GCHQ and the NSA between them employ tens of thousands of people. I am bemused by the shock at the “revelation” they have been spying. What on Earth did journalists think that spies do all day? That includes electronics spies.
Since Katherine Gun revealed that we spy on other delegations – and the secretariat – within the UN building, it is hardly a shock that we spy on other governments at summits in the UK. For once, the government cannot pretend that the object is to save us all from terrorism, which is the usual catch all excuse. Nor in the real world is any of the G20 nations a military threat to the UK. The real truth of the matter is that our spies – GCHQ, MI5 and MI6 – are themselves a large and highly influential interest block within the state. Lots of people make a great deal of money out of the security state, and this kind of activity is actually simply an excuse for taking money from taxpayers – which is from everyone who has ever bought anything – and giving that money to the “security industry”.
I do not view spying on other governments as quite as despicable as spying on ordinary citizens, which is an unspeakable betrayal of the purpose of government. Spying on other governments is a game they all play to extort money each to their own security elites. But I will say that spying on the South African government seems pretty low. Why?
Interception of diplomatic communications is plainly a gross breach of the Vienna Conventions, even if the forms of communication have changed since they were drafted. I have never studied the particulars of international law as they relate to spying, but it seems to me an area that in the modern world needs regulation. There must be room here for the UN to be involved in preparing a Convention to outlaw the interception of international communications, with recourse to the International Court of Justice for those victim of it.
There is more work for the UN on Syria. We should all be grateful that Russia is holding out against the very dubious western claims that the Syrian government has deployed chemical weapons. But while Obama can declare all the red lines he wishes, they do not give any country a right to take action on Syrian soil without UN authority. That needs to be restated, strongly. There is no basis at all for the continued and massive Israeli attacks on Syria – they are absolutely illegal. Israeli strikes have definitely killed more people than the alleged deaths from chemical weapons. Can someone explain to me why that is not a red line?
The UN Secretary General should be speaking out, and the UN Security Council should be meeting, to discuss the Israeli attacks on Syria. The system of international law has broken down irretrievably.
Hows the weather over there?
http://www.sat24.com/?culture=en
@ Phil, thanks, you could not have described anarchy any more beautiful than you have. Thinking for oneself is seen as dangerous, if you want to eat healthy food, care about sustainable cycles, community projects promoting alternative energies, or the democratic deficit and personal privacy, then you are suspicious, a troublemaker.
The NSA story is running away, they can’t shut it down, despite D notices, people are now clued up, but they are not sussed enough to encrypt their emails, but with increasing persecution of whistle-blowers, calling them spies and terrorists, when they merely point out the state of control we are subjected to already, people will eventually loose trust in official reasoning as they can only see knee jerk officialdom and book throwing from our authorities.
So the virulent reactions are counter productive and this counter productivity is mushrooming perpetually with every new information flow that leaks from their data orifice, we have been had and we know it, so encryption is not far away,imho.
Flouncer Gordon Thomas threw me off, Ben about the Mossad’s murder of Princess Diana when he wrote in Gideon’s Spies that it had tried to recruit driver Henri Paul to kill her, and that he refused.
Little did I realize that this disinformation was to give the Mossad a cover for the mission which it carried out by taking over the driving computers, and killing not only Di but also fall guy driver in the process.
China got to sign the UN Charter first, as the first victim of aggression by an Axis power, and it appreciates that distinction. China invoked the UN Charter over the Daiyou Islands but in the case of Syria, China seems to be sticking to non-legal language like ‘tensions.’ In fact, China has kept Syria out of ICC’s investigative purview. They seem leery of the Libyan precedent under Moreno-Ocampo. They may well feel that ICC is not ready for prime time.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/un-human-rights-commissioner-navi-pillay-pretext-maker-for-western-military-aggression/5323569
The reason Snowden chose China is the extradition treaty is incomplete and excludes political matters. The US made a mistake not indicting him for criminal violations, so there you have it.
So why all the hype by Snowden, and the Incompence by America’s security state?
Seems that Snowden went to HK, knowing that the Chinese would be obliged to let him stay there while fanning the flames about the USA’s willingness and ability to get him when, in fact, it made sure that there is no way in hell of doing so
Looks like my original version of Snowden’s disclosures is correct – i.e., he reacted to the Agency’s effort to set him up as a pillow-take spy, like Ben Bishop, by arranging an escape, and release of classified documents which would make his helpless minders look like the fools they are.
Looks more like a most clever self-server than anyone’s real spy.
“Looks more like a most clever self-server than anyone’s real spy.”
It’s too stupid a mistake, to be a mistake. Could he be a trojan horse?
Time for a new post, Craig.
This is turning into Mumsnet…
@Cryptonym
“Libya under Gadaffi was probably the closest any country had ever come to a practical realisation of the theory of democracy, blah, blah………….”
You are one of Gerry Healy’s “love” children and I claim my £5
I just had a look at most of this thread and I wish I hadn’t bothered. The above sample only gets highlighted for being the most stupid of many contenders.
Craig is still clearly banging on with his one sided view of interenational law when it is only breaches by one side of the argument that appear to matter. Perhaps he might wish to comment on why Iran sending troops into Syria, Hezbollah doing likewise (to say nothing of their use of suicide bombers), Syria’s blowing up of a Lebanese Prime Minister, Syria’s illegal occupation of Lebanon, the Assad dynasty’s myriad breaches of human rights law do not also represent clear breaches of international law. Perhaps he should also consider that the underlying purpose of the framework of international law that was set up after WW2 was to prevent dictators becoming established before they trash the human rights of their citizens and destroy the peace of their neighbours – and why said international law clearly failed in the case of Assad and Syria many years ago.
@ Trowbridge H. Ford :
“Chalk up another one for Mossad. It hated her {ie, Princess Diana}”
____________
You will keep throwing around these ex cathedra statements, won’t you.
So here’s a challenge : please tell us why “Mossad hated Princess Diana”.
In your own words and not by simply linking to websites or your own blog.
Off you go!
Krupp thank you for your response and that link. The depth of some of the information there is new to me, and judging by earlier comments, probably to many others here.
Btw, two questions — do you have an update on the status of reconstitution of the permanent members of the Security Council, and do you see the BRICS countries coming together at anytime as some sort of a counterbalance to the West? In other words can we expect any such thing as global peace within our generation??? Or is this just wishful thinking?
I cannot believe the way we human beings live. Was it Aldous Huxley who said that Earth may be another planet’s Hell?
Hi Villager
Is Technicolour female? The thought never occurred to me and I’m astounded (but quite pleased, actually).
@ Resident Dissident – good to see you back. Happy we share the same opinion about the Libya under Gaddafi bit.
@ Villager
The answer to your question on the BRICs is “no”.
Given the juxtaposition and order of your sentences, I hope you aren’t so optimistic as to believe that ‘global peace within our generation’ would be achieved if only the Security Council was recast and the BRICs constitute a ‘counter-balance’ to the West.
Finally, to complement your very last sentence, was it not Sartre who said “Hell is other people”?
Greetings from Habbabkuk, lord of all he surveys.
Sofia: “She was gratified to see what a venoumous and hysterical array of insults were returned, from yourself and others.”
Do you have any examples of my insults to you? Anyway you have earned my pity and recognition that you are so lost there isn’t a chance you could help change anything on this planet. Re Kibo, keep it in check for sock-puppeting is forbidden here.
“Isn’t it the false narratives and constant propaganda that needs to be challenged and dismantled, rather than the individuals who peddle them?”
You poor soul, you really are so lost. Forgive me for repeating, I really meant that. I was reminded that Aldous Huxley who was a friend of K’s wrote a preface to one of his books — you might find that and read it for starters. Night, night.
As the humungous scale of the NSA/GCHQ/Five Eyes Total Interception/Tempora/Prism – or whatever today’s latest project acronym is – begins to fully sink in, I think there’s going to be quite a few oh-oh moments like this one, as people put two and two together (and freak out completely):
http://www.genewatch.org/uploads/f03c6d66a9b354535738483c1c3d49e4/DNAinNHS_GWbriefing_fin.pdf
Sample quote:
“Under this proposal, everyone’s NHS medical records and genomes [ie. their individual DNA profile] will be shared with companies such as Google without people’s knowledge or consent. Data-sharing will be global…”
True story. Project has been snuck through by UK government without telling the public and it’s due to launch this month. Yikes!
The edl turned up at the people’s assembly today. A small number, surrounded by police, walked straight into the throngs outside. Obviously they were challenged and there was a fracas. I had a copper say to me, “if you hit me again I’ll arrest you”. I had hit no one. Which the copper knew full well. I had asked why he wasn’t arresting an edl who had punched the man next to me. The punch had been delivered over a copper’s shoulder and the copper had then stood between us and the assailant. I saw two edl land punches on people but the police did nothing. I saw no edl arrested. But the police did arrest non-edl.
It wasn’t overly violent, mostly pushing and shouting. The nerve of a handfull of racists to assault a mainstream political event in westminster was surprisingly ballsy. But the blatant favour and protection offered to the racists by the police was the real surporise. Very ominous. From Athens to London.
On topic.
Seems like it’s getting even more messy.
“They are killing each other.”
http://rt.com/op-edge/syria-dangers-arming-rebels-048/
.
Where are the UN lawyers on this issue?
“….a boon to the lawyers is asset seizure, to which the Saudi Royals are very vulnerable because they have extensive personal holdings all over the world, particularly in public companies. As for the evidence, there is an endless supply of retired Intel people who can supply it, plus modern data-mining can update older information in a jiffy.”
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/06/21/310084/saudi-arabia-and-support-for-terrorism/
There’s more:
DNA data to be shared worldwide in medical research project
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jun/05/dna-genetic-data-shared-medical-research?INTCMP=SRCH
The subhead on this article claims that only anonymised DNA records will go in the database, but that can’t be the whole story otherwise the article wouldn’t also include this bit:
MOSSAD had to kill Diana because she was on the verge of converting to Islam so she could marry Dodi Fayed. As a crucial part of the Islamic conversion ceremony Diana would have had to openly reject and condemn her previous religion which would have exposed her as being a Jew. Not only that but both her sons were born and raised in the Jewish faith, what else would explain Harry’s eagerness to kill Muslims and William losing his hair just where his caplet would rub? Once king William (AKA Velvev) will pass laws making Britain a Jewish nation, driving out the Muslims and Christians and making the country a vassal to the state of Israel.
As ever the bollocks of unconscious drivel getting spewed, with a one sided and jaundiced view of anything outside of the corporate medjia’s remit. Iran is sending troops to rebuild the almighty destruction unleashed on Syria by the very democratic regimes in Saudi, Qatar, their sponsored mercenaries equipped by arms supplied by the US, et al and injected through Turkey and Jordan. The whole murderous affair getting choreographed by the mercenary for hire Erik Prince ensconced in Qatar. All the while with the active support and planning, of the US and co.
The old crap about “democracy” and “human rights” are such a worn out, and fucked up excuses, considering the episodes of Iraq, Afghanistan, Abu Ghraib, Gitmo, Patriot act, Prism, Spies R us ……… These excuses no longer whitewash the theft of the resources, and repression of the owners of these resources.
When Lebanon joins in to protect their own interests, this is portrayed as; Hezbollah terrorists fighting the “rebels”. However the same bunch of tossers complaining about the involvement of the neighbours of Syria to stop the “game changing” shenanigans of those sitting umpteen thousands of miles away and ordering the massacre, destruction of Syrians, all the while supporting the ziofuckwits and the ongoing murder fest and land theft in Palestine.
The shameless bastards who defend such an unjust crimes against peace and crimes against humanity then wax lyrical about the “international law”!! That is fucked up taken to a new level.
Thanks, V. Last I heard, the Small Five – Costa Rica, Jordan, Liechtenstein, Singapore and Switzerland (S-5) – had proposed:
• End the P-5’s improvised back-room deals with formal UNSC rules of order.
• Impose due process for lifting the sanctions that the P-5 impose for decades on end.
• End the impunity that the P-5 enjoy by holding serious crimes to account, using all measures under international law.
• Encourage the P-5 to vote no without invoking the veto power of Article 27(3).
• Require the P-5 to justify their vetoes in terms of international law.
• Prohibit vetoes of UN measures against the most serious crimes.
The Small Five’s 21 points didn’t directly attack the UN’s fundamental inequities, the restricted membership of the Security Council and the veto. Those are tough nuts.
Security Council expansion is complicated by the member states’ ambitions. Members are jockeying for position with competing proposals for permanent, renewable, or rotating seats held for various terms. Coalitions bid for new seats, weighing their ideals of rights and law against national and regional interests. The permanent members undercut broadened participation by appealing to national ambitions.
No new member stands to gain a veto, and the P-5 refuse to cede their own. So the 21 points tried to moderate the veto power. They would subordinate the veto to the rule of law and establish precedents restricting its scope and discouraging its use. The United States, as the worst abuser of the veto, had the most to lose.
But the S-5 withdrew the proposal when Secretariat legal counsel killed it by demanding an impossible two-thirds majority for adoption. The Small Five aimed for majority approval of their resolution, which anyway depended on the consent of the UNSC for compliance.
Oh well. This is a project of generations, and the rule of law bloc is not giving up.
This is a good source, http://www.centerforunreform.org/node/13
Hi there Habby, re TC, yes i’m pretty sure and a soulful one at that. Clearly one of the deeper personalities around here.
And I’m not an optimist at all, in fact if anything i tend to lapse to pessimism — for the most part i try to bring myself back to realism and awareness, the constancy of which is one of the most difficult things to be with. Still, i must say, the lack of inundation by a constant stream and barrage of random posts is helpful towards that reflective mind.
In the same spirit i tend also to be very naive, hence my BRICS and UNSC questions. As we approached the turn of this millennium, the biggest news stories were Y2K and Blow jobs in the Oval Office. WE were (mis)lead to believe that we were marching into the rainbow. Then look what happened and where we are. But in summary, as one who understands debits and credits, the biggest hoax being pulled on us is the spend by the West (and others) on the accepted euphemism of ‘Defence’ while billions of our fellow humans live in hunger, thirst for clean drinking water and in miserable poverty. Its offensive in avery ugly way.
Finally another of Huxley “There’s only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that’s your own self.”
Time Must Have a Stop (1944)
Our armchair activists who behave like they own the total space of compassion in the world — well we’ve seen how much grace some of them have. They take themselves ever so seriously and want to reprimand others who don’t immediately go ‘hear hear’. And then grace, the one thing in the shortest supply in this world goes out the window. I still can’t get over sweet Dreolin being called ‘petty’. But i’m ready now.
“I just had a look at most of this thread and I wish I hadn’t bothered”
Yet you got your two pence in, so it wasn’t a complete waste, now was it?
@ Krruppp
Thanks. Good on the S5! I hope they keep plugging their proposals.
…………………………………..
@Villager 9 01pm
“You poor soul, you really are so lost.”
What is your problem?
If you can’t remember your insults then try reviewing the “Arming Syria Thread” from the evening of the 16th on and on thru this “UN” thread. Do the looking yourself. You aren’t going to distract me again.
And what on earth upsets you about me writing ….. “Isn’t it the false narratives and constant propaganda that needs to be challenged and dismantled, rather than the individuals who peddle them?”
Re your final paragraph about Huxley and his friend K. I’m sorry but I just can’t understand it what it has got to do with any of this stuff. I’ve no argument with either of those great men.
Why are we wasting our time squabbling among ourselves and not discussing how to counter (as Fedup (9 46pm) puts it …“The shameless bastards who defend such an unjust crimes against peace and crimes against humanity then wax lyrical about the “international law!”
Let’s talk about how we can empower the UN to do it’s job for once and rein in the dogs of war?
“Hows the weather over there?”
Fine, cool breeze.
It’s been overcast unfortunately I was hoping to see the perigee moon, maybe it will be clearer tomorrow.
@phil
I hope you enjoyed your dog walk and if is is what you wanted; you found some friendship peace and tranquility.
Enjoy your future dog walks and hold find memories of previous.
Sorry typo – Fond.
“I just had a look at most of this thread and I wish I hadn’t bothered”
Surely you have something to say in response of KOWN’s post of;
“No, I genuinely don’t believe in the existence of the ‘anti-West narrative’ that you frequently inveigh against. I do think most posters on this thread are united by disgust and anger for much of what the West does, but that is not the same thing. As for the examples you cite – mistreatment of women in India, for example – I think the reason people don’t post on such issues is simply that these things are universally condemned and hardly worth the effort of pointing out on a forum where it can be tacitly assumed most people are on the same page. What gets people’s goat here, I submit without a trace of faux-naivety, is those instances where there is a chasm between the cruel things the west does and the way they are laundered and perfumed by such organs as the BBC.”
Which was actually addressed to the Hubbu-Clown troll, who of course didn’t answer, but instead chose to continue trolling after Mary; would you like to engage with what KOWN wrote ?
Krupp thank you for enlightening us on the S-5 initiatives. I must admit i had NO KNOWLEDGE of these highly important, even if subtle, events.
“But the S-5 withdrew the proposal when Secretariat legal counsel killed it by demanding an impossible two-thirds majority for adoption. The Small Five aimed for majority approval of their resolution, which anyway depended on the consent of the UNSC for compliance.
Oh well. This is a project of generations, and the rule of law bloc is not giving up.”
Which leads me to question why a 2/3’s majority is so difficult to achieve, but i imagine it has something to do with Imperialism, past and present. So that is where we come back to. But it would be good if some of these smaller countries you mentioned plus countries like Iceland and Bhutan would form their own grouping, meet regularly and provide a considered agenda that credibly challenges, even without the power-base, some of the fundamental existential inequities in the planet. I think the younger generation is ripe and ready to pick up on global policy issues with their own Govts on the streets. They could end up playing the role of Elder Statesmen, since we don’t really have any left on the Planet anymore.
I remember sharing positive celebratory words with a young Belgian friend working with the EU commission and she cautioned with a well lets see if he acts on his promises now. How wise she was. How naive i was and still am.
At any rate, this must be a first to be having an on-topic conversation so deep, relatively speaking, in a thread on this blog. It’s refreshing to speak with an expert rather than one more purveyor of bits from medialens and dissident voice or whatever. Nothing wrong with that, but its all about quotations, rather than creative, original, fresh thinking whatever the source. Thanks for the source.
“MOSSAD had to kill Diana because she was on the verge of converting to Islam so she could marry Dodi Fayed. As a crucial part of the Islamic conversion ceremony Diana would have had to openly reject and condemn her previous religion which would have exposed her as being a Jew. Not only that but both her sons were born and raised in the Jewish faith, what else would explain Harry’s eagerness to kill Muslims and William losing his hair just where his caplet would rub? Once king William (AKA Velvev) will pass laws making Britain a Jewish nation, driving out the Muslims and Christians and making the country a vassal to the state of Israel.”
___________
Brilliant piss-take against our amigo Trowbridge, congrats to the unknown author! :).
Could you do one on man-made earthquakes some time (another Trowbridge speciality, I think)?