It is not whether the individual had done anything wrong: it is whether the state has done anything wrong. Hague’s plea for the omniscient state is chilling: if you have done nothing wrong, then you have nothing to worry about. So it is alright for the state to eavesdrop all our social interactions, to follow our every move? Is there to be no privacy from the prying eye of the state, which can watch me on the toilet, and if I have done nothing wrong I have nothing to hide?
The terribly sad thing is that, by a media campaign which has raised public fear of terrorism beyond any rational analysis of the risk (depending which year you take as the base line, you have between 40 and 300 times more risk of drowning in your own bath than being killed by a terrorist) there is great public acceptance of the intrusive state. This of course depends on the notion that the state is not only omniscient but benevolent. I do urge anyone infected by this way of thinking to read Murder in Samarkand for a practical demonstration of just how malevolent, indeed evil, the state can be.
GCHQ and NSA share all intelligence reports, as do the CIA and MI6, under US/UK intelligence sharing agreements first put in place by Roosevelt and Churchill. That is one of the most widely known of all official secrets – there are probably fifty thousand current or retired civil servants like me who know that, and many academics, journalists etc – but even in the light of the Snowden revelations, you probably won’t see it much in print, and you won’t hear it in Parliament, because it is still a criminal offence to say it. Let me say it again:
GCHQ and NSA share all intelligence, as do the CIA and MI6, under US/UK intelligence sharing agreements first put in place by Roosevelt and Churchill. NSA and GCHQ do the large bulk of communication interception. Now both NSA and GCHQ are banned from spying on their own citizens without some motive of suspicion – though as Edward Snowden has been explaining, that motive of suspicion can be terribly slight, like you have someone as a facebook friend who has a facebook friend whose sister once knew someone connected with an animal liberation group. But in any event, the safeguards are meaningless as NSA and GCHQ can intercept communications of each other’s citizens and they share all information. I have been explaining this in public talks these last ten years – I am happy it is finally hitting the headlines.
We need Edward Snowden and we need Bradley Manning. I had hoped that the barefaced lies of Bush and Blair, leading to a war that killed hundreds of thousands, would make people see that politicians, and the corporate interests that stand so close behind them, simply cannot be trusted.
The world needs whistleblowers. Now more than ever.
Another CAPTCHA post block.
Peter King called it a defection.
And no second thoughts about Snowden who would be killing for the Special Forces if he had not broken both of his legs while overdoing training before 9/11?.
Edward Snowden: saving us from the United Stasi of America
Snowden’s whistleblowing gives us a chance to roll back what is tantamount to an ‘executive coup’ against the US constitution
Daniel Ellsberg
guardian.co.uk, Monday 10 June 2013 11.30 BST
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/10/edward-snowden-united-stasi-america
This from The Guardian:
@2013-06-10 09:40:04 UTC
But he indicated that GCHQ might have also fallen foul of the law if it accepted information from the NSA on British citizens. “One of the big questions that is being asked is if British intelligence agencies want to seek to know the content of emails can they get round the normal law in the UK by simply asking an American agency to provide that information?” he said.
@2013-06-10 13:40:38 UTC (about 4 hours later)
But he indicated that GCHQ might have also fallen foul of the law if it requested information from the NSA on British citizens. “One of the big questions that is being asked is if British intelligence agencies want to seek to know the content of emails can they get round the normal law in the UK by simply asking an American agency to provide that information?” he said.
Did anybody see what they did there?
Does this mean a redefinition of the word paranoid? In future this word could be used only for the mentally weak who refuse to believe that the state is spying on them and remain in blind denial, like HabbaChooChoo.
Anyone one who refuses to threaten state security online by video or voice medium will to have a state-threatening video made up by MI5 from voice and video clips stored on the master computer.
My insurance company Liverpool Victoria recently modified/ manufactured a false telephone conversation to exonerate themselves from paying out for my stolen car.
Our legal defence against the state will be that if they had the technology to spy on us, they also had the technology to make stuff up. Problem solved.
No, Jake, but it says a lot about this growing set-up, especially when you read most dubious Daniel Ellsberg, another gung-ho operative who apparently turned leaker – thanks to the Plumbers’ paranoia – when he says that Snowden has withheld much of what he knows – what makes him a ticking bomb when he shows up somewhere as a defector.
Julian Assange on ABC’s Lateline program talking about Bradley Manning, Edward Snowden and the NSA leaks, Bob Carr, Wikileaks Party and Jemima Khan. Video about 20min.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-10/assanges-political-ambition/4744972
@ Jake (16h17)
Yes, Jake – one little verb and you’re in the clear…..
Does petulant means useless qunt?
If not! Then best describe that weasely, wanky, gobshite, with his correct designation; an utterly useless qunt. Why on Earth the corporate Media get his kind of a wanker to appear on the telly? Every time he appears on my telly, I have to wash the fucking slime oozing off the screen, and although as yet there are no smellovisions (thank fuck for that ) yet there is an odour of sulphur/fart that hangs around my telly for days.
=========
In the latest the US has approached one Regina Ip (the one on the left, looks like a ladyboy) Whom in turn has issued an edict:
Fact that Snowden is aware of his fate, and that of his friends and family:
However what is Regina Ip driving at? Why on Earth should the US have approached her? And why such a speedy response from her?
Is Snowden a working CIA agent, who is injected into Hong Kong, which Chinese do not want to be involved with?
Is Regina IP despite her “pro Beijing” credentials a Yankophile at heart and hence engaged in harassing Snowden?
Fact is he has blown the cover of the corporate and intelligence services collusion in spying the shit out of anyone and everyone on the internet. Could this revelation (long suspected and now confirmed) result in countries taking the matters into their own hands and start separating their traffic from the reach of the NSA, and GCHQ?
If the above scenario should hold, does this mean oodles of money for the technology providers as these countries start setting up their relevant infrastructures?
Reminds me of another CIA/NSA cipher, David Hemler, who allegedly defected to Sweden so he could help set up Pale in an non-nucleary showdown with the USSR in the 1980s, and ended up staying there ever since when it didn’t occur.
Apparently he approached the Washington Post and they did not respond to his inquiry to his satisfaction.
WaPo eventually published just 4 of the files; exactly what Guardian published. What of the other 37 files?
files should be ‘slides’ from PowerPoint presentation.
Perhaps the WP remembered what happened when Wikileaks posted all the unredacted Afghan File. from Gareth Williams.
There is a certain bitter satisfaction in all this for us Democracy-sceptics. Democracy, this hideous system, continues on its true course; and most of the commentators miss the point, as usual.
Picking on a cabinet minister is silly; they are essentially interchangeable, as are the main parties. The public won’t much care either, any more than they cared over the wars of aggression, abductions, torture, etc etc. This ‘scandal’ will not be an election issue.
The noise here is from a minority whose thinking is still in the 19th century (and, yes, I’m aware of the delicious irony). They still think in terms of the rule of law, of public spiritedness, of certain kinds of thing being beyond the pale. But Democracy has swept away those old fashioned inhibitions.
As for Edward Snowden, while his motives are admirable one has to wonder whether he is not something of a fool; why should he risk so much for the sake of a public that holds its own rights and liberties in utter contempt?
” why should he risk so much for the sake of a public that holds its own rights and liberties in utter contempt?”
Personal redemption perhaps. Manning and Ellsberg were contrite over their participation and wanted some way out. Plus, they may recognize public apathy, but see this as a potential means of awakening in them their own sense of survival.
No irony, Pam, just ask Brougham’s ghost!
And Snowden takes severe risks, it seems, in the hope of ending up as a real hero for Anglo-American covert government.
For example, the Russians or the Chinese might well see to his execution if he drops in on them.
Is it possible that the Snowden and the spooks are in on this together?
Maybe the spooks want not so much a debate but the public to know how surveilled and subjugated they really are.
They will dress it up as a necessary tool against global cyber espionage,but really it’s about total control of their citizens.
I could be very wrong of course-i hope i am-but the timing is rather interesting.The leaks coming thick and fast as Obama heads to China for discussions about cyber warfare.It’s almost choreographed,with Greenwald seemingly able to push out leaks at will.
Snowden apparently being in Hong Kong adds a further curious synchronicity.
Just a thought…
Excellent post. Bob Cryer raised this in the Commons 17 days before he (allegedly) fell asleep at the wheel of his car.
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1994/mar/25/menwith-hill-station-north-yorkshire#S6CV0240P0_19940325_HOC_157
It is not beyond the realms of possibility that he was poisoned, like Tony Benn may have been too. Although nobody likes to think of their state as a murderer it is becoming increasingly evident that the US kills its own citizens (illegally at the moment) and we have Dr Kelly’s Death on our conscience.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2507&dat=19840928&id=vctAAAAAIBAJ&sjid=zKUMAAAAIBAJ&pg=3446,5747459
“Is Britain becoming a police state?” was a staple on Any Questions in the 1970s but not any more, since it would be purely rhetorical.
Jives, i also had a anti-advocates thought; that privacy is a weak issue compared to complicity in war mongering and cultural and political and economic repression. To put it mildy, it seems that secret services are either not protecting us against these things, or that they are nominally doing so by perpetuating their own preferred sides in these things.
Manning leaked about inhumane behaviour and diplomatic strategy. If all Snowdon talks about is privacy it could be a loosing message. However i think that if he is insincere and faking it – we are so far gone in the deception and perception control stakes, that there is no hope for anything except whats fated to us. Things seem pretty far gone, but not that far gone.
The information from Edward I think has seriously damaged Googles reputation at least, since Larry baldly denied it in the statement just days ago.
Hague says the snooping claims are “baseless” but he refuses to confirm whether or not “we” use Prism. Surely even a neocon gauleiter can see the questionable logic of that statement!
If Edward Snowden and Bradley Manning don’t win a joint Nobel Peace Prize (is it too late to nominate Snowden?) then the committee could always give it to the Drone King again, or maybe Clegg for staying silent while “we” armed the heart-eating animals in Syria?
It’s great to see the wheels coming off the War Machine. Everywhere you look people are waking up and the truth is coming out.
Hopefully the Guardian will keep up the pressure on Prism/GCHQ. Unless of course it implicates Israel…
Willyrobinson, 12.12pm
Yes, bit unfortunate that, but he did also say he admired Manning and called him a “classic whistleblower” so, who knows, quote not contextualised properly by the Guardian? Snowden has absorbed a lot of the misreporting of Manning’s actions there’s been in the US press (specifically about this particular issue)?
Here’s a good detailed piece on exactly why Snowden was wrong about it:
Confronting Edward Snowden’s Remarks on Bradley Manning:
http://ohtarzie.wordpress.com/2013/06/10/confronting-edward-snowdens-remarks-on-bradley-manning/
Darkernet are usually good on this sort of stuff. They’ve produced a page on the PRISM programme, GCHQ’s involvement and the possible involvement of Palantir. Lots of resource links at the bottom:
NSA new surveillance centre | social media partners’ spying specs | Prism coding (and more):
http://darkernet.in/nsa-new-surveillance-centre-social-media-partners-spying-specs-and-more/
Karla, 12.42pm
I had to laugh seeing those words together in the same paragraph.
http://wiki.echelon2.org/wiki/Booz_Allen_Hamilton
This is one of the things Barrett Brown and his Project PM were working on before he got stitched up on ridiculous charges for sharing a link on the internetz and is facing a possible 100-year jail sentence (probably whyhe got stitched up on ridiculous charges and is facing a 100-year jail sentence, come to think of it).
Among other women mentioned by Bob Cryer in his last major speech on the subject, Lindis Percy is still protesting about Menwith Hill 20 years after first breaking in. “More power to their elbow” said Mr Cryer. I hope you will all do what you can in the face of these intrusions into personal liberty. There will be another annual “Independence from America” on July 4th this year at Menwith Hill. The food (vegan) is delicious and very reasonably-priced. You’ll wonder why you ever ate meat if you taste these earthly, or should that be heavenly, wares.
At the Bilderberg Fringe 2,000 people, encouraged by Alex Jones of Infowars, were chanting “The answer to 1984 is 1776” and it was heartening to hear. It is time we returned to old values and civil liberties.
I’m doing my bit. Today I raised a freedom of information request on the FCO about 5 British based Muslims who were extradited to US supermax torture-chambers. In brief I want to know why their hearings have been put off for a further five to six months (should have been October, now March) when there must have been a cast-iron case surely to send our citizens to a country with one of the worst human rights’ records in the world.
I have also written to the new prosecution lawyer employed by Sofia Wilen, Ms Elisabeth Massi Fritz, to try and find out if she helped Sofia Wilen change her statement to try and make it more convincing or whether it was all Sofia’s own work. I asked a few other pertinent questions too.
We must keep fighting for freedom. We must protect our whistle-blowers. They are the best way forward to removing the diabolic state espionage on its own people.
Ben Franklin, 5.18pm
I don’t know, but I’ve gone all a-flutter about it, because of something Julian Assange said in that Lateline interview Jemand posted. Assange confirmed he’d had “indirect communication” with “his [Snowden’s] people” (whoever that may be…). As Guy Snowden’s original negotiations with WaPo were that all 41 slides be published “within 72 hours” and both WaPo and the Guardian have welched on the deal, I’m kinda hoping that Snowden’s next stop might be the world’s favourite “publisher of last resort” – WikiLeaks.
Transcript of the Lateline interview:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-10/assanges-political-ambition/4744972
On Snowden’s precarious position at the moment, there’s this NYT piece stating he’s very likely to be extradited from Hong Kong:
https://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/11/world/asia/edward-snowden-hong-kong-extradition.html?hp&_r=0&pagewanted=all
and WikiLeaks’ twitter has been pumping out lots of advice for Edward Snowden. Really going the distance to support him:
https://twitter.com/wikileaks
@Guano ‘Does this mean a redefinition of the word paranoid?’
‘A paranoid is someone who has just found out what is going on’. — William S. Burroughs (or someone like him)
John Goss, 7.18pm
Good for you! I doubt you’ll get a sensible answer, though. Massi Fritz is a new appointment, only one month old, so she wasn’t in any way involved in any of the 7 or 8 discussions with police Sofia Wilen has had. Probably the only thing you’ll succeed in doing is drawing the attention of a host of angry Swedish trolls (possibly Swedish intelligence ones) to Craig’s blog – they seem to follow Sofia around like a rash.
“Britons never will be slaves!” so the ditty goes.
Whilst at uni one of the lecturers (with a madly left wing reputation)… pointed out that actually through most of history they have been. Bollockz! I thought at the time – with all the independence of thought that the British Brainwashing Corporation bestows.
And yet… now… a confirmed anarchist, I see the truth of that. Serfs through history. Pike fodder for the laird. Canon fodder for the trenches. From the vagrancy act to today’s bedroom penalty. From every inch of land being claimed as already owned to a politician deciding what is history.
We are, they think, property of the state. But thought can free you.
Ironic rainbow alert!
Edward Snowden’s NSA workplace in Hawaii:
http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/press_room/2012/a4_hawaii_final.shtml
Anybody else having problems connecting to Arbed’s darkernet link? It was working only minutes ago.