, I do not care about whether you are suffering & being tortured.” Then you call people as fascist.
I am not a Kemalist. I’ve never been. Also, I never insult someone because of his/her political as you do. Today, I am fighting against insulting people because of their political/religious views, literally fighting.
Police left Taksim to the protestors. But there are still violence in other parts of Istanbul, Izmir, Ankara, Hatay, Tunceli.
I know you guys, who are obsessive about Kemalism and Ataturk, will not deign to read this. Just in case, I am sharing it. May be you can find a British observer more reliable.
https://www.facebook.com/TimBright.OneWorldConsulting/posts/10151698042274434
“Komodo
5 Jun, 2013 – 2:45 pm
Please avoid Craig’s traps. He is bluring the reality of today by engulfing you in a debate about history. People who read this blog will choose a side if you discuss here.
Point well taken. It’s about “where do we go from here?” not how we got here. I don’t want to confuse the issue, and will shut up.”
Komodo, thank you for your timely interjection there — i bow to your superior knowledge. And further, this sane comment of yours: “Point well taken. It’s about “where do we go from here?” not how we got here.”
Macky
6 Jun, 2013 – 12:29 am
Oske: “this is about being human, this is about democracy.”
“A bit hard to reconcile if you are also white-washing genocide & racist ideology by being a devotee of the Cult of Ataturk.”
Macky, can you point out precisely which “you” was doing the alleged white-washing here?
AND
in your ““If this is in support of Anony’s contention that Kemal Ataturk had no responsibility for the ethnic cleansing of Armenians”, i have been following this thread closely and may have missed as you call it “Anony’s contention”. Could you highlight that contention for us also please?
The front page piece in the Guardian already reads like this is history. It is not. It is happening. Another post from the square:
“so many people so much diversity. So many activities co-existing happily. So much amazing organization and cooperation and proof of the abilities of self-managing teams.
well stocked first aid centres, a library, films being projected, tv channels being shown, slide shows too. Artists at work, people dancing, playing games, reading, playing music, singing, chanting, standing to sing the national anthem.
…
communists protecting people praying, people selling food, people giving food away. Every political group you’ve ever heard of (except one) and plenty you never have. Anti GM food groups, gay groups, Kurdish groups, students, parents, people planting vegetables and people just being here.
lots of tents, impromptu streets set up in the park, camp fires, musicians, smartphones and tablets, books and newspapers.
and all this peacefully, happily co-existing in a small park and a big square.
as I said it’s very hard to describe. The more I write the less I seem to capture it. It reminds me of the peace movement of the 80s, of Glastonbury festival but without the mud and the drugs.
and let’s not forget that while here there is a festival atmosphere the tear gas and Twitter arrests are not far away today in Ankara, Izmir and elsewhere.
it’s hard to describe but incredibly positive and inspiring. If you are a long way away please send your thoughts and support.
if you are close come and experience it and join in yourself. To quote Rumi, “Come, come again, whoever you are, come!””
Oske:
lol…
veya
ysg?…
sessizim.
So he built a nation state. We are gonna judge that now to somehow evaluate today’s political campaign? In any nation building there can be faults which should be addressed. But to somehow condemn all of the ideology because it was nationalism built in it,is false. Because at the time world was in the late age of nation states, Ottoman empire dissolving to give way to them is an example of that.
Many govenment officials of the turkish republic in 30s, issued fake passports to save jewish refugees and provided a place to stay for the jewish-german scientists to stay during Hitler’s hate and genocide campaign.
There was no room for christian minorities? But somehow!, those minorites had representatives in the grand assembly. They had the right to be elected as a government representative but also had no part in the new Turkey? Not a convenient truth,huh?
Kemal was so bad(!), he was appointed by Venizelos who was the head of the campaign for conquest of Turkey, to be given a Nobel peace prize. I don’t care about Nobel prizes but I’m sure you can appreciate the sentiment behind it.
Spare me your ideological traps. Don’t talk with half truths. It was obvious when you linked to a guy who droned about Kemal being bolshevik,proto-fascist on and on. Being both a fascist and a bolshevik is an oxymoron.
The issue for Kurdish rights can always be talked about but I’m not here to see you use that to judge all of Turkish republic’s past. The essay of Anderson’s is filled with sentences on how Ataturk was different than Mussolini,Stalin or Mao while trying to make him stick with those guys. It talked about how Kemal gave rights to women but in a nation of low literacy women didn’t use that rights.I’m aware of whats written there and it wasn’t even closely a fair assessment of the regime in 2008 and it isn’t now.
It’s a not often seen kind of “oriental” look on Turkey. Which can claim that EU is the only way for somehow Turkey to prosper.It’s an article filled with inconsistencies about Ataturk’s point of view. And should be counted just as a work on trying to mix Ataturk with his contemporaries who is viewed negatively today. Just a piece of work which tries to look through a different point of view than anything to be taken seriously.
Clearly, you read all the anti – Ataturk propaganda you can get your hands on and are proud to display that knowledge but we are here to talk about the movement in gezi park.
Can i see a source for that? Because war crimes were often made up propaganda many a allied forces member in the west, regularly used. Even though,sometimes it was plainly made up.
The flight of some Armenians was due to their fighting as irregulars against the grand assembly forces of Ankara. The ones who were innocent in all this, and were involved with no parties also suffered and like any person I’m sorry for that.
Even you yourself can’t claim he was involved with genocide and now you are talking about white-washing,cults,racism? Dial back the hate to be taken seriously.
Macky is talking about how i pointed out that there were biased or false accounts on what happened in Izmir fire. Kemal had no business in ethnic cleansing of armenians in the east. But many of the propagandists use the Izmir fire as a counter case. Macky is referring to that.
I’m repeating again, this is about gezi park and government’s growing ambition to tell people to how much of a drink is appropriate or whether people should hug in public.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=8HkFAwrb8cY#!
Plastic bullets used by the police.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?f&v=t9gsTr0BcOU
The police force suddenly deciding without any real warning to disperse the crowd.
Technicolour, you are right, this is just the beginning i sense. BREAKING NEWS
“6 June 2013 Last updated at 13:55
Istanbul Gezi Park plan to proceed – Turkish PM Erdogan
Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has said plans to redevelop a park in Istanbul will go ahead despite mass protests now in their seventh day.
He made the remarks during a visit to Tunis. He is to return to Turkey, cutting short a North African tour.”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22801548
And two days ago i saw their President Gul on CNN, sounding conciliatory, declare that there had never been plans to redevelop the Park.
Erdogan seems like the combative type. The protestors aren’t going to give up easily either. Doesn’t bode well for Turkey.
Oh, news report on RT quotes Erdogan as saying that the protestors should be ‘hung from the trees’. Let’s talk some more about fascism.
Villager, I said it here before. He doesn’t stop, he never stops. He sees it as a personal challenge.
May be i have it wrong and wasn’t Gul, but this guy:
“AMANPOUR: Mevlut Cavusoglu, thank you so much for joining me, founder, member of the ruling Freedom and Justice Party (sic). You have said that the mall will not be built and you have also said that the prime minister wants an investigation into what you call the excessive use of force on those first days. So hopefully that will happen.”
http://amanpour.blogs.cnn.com/2013/06/03/exclusive-turkish-politician-claims-mall-was-ever-planned/
http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1306/03/ampr.01.html
Though i still feel i heard Gul say the same thing.
Both Gul and Cavusoglu just want to calm down the streets. By saying whatever they can. The mall was planned. Erdogan still wants to build it.
That guy on Amanpour lied nonstop. We laughed at his audacity for twisting the issue.
Anony, one can only admire the sense of camaraderie outlined in Technicolour’s post above. Equally one can sense the frustration at Erdogan’s arrogance and combative style.
Re-reading Craig’s post, i have a question:
” For every secular liberal in Istanbul there are two secular ultra-nationalist militarists. To westerners they stress the secular bit and try to hide the rest, and this works on the uncurious (being uncurious is a required attribute to get employed by the mainstream media). Of course there are decent, liberal, environmentalist protestors and the media will have no difficulty, now they have finally noticed something is happening, in filling our screens with beautiful young women who fit that description, to interview. But that is not all of what is going on here.”
Who are these ” secular ultra-nationalist militarists ” that he’s referring to?
And, what could he mean when he concludes ” But that is not all of what is going on here.” And again who are these “hard-eyed fascists behind them.”?
And yes when are the next elections?
Can you give us a balanced view of what is going on on the ground please?
——
PS Three people have died, presumably because of police brutality. I’m surprised there’s so little concern here by regular visitors to this blog. Perhaps they don’t really understand the situation or perhaps its too far from Scotland or not as important as Palestine. But i’ll repeat, Turkey as a near-total Muslim population and a secular democratic state and a fun yet deep culture is inspiring, especially so in this day and age. Good luck with more freedoms.
There has been a shame of a trial going on in Turkey. Many people were arrested for “trying to bring down the legitimately elected government.” through a military coup.
When you look at the case,the lies and conduct of the judge and the prosecution is mind boggling. The “evidence” is either made up or falsely collected. Even the police admitted as such in some instances!
Many people have been against that vocally and favor the “secular” stance of the military. Craig is just repeating what Erdogan’s pr people is speaking.
Right now, there are many groups in Taksim. Anticapitalist Islamists,Greywolves(Turkic-Islamic nationalist union fans), Turkish nationalist(some of them kemalists),leftists(some of them kemalists),communists with their many fractions, lgbt,artists,Kurdish nationalists.. On and on.
Notice how i mentioned kemalists in 2 seperate issues. Because there are different stances on different issues among kemalists. For example, some of them are sympathetic to Kurdish nationalism, some of them not.
Anyway, most likely Craig was talking about nationalist Kemalists (because he is inclined to see them that way as evidenced by his biased comments.) or grey wolves or maybe anti capitalist islamists. Though i doubt he means islamists, because one is in power and craig wrote this peace to defend him.
There are local elections in 2014 and general elections in 2015.
People are still getting brutalized by the police.
At least “FedUp” finally shut up. He wanted me to discuss caliphate with him at this age and time. Really nice, sympathizers you got there,Craig.
Turks Angry Over Dearth of Protest Coverage by Established Media — NYT
This bit surprised me:
” For a country with democratic elections, Turkey has a robust tradition of suppressing free speech, on the Internet and in the mainstream media. A World Press Freedom Index published by Reporters Without Borders, an advocacy group based in Paris, ranks Turkey a lowly 154th among 179 nations.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/07/world/middleeast/turks-angry-over-dearth-of-protest-coverage-by-established-media.html?pagewanted=1&_r=0
If you report the facts, you are out of a job.
The reporters used to have a saying; “the one who touches (the truth),burns.” Well,the one who said it as a joke, tried to publish a book on the corruption of the police; his book was confiscated in the printing press stage, he got thrown in jail for “being for the coup”.And he hated the military actually.
There are about 100 journalists in the jail. Usually when journalists report the truth they get fired. Erdogan himself said, every boss of a magazine or newspaper is responsible for his own staff. That the editors should regulate what’s written by journalists.
During the first 3-4 days of the protest which was joined by hundreds of thounsands of people across Turkey, the news channels couldn’t report the news. They showed documentaries on penguins instead.
Turkey as a near-total Muslim population and a secular democratic state and a fun yet deep culture is inspiring, especially so in this day and age. Good luck with more freedoms.
Agreed. One thing the protests demonstrate is a strong sense of grassroots solidarity, which I wish existed in the UK. Turks are proud of their country, and will defend its values.
Am I right in seeing a problem ahead for Erdoğan? If the protest grows any more, his traditional response would be to declare martial law (Turkey’s democracy is still young and vulnerable). But he’s intentionally alienated the army, which, given Erdoğan’s drift to religion, could very well backfire, leaving the army as the self-proclaimed saviours of the state, and in charge again.
Also, the media here are suggesting that Erdoğan is making life difficult for the Alevi/Shi’a minority – is this true? Has he been seduced into a position with the West against Iran?
Not really, they have been asleep for the last 30 years.
Erdogan is lucky and has mind share in the west. He would probably declare martial law depending on police not the military.
His alienation of the army and the “trials” have crippled the army. They wouldn’t side with him but they wouldn’t side against him.
He recently named the (not wanted by the environmentalists) third bridge after a sultan who killed tens of thousands of alevis in the ottoman era. He sometimes subtly talks down on Alevi values and have used the prejudice against alevis as a propaganda tool.
Erdogan is against Iran. He recently built a missile shield against Iran even though Turkey has no military problem with them. It was,in effect, protect Iran’s enemies from missile attacks.
I laughed when i read Craig’s views on Turkey’s foreign policy regarding Israel. We are pro-israel now. Don’t mix it up.
http://www.economist.com/printedition/2013-06-08
Anony, thanks for your responses and for the Economist article — now that seems to be a very credible take on things and i think very well rounded. Sounds to me like he’s gonna have to listen to his own deputies and President else they might be routed in the next elections.
This bit was a surprise, if not shock, for me:
“More journalists are in jail in Turkey than in China.”
His deputies aren’t sincere. They try to cover his tracks but when he shouts, they follow him unconditionally. That includes the president. That’s why,our politics are in a bind right now.
Allegedly, when Erdogan heard the president’s speech to calm the nerves of all,he disagreed with him. Erdogan’s deputy sort of “apologized”. When Erdogan learned of it, he broke the tablet in his hands while watching him.
He is,in essence, a strong man who never had to deal with a coalition,cooperation of parties. So he doesn’t know how to deal with political issues other than manipulation or plain force. He has no regard for bipartisanship.
That’s why i laughed at Craig. We have been worse than China for years now in press freedom.
I’m hoping the same for the next elections. But in the end,elections or not, we are going to protest to preserve civil rights.