GCHQ and the NSA between them employ tens of thousands of people. I am bemused by the shock at the “revelation” they have been spying. What on Earth did journalists think that spies do all day? That includes electronics spies.
Since Katherine Gun revealed that we spy on other delegations – and the secretariat – within the UN building, it is hardly a shock that we spy on other governments at summits in the UK. For once, the government cannot pretend that the object is to save us all from terrorism, which is the usual catch all excuse. Nor in the real world is any of the G20 nations a military threat to the UK. The real truth of the matter is that our spies – GCHQ, MI5 and MI6 – are themselves a large and highly influential interest block within the state. Lots of people make a great deal of money out of the security state, and this kind of activity is actually simply an excuse for taking money from taxpayers – which is from everyone who has ever bought anything – and giving that money to the “security industry”.
I do not view spying on other governments as quite as despicable as spying on ordinary citizens, which is an unspeakable betrayal of the purpose of government. Spying on other governments is a game they all play to extort money each to their own security elites. But I will say that spying on the South African government seems pretty low. Why?
Interception of diplomatic communications is plainly a gross breach of the Vienna Conventions, even if the forms of communication have changed since they were drafted. I have never studied the particulars of international law as they relate to spying, but it seems to me an area that in the modern world needs regulation. There must be room here for the UN to be involved in preparing a Convention to outlaw the interception of international communications, with recourse to the International Court of Justice for those victim of it.
There is more work for the UN on Syria. We should all be grateful that Russia is holding out against the very dubious western claims that the Syrian government has deployed chemical weapons. But while Obama can declare all the red lines he wishes, they do not give any country a right to take action on Syrian soil without UN authority. That needs to be restated, strongly. There is no basis at all for the continued and massive Israeli attacks on Syria – they are absolutely illegal. Israeli strikes have definitely killed more people than the alleged deaths from chemical weapons. Can someone explain to me why that is not a red line?
The UN Secretary General should be speaking out, and the UN Security Council should be meeting, to discuss the Israeli attacks on Syria. The system of international law has broken down irretrievably.
Habbabkuk,
In fairness to Jon i must say that a couple of pretty lengthy posts of mine,in reply to you,were also deleted.They were simply part of our discussion about various posters approaches to this blog.They werent in any way abusive but OT certainly( often permitted here) but certainly in danger of distracting and possibly adding fuel-albeit unintentionally-to the inter-personal squabbling.
But it really doesnt bother me,not one bit.
Compared to many other fora i think Jon does a fair,patient and considered job of modding what can be a fiery forum.
I dont mind the occassional bit of blog housekeeping and pruning.
It certainly doesnt feel like Politburo censorship-far from it.
Certainly nothing to get in a flap over IMO
Thanks Komodo for finding this (8 51am yesterday).
http://www.mepc.org/articles-commentary/speeches/hasbara-and-control-narrative-element-strategy
Some exerpts:
“Hasbara has its roots in earlier concepts of propaganda, agitprop, and censorship. Like them, it is communication calculated to influence cognition and behavior by manipulating perceptions of a cause or position with one-sided arguments, prejudicial substance, and emotional appeals.”
“…does not seek merely to burnish or tarnish national images of concern to it or to supply information favorable to its theses.”
“It also seeks actively to inculcate canons of political correctness in domestic and foreign media and audiences that will promote self-censorship by them.”
“It strives thereby to decrease the willingness of audiences to consider information linked to politically unacceptable viewpoints, individuals, and groups and to inhibit the circulation of adverse information in social networks.”
“…recognizes the control of narrative as a potent weapon.”
“…In politics, perception is reality. Narratives legitimize some perceptions and delegitimize others. Narratives can be drawn upon to reinforce stereotypes by imposing favorable or pejorative labels on information and its sources. Such labels predispose recipients of information to accept some things as credible, to disbelieve others, and to regard still others as so tainted or implausible that they can and should be ruled out of order and ignored.”
“…creating websites, social media accounts, and messages attributed to false identities.”
“…impugn the moral standing of those who make such statements.”
………………………………
Again, can anyone post link(s) with advice for professionals. I looked briefly (Duckduckgo) but came up with nothing.
Thanks.
Habbabkuk,
I should also say Cryptonym’s post doesnt approve my post; it was Ben’s post he was agreeing with.
But as i say it really doesnt bother me.
Unless of course i check Jemand’s Wiki link to Collective Narcissicism and discover my relaxed feelings in regard to this are the classic signs of a latent collective narcissist..;-)
I’ve had my rebuttal of a Habby provocation of Passerby deleted by Jon in the Mandela thread.
It was a well argued, civilized exposition of the dishonesty of Habby’s arguments.
Curiously the Habby provocation remains.
So. Spot on, Cryptonym.
Well it looks like Jon has been very even-handed and balanced in his post culling then.
Im not even certain that this post’ll survive…
Only Collective Narcissists,if i’m reading that Wiki link correctly, will bemoan the culling…
Can that be right? 🙂
Has there been any explanation of Villager’s transition from foremost arguer with and foe of Habby to bestest friends?
Now that i’m apparently a bona-fide Collective Narcissist i must seek a meaning for the phrase Hilarious Irony!
😉
Villager I used the word ‘group’ to mean the whole group of commenters not ‘groups’, as in cliques. I think you know that.
My post to Dreoilin has also been deleted. Jolly good. Hope she read my words. Some of those whose comments have apparently gone seem to have become very aerated. I keep saying that there are important changes taking place in the real world. Today for instance, another huge chunk of spending cuts will be announced. It’s called austerity. Austerity for most of us but not universal.
“Unless I’m greatly mistaken (and I would be happy to be corrected), a post yesterday from DREOILIN, in which she refers to my “filetting” of our friend Komodo (see my post at 13h22 yesterday), also appears to have been deleted (without any indication and without a reason having been given).”
Looks like you’re right, Habbabkuk. I was here only briefly last night, and what I noticed was the Jon had deleted a post from MARY (directed at me), which his own comment (9.48pm) seemed to have replaced. I still have some/most of Mary’s as I had copied it with the intention of replying to it. Then I realised that it had disappeared. Unfortunately I didn’t scroll upwards and see that others had been deleted too.
For the record, when moderation was more active here, Jon used to replace deleted comments with a note saying something like: ‘Mod/Jon – comment deleted – personal insults.’
I didn’t realise that Jemand’s link to Introspection illusion at Wikipedia had been deleted too (among others). I had read the page and found it most interesting.
It’s a difficult scenario. Moderation here is done by volunteers (at present one volunteer – or someone who was chosen to volunteer, as Clark described it) and even with light moderation, as Craig has apparently requested, it’s a big job and it takes time. We have more commenters than we used to have, and a greater number of comments, at least on some threads. Perhaps Jemand’s suggestion about a type of ‘Community Standards’ (listed somewhere easily accessible) might be a good one. It might encourage more self-moderation.
“If the moderator must delete posts, it would be helpful if he left notice of said deletion on the thread and gave a brief reason for why he deleted. This would ensure transparency and enable readers to verify his impartiality.”
I have great sympathy for Jon, and anyone else who takes on moderation here. And for the record, I have always found Jon very fair and impartial. But I would have to agree with the above.
Herbie
26 Jun, 2013 – 9:25 am
Has there been any explanation of Villager’s transition from foremost arguer with and foe of Habby to bestest friends?
—-
Hi Herbie, glad you noted it and good question. Thank you for asking.
Answer: Objectivity and moving on. Habby toned down and lightened up and fought all the abuse showered on him admirably showing grace and strength of character. I also believe he writes clearly and eloquently thereby facilitating debate. Of course he’s rigorous but thats fine by me.
The other commenter toned up and became increasing indiscriminate about posting trivia coated with constant snide remarks that detract from the main conversation.
By the way i don’t have best friends or ‘bestest’. I don’t know him any better than you, but i’ll call it as i see it.
@Jon, re “I will have to zap posts that are for the exclusive purpose of provocation”
My now zapped Post of late last night was not for the “exclusive purpose of provocation”, except perhaps the little rhyme that was added on as an afterthought in ironic agreement that what this Board really needs are more forced chuckles despite the now prevalent nasty atmosphere; instead it was an earnest plea for Posters to be mindful of what they are indulging in, either voluntary or inadvertently, with the additional hope that it may caused the main person in question to reflect on & perhaps change his behaviour.
I therefore repeat my post below, but with the “chuckles” rhyme removed, however now that I have your attention, perhaps some good can be salvaged from this situation; I feel that there is a problem regarding old threads, in that is it not possible to know (without spending a tedious amount of time), which ones are still active or not, and I sure many comments have be posted utterly in vain as they remain unread. Would it not be desirable not to have a little slide panel showing which old treads still active, and preferably with easy to go-to clickable links ?
Repost:
“Whetever the Habbu-Clown is a Hasbara troll on a mission, or just an egoist with a personality disorder, the result is the same, namely discord & disruption. In the months he has been posting, I can only recall just a handful of times when he has actually engage on points of issues, normally only because he was cornered into doing so, and then only done in the most superficial & briefest of manner; clearly his motivation here is not for honest debate, far too keen on personal attacks rather than engaging with the subjects under discussion. His disgraceful bullying of Mary on purely hypocritical justifications, has sadly attracted & encouraged others for reasons best known to themselves, and almost as bad are some others, who pretend to not to notice what is occurring, and give him the time of day; in my mind, this is akin to passing a man on the street who is beating-up on a woman, tipping your hat & wishing him a “Good Morning” as you step over the battered body of the woman; there are even some here who opportunistically take the equivalent of a savage kick at the victim as they make polite conversation or share a jolly joke with the Dark Troll. How certain people on this Blog have reacted to this long running repulsive situation is both shameful & damning.”
When I was a small child I poked a long stick into a wasp nest as a dare with my brother.
We had wondered if I could run faster than wasps can fly and soon got an answer.
I wasn’t the only one to get badly stung.
What a slow learner I am!
Bad idea Macky. When a post is deleted you don’t re-post it. It’s bad form.
And as for “beating-up on a woman” — there’s a simple solution to that. If Mary can’t take the heat, she should get out of the kitchen.
And if you had seen what she wrote to me last night, you might re-evaluate. But I’m not holding my breath. People have taken positions and they’re not going to give them up lightly.
Right,im away to buy some fresh methi leaves to make a huge pot of Saag Aloo.
Methi really calms the mind and body.
I hope Ed Snowden is OK.
Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)
25 Jun, 2013 – 10:53 pm
“…Habbacunt” or “Habbakyke” – “kike”(=Yid)…”
Nothing wrong with “Habbacunt” (only a bit of fun) but I accept Habbakyke is used in this case as a racist insult.
The poster of this term being:
The Sayanim Ensemble
17 Jun, 2013 – 10:21 am
“May I ask kempe,habbakyke,gileski and jemandstein…”
The Sayanim Ensemble I think could be a US Zionist troll trying to feed in some anti-Jewish terms to smear this blog.
He/She should be closely watched by all in future.
“Right, im away to buy some fresh methi leaves to make a huge pot of Saag Aloo.”
Jives, explain please?
“bad form” to hightlight bad form, so says a master practitioner !
Dreoilin,
Saag Aloo…my favourire food…lashings of onion,garlic,ginger,chillies,potatoes,tomatoes,fresh ground spices,chickpeas,fresh spinach,coriander and,of course,handfuls of fresh methi leaves(fenugreek).
Simmer for 50 minutes,serve with Naan bread and raita 🙂
I mean poor old Tony Opmoc…
Now theres a guy who had screeds of post deleted and took it like a gentleman.
We should acknowledge Tony’s acceptance of his deletions with humour and good grace and maybe all take a leaf out of his book 🙂
Thanks, Jives. Sounds good.
I found this
http://www.ageless.co.za/herb-fenugreek.htm
@Macky 10 23am
“Would it not be desirable not to have a little slide panel showing which old treads still active, and preferably with easy to go-to clickable links ?”
Now maybe that’s something we can all agree on?
……………………………….
More advice to amateurs from:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/53789685/Hasbara-Handbook-Promoting-Israel-on-Campus
“Score Points Whilst Avoiding Debate”
“Point scoring communication ought to give the appearance of rational debate, whilst avoiding genuine discussion.”
“…all point scoring needs to be disguised. To disguise point scoring, comments need to seem to be logical, and to follow from what was said before. Use phrases that subtly change the agenda or reframe the debate…”
……………………………..
No links forthcoming re “Advice to Professionals”.
Maybe this blog would provide good material for someone, with the time, to do some reverse engineering.
Kibo Noh (are you Crab, by the way?)
The Hasbara Handbook has been posted here before. More than once. And I think most of us read it at those times. Just FYI.
@ Jives (and Jon)
“Maybe Jon just got pissed off at a few of us.I wouldnt really blame him.”
And I wouldn’t entirely blame him for a sudden upsurge of exasperation (including at me).
But look, there is a bit of a problem here. Let me make two points.
The problem with Jon deleting comments which he judges are there merely to provoke is that is raises the questions of definition and of judging the intention (rather than the substance of the post) and that it could lead to manipulation.
Let me explain.
1/. I submit that asking a commenter to justify the content, or the style/tone or the relevance (or any combination of these) of a comment cannot be styled as provocation. Or at least no more provocative than posting the original comment. I challenge anyone to point to more than the merest handful of questions or comments of mine which are not entirely legitimate on a blog – provided that that blog is meant to further the free exchange of views and not just to provide an expressions of the various aspects of la pensée unique.
2/. Which brings me onto the question of manipulation.
Let’s assume I post a question or comment which legitimately calls into question the content,style, tone or relevance of someone else’s comments. What kind of responses are possible? Well, the original poster could reply with reasoned argument. Or he/she might prefer not to do so, although that might be considered as an inability to do so from which other readers might draw certain conclusions. It would not be out-of-court if third parties intervened in the spirit indicated above. Or, if those third parties judged the question to be frivolous or worse, they could simply scroll past it.
But a rather more manipulative approach is also possible, and this is what I think has been occurring for some time now. I consists in third parties – idealogical ‘allies’ of the first poster, of course – to reply en masse to me and to do so in a provocative and, as experience shows, vulgar, accusatory or violent manner, the hope being that this in turn will elicit further responses from me. In this way, a critical mass of comments is built up, which at a certain point is used as evidence of my ‘disruptive’ effect on this blog; in other words, disruption has been cleverly built up by third parties but ascribed to me. And the end effect is that Jon would intervene and, for reasons of facility, simply delete my question or comment (with perhaps, to be fair to him, those of others as well); in this way, the intention of certain representatives of la pensée unique will have achieved their intention of ridding the blog of any opinions which they feel do not correspond to theirs.
Just a thought!
And now could we perhaps stop navel gazing, man up, start focussing and cease using me as an easy butt for people’s various frustrations and anger at wider events?
Habbabkuk,
The problem is most likely this:
While we all get involved on an frequent basis maybe Jon just pops in now and again.
Its not as if he’s paid to do this full time and im sure hes got a busy life away from here..
So,maybe he gets just the odd glimpse from the outside and does as he sees best,and most fairly,in that little window of his time?
We’ve got used to this here over the years;some edits you win some you lose…
Short of getting a full time paid mod i see no solution.
Its just one of the imperfections of blogland i feel…
Any yet still we all visit eh 🙂
“LET’S BURN BOOKS – THEY KEEP US WARM”
I had to smile when I threw a copy of Fahrenheit 451 on the stove.
I submit that asking a commenter to justify the content, or the style/tone or the relevance (or any combination of these) of a comment cannot be styled as provocation.
Repeatedly and insistently demanding answers to questions you are perfectly capable of answering yourself, and which more than tend to the rhetorical, can be styled as being intentionally a pain in the arse. Failure to provide support for your ex-cathedra pronouncements – in your case total failure while demanding chapter and verse from everyone else is inexcusable arrogance.
the hope being that this in turn will elicit further responses from me..
We may be mad, but we’re not bloody stupid. Come off it.
certain representatives of la pensée unique will have achieved their intention of ridding the blog of any opinions which they feel do not correspond to theirs.
We’re not thinking about a representative of la pensée israélienne selectively trolling Mary, here, are we? Perish the thought.
And now could we perhaps stop navel gazing, man up, start focussing and cease using me as an easy butt…
I was waiting for the victim card to be played. It goes with the script.
Pffft.
“And now could we perhaps stop navel gazing, man up, start focussing”
Ok off you go then, as it’s at least three times you said that you would respond to KOWN’s post about the accusation frequently made by yourself & one or two others, that there is a predominately ‘anti-West narrative’ here on this Board.
Here to help get you started is what KOWN posted;
““No, I genuinely don’t believe in the existence of the ‘anti-West narrative’ that you frequently inveigh against. I do think most posters on this thread are united by disgust and anger for much of what the West does, but that is not the same thing. As for the examples you cite – mistreatment of women in India, for example – I think the reason people don’t post on such issues is simply that these things are universally condemned and hardly worth the effort of pointing out on a forum where it can be tacitly assumed most people are on the same page. What gets people’s goat here, I submit without a trace of faux-naivety, is those instances where there is a chasm between the cruel things the west does and the way they are laundered and perfumed by such organs as the BBC.”
“No I’m not, honest! I’d love to see Crab back.”
Ok, I believe you. 🙂
“It is so sad to see that, after all the courage and sacrifice by so many, Ireland’s sovereignty was handed over to the IMF and ECB less than 90 years later.”
Yes, it is sad. I voted against the EEC/EU in all referendums since 1973.
I still think the Eurozone will break up – they’re busy putting sticking plasters everywhere, but it’s not going to last. And I loathe the idea of a (forced) political union which would be the only thing that would save it.
I’m no economist but I have read quite a number who say the same.
I must awa’. Expecting visitors and if I don’t get my act together, they’ll be coming into a disreputable house.
@Ben. Thanks for prof. Levine’s take on Snowdens escape act and the media’s reaction to it.
He raises some impertinent questions nobody has yet put to the NSA.
For example ‘which are these 50 terrorist attacks that have been prevented through the NSA spy operation? or, why do we accept and foster support for Governments that are repressive and do repress their citizens?
Prof Levine ponders
“It’s hard to understand why almost no one, including The Guardian and Washington Post reporters who broke and have continued to spearhead the Snowden affair, has made the connection between the NSA’s activities and the more fundamental rationales and goals underlying American foreign policy.”
Which subtly brings us back to zapping comments. Firstly, my comments have been zapped/censored more than once by more than one newspaper, hence my skin has become accustomed to this reaction and I do not care whether I’m being deleted or not.
That this debate about who said what,when and why and the offences created, persons maligned has taken over every thread now, and we must realise how this chaos was created here, is all by design.
We must be really good at dissemination of information, why else such attention to us here.
But like everyone said its finished now and we can carry on, so….
lets talk Syria, the worlds media is churning out all sorts of silly figures about current death, how the Lebanon is affected, and how Syria is being supported by Iranian advisers and troops
It is screaming propaganda designed to bring public opinion behind the campaign for war in Syria, by any means. The industrial military complex and arms dealers of this world are rubbing their hands in glee, but, hold on…..
If there is a nuclear exchange, who will insure that this will not get out of hand? so our arms dealers will also perish, tough.
Lastly, those who believe that they will listen to the voices of their own children? think again.
Back to the UN….
Susan Rice obviously does not see that she is herself a stain on the UN.
Susan Rice: “History will judge harshly” the UN’s inaction on Syria.
Susan Rice has called the UN Security Council’s inaction on the Syrian war “a stain” on the body, in final remarks as US ambassador to the organisation.
She criticised Russia and China for vetoing three resolutions that would have increased pressure on Syrian President Bashar al-Assad.
But the US envoy said the post had been “the best job I’ve ever had”.
~~~
I just heard the dreg ends of Gideon’s new austerity packages.
Welfare claimants will have to be able to speak English to claim benefits was just one of his petty rulings.
Osborne announces spending review 2013: Politics live blog
Live coverage of George Osborne announcing the 2013 spending review, and David Cameron and Ed Miliband at PMQs
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/blog/2013/jun/26/osborne-spending-review-2013-live
Bercow has just hauled him over the coals for unparliamentary behaviour. It is a pity that the opposition in the form of Balls is so weak and useless.