GCHQ and the NSA between them employ tens of thousands of people. I am bemused by the shock at the “revelation” they have been spying. What on Earth did journalists think that spies do all day? That includes electronics spies.
Since Katherine Gun revealed that we spy on other delegations – and the secretariat – within the UN building, it is hardly a shock that we spy on other governments at summits in the UK. For once, the government cannot pretend that the object is to save us all from terrorism, which is the usual catch all excuse. Nor in the real world is any of the G20 nations a military threat to the UK. The real truth of the matter is that our spies – GCHQ, MI5 and MI6 – are themselves a large and highly influential interest block within the state. Lots of people make a great deal of money out of the security state, and this kind of activity is actually simply an excuse for taking money from taxpayers – which is from everyone who has ever bought anything – and giving that money to the “security industry”.
I do not view spying on other governments as quite as despicable as spying on ordinary citizens, which is an unspeakable betrayal of the purpose of government. Spying on other governments is a game they all play to extort money each to their own security elites. But I will say that spying on the South African government seems pretty low. Why?
Interception of diplomatic communications is plainly a gross breach of the Vienna Conventions, even if the forms of communication have changed since they were drafted. I have never studied the particulars of international law as they relate to spying, but it seems to me an area that in the modern world needs regulation. There must be room here for the UN to be involved in preparing a Convention to outlaw the interception of international communications, with recourse to the International Court of Justice for those victim of it.
There is more work for the UN on Syria. We should all be grateful that Russia is holding out against the very dubious western claims that the Syrian government has deployed chemical weapons. But while Obama can declare all the red lines he wishes, they do not give any country a right to take action on Syrian soil without UN authority. That needs to be restated, strongly. There is no basis at all for the continued and massive Israeli attacks on Syria – they are absolutely illegal. Israeli strikes have definitely killed more people than the alleged deaths from chemical weapons. Can someone explain to me why that is not a red line?
The UN Secretary General should be speaking out, and the UN Security Council should be meeting, to discuss the Israeli attacks on Syria. The system of international law has broken down irretrievably.
@Villager, you are being a complete bore with your sock-puppeting obession; I think everybody apart from you realised that Sofia Habber/Kibo Noh were light-hearted creations aimed solely at a bit of teasing of your new best pal; even after this was explained to you by the person concerned, you still didn’t get it.
The last person pulled up for sock-puppetting, was your very own new best pal, only the difference was that his alto-ego wasn’t a fun poking light-hearted type, but a nasty anti-Semitic one.
I understand Villager’s concern. There is too much push-back against the intuitive responses we don’t agree with. He wants a level playing field. He feels there is a bias. Whether or not correct in that conclusion, it’s still possible to perceive a bias. I think he has courage to defend the indefensible. Pyrrhic victories sometimes matter, in the long run.
“First they came for the………….”
If people could just control the impulse to respond to those they think are verklempt. Ignore, ignore and ignore. If they don’t get a response, and their motive is to require responses, they will just go away.
“he has courage to defend the indefensible”
Sorry Ben, but that’s not “courage”, it’s… well let’s just say that his village is missing him !
Jon, Stay Strong, looks like the Blog needs you more than ever, I suspect a lot of posters Knew it would come to this after just a couple of months of its arrival.
It’s really strange to be here, with commenter’s posting Links to the worst evils imaginable, some with warnings not to watch ( advice taken )
there’s most of us Screaming about the evils of our very own politicians at work ( illegal Wars, torture Ect ) Blair, Obama, Cameron And the rest
Then we have this petty little war on this very Blog, on almost EVERY thread now. Once the Choosing of Sides has Ossified ???
i tend to think that without a wee bit of Humility – intelegence is irellevant, intellect is Nothing
For example, i reckon that the ruling Elite OWN all the intelegence that matters, To them…we are allowed things like Sky sciences and other Diversions as a side show
But one thing we Know the Ruling Elite are not interested in, and that’s their fellow humans
And it’s Sad to see the Girls on here fighting Too
Any way ..Back on Topic here a good put down of msm coverage of Snowy
Unfazed by polls showing that half of the American rabble — I mean, public – believe Snowden did a good thing by leaking documentation of NSA spying, TV news panels have usually excluded anyone who speaks for these millions of Americans. Although TV hosts and most panelists are not government officials, some have a penchant for speaking of the government with the pronoun “We.”
After Snowden made it out of Hong Kong to Russia, New York Times journalist and CNBC talking head Andrew Ross Sorkin expressed his frustration: “We’ve screwed this up, to even let him get to Russia.” By “we,” he meant the U.S. government.
Last time I checked, Sorkin was working for the Times and CNBC, not the CIA or FBI.
JEFF COHEN
http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/06/27/snowden-coverage/
Just in and skimmed thruogh the days posts.
@Jon. 1 06pm
Thanks for explaining your approach to us at such length. And “Ouch! For the zappings that came my way.
……………………
@A Node. 11 24pm
Thanks for pointing out , dare I say, for slow learners among us.
“He often flags up his alter egos as being his own creations”
I know I broke blog etiquette, but I sought from the start in early May to make clear that Sophie/Sofia and Kibo were comic creations whose intention was simply as you point out “to deflate a bullying windbag with humour.”
I don’t know what to think of the fact that some of the grown-ups took, and still take Sofia so seriously.
I loved the cross little girl and I’m a little frustrated now that she is officially retired that I can no longer channel her chiding her “Dad”. I can remember so well the child I was so long ago looking at the antics of the adults around me and wanting to scream at their pompous hypocracy. Once awoken in me,she took on a life of her own, and still tugs at me to give her a voice.
……………………
So.
@Villager. 10 54pm
Please believe me. The world is not cursed with another of my creations. I was nowhere near technology when David posted.
Let’s give him a break and see what he has to offer the blog. You never know, he might get up my nose just like I get up yours, then you’ll have the last laugh.
And let’s give Jon a break too. He has a rotten job to do cleaning up after us. You must have seen I get zapped too when I go too far, so we know I’m not immune to his attentions.
I give you my word, I will only use the Kibo moniker from now on.
And I invite Jon to zap without mercy if I break that promise.
Peace.
Kibo; Had you consulted me prior to your blind dive into the water, I’d have regaled you with tales of having multiple nyms over the past 9 years. Some of them still come up as default identities as it did with Craigs site (an avatar which I don’t deserve but will try to apply in my style and content) and i accept them out of an urgent need to expunge the latest epithet and continue the identity confusion.
Stick to one. It’s better for all.
@Ben. 2 00am
As I promised Villager……”I give you my word, I will only use the Kibo moniker from now on. And I invite Jon to zap without mercy if I break that promise.”
“…. and still tugs at me to give her a voice.”
It’s not your fault, Kibo. With the upbringing she’s had, who can blame Sophie for running away. Maybe, once she’s got her head together, she’ll write you a letter to pass on to her Dad.
This comment marked for deletion?
@A Node – I only throw punches at those who throw them first. Maybe you don’t see others’ punches when they are subtle or you are in general agreement with the comment or the poster. Jon is clearly blind to many. XXXX XXXXXXX is the perfect example of a consistently offensive poster with his false accusations of (and obsession with) “racism” and “minge in a jar” jokes. I can read the tacit approval in others’ comments and in the (lack of) moderation.
And XXXX’s intolerance of criticism is something to behold. She’s lost allies after hissing at their polite criticisms, slips personal insults into her RSS feeds and then plays the hapless victim of harrassment when people reply. Despite her protestations, she invokes Habbabkuk’s presence like Alladin summoning a genie. Don’t let anyone fool you into thinking that her sex, age, political disposition and premium membership here has nothing to do with her preferential treatment.
I have ignored *many* offensive posts directed at me because I do not wish to clutter this blog with an endless exchange that has no logical conclusion. Often, I will take two punches for every one that I throw – ie active de-escalation. Having the last word is not particularly important to me.
Whether you read my comments, skim them or ignore them altogether, I am not here to please or merely serve as an echo of someone’s thoughts.
. . . .
Villager has properly raised the issue of sock-puppeting and despite being perfectly correct in his observations of this problem, and consistent with prior discussions, is ignored and now criticised. Attempts have been made to justify or apologise for two recent examples of sock-puppeting and I cannot help but see the very obvious bias in those justifications. If deception is not the purpose of sock-puppeting, then what is? Are we all free to have multiple aliases on this blog? On what terms?
I also suspect that this climatic crackdown on commentary has its origins in the Habbabkuk vs XXXX dynamic – XXXX’s untiring need to post tedious volumes of news reports with sneeringly tendentious and impertinent observations garnishing her comments; and Habbabkuk’s persistent challenging of her posts and to a lesser extent stabs at smugly leftist exchanges. Many quarrels have branched from this dynamic thereby creating a growing pool of badwill. Indeed, two loose camps in various support for either commentator seems to have formed in response and this, in my view, has compromised some of the commentary.
Put simply, if Habbabkuk and XXXX were to both go on vacation, I’m sure there would be a dramatic change in the tone of this blog. Having said that, I think Habbabkuk’s comments are often valid and generally polite if somewhat narrowly focussed.
But to characterise any comments as disruptive is laughably self-serving. Disruptive of what? Obviously, it is disruptive of someone’s enjoyment of not being challenged on the contents of their comments.
climaCtic, perhaps.
@A Node 2 57am
Pure genius.
“Maybe, once she’s got her head together, she’ll write you a letter to pass on to her Dad.”
Your suggestion prompted me to check my psychic in-box and there, sure enough, beneath a rather wobbly pink piece of ectoplasm, was a pile of letters.
I’ve a lot to do today so I can’t go thruogh them right now to remove the offensive bits.
I’ll just edit and post the most recent one.
……………………………………..
“Dear Kibo,
Why are you ignoring me?
@Jemand. 5 15am
“If deception is not the purpose of sock-puppeting, then what is?”
Grown-ups! You couldn’t make them up.
When they’re that easy to fool no wonder they swallow all those false narratives.
Raging, as usual,
Sofia Z-H
XXX”
………………………………………….
Got to go.
Have a great day in the blogosphere guyesses and guys.
“And XXXX’s intolerance of criticism is something to behold.”
Jemand,
I agree with a lot of what you say. But also, I had a thought last night which may be relevant. XXXX doesn’t interact with other commenters, doesn’t debate, doesn’t discuss, doesn’t chat, doesn’t joke. Remains aloof, and I strongly suspect, doesn’t even read others’ comments, unless they mention/criticise XXXX specifically. In which case, if it’s criticism, they get a snippy response.
Given what she said recently about an email from the blog owner, it seems to me that her ‘tedious volumes of news reports’ are not for the benefit of other posters here at all. They’re exclusively for the blog owner. Either looking for kudos, or in the hopes that an item will be used as the basis for a blog post (which happened once in the past irrc). Or some other ‘recognition’. (Komodo accused me of seeking approbation from Habbabkuk, and he was so off the mark it’s downright funny.)
Several suggestions have been made about a separate thread – a Chat thread, or a Miscellaneous thread. I would propose a ‘News’ thread, where anyone can post items of News that catch their attention. Readers could go there as and when they please, or post their own news items from their favourite sources. Whatever.
I think it would be much better than the indiscriminate sprinklings we get in every other thread, thrown in with no consideration of the discussions that are going on.
You said,
“I think Habbabkuk’s comments are often valid and generally polite if somewhat narrowly focussed.”
I agree. And for Macky of all people to say, “well let’s just say that his village is missing him!” was (as my mother used to say) ‘beyond the beyond’ … Macky’s not too bright IMO. And I doubt if he’s even sussed the number of female posters here. There are more than he imagines.
I was interested in what Jon said about deleting v editing comments. Deleting leaves them there, sort of, but not visible. Whereas editing (and putting a Mod comment in its place) removes the original comment entirely. I still think I prefer the old system, where the Mods removed a comment and edited to put in a note saying why. The commenter’s name was left in place, and the reason for deletion was given. This makes it far easier to see where one’s comment has been removed, and how many comments from which poster have been removed. And also, crucially, a reason is cited.
Jemand, Dreoilin, Villager:
You are missing/avoiding the point.
The point is that Craig, Jon and the majority of people on this blog don’t want to read so much personal invective. It’s distracting, childish, negative, energy-sapping, and ultimately boring. You haven’t been singled out for special treatment because your views are unpopular, it’s because you overdo the personal stuff. This is mainly a political blog. Imagine what you would say about politicians who behave like you do …. “I believe the right honourable gentleman is a bit of a smart arse.” “Objection, Mr Speaker, the record will show that it is in fact my opposite number who is the smart arse, and further ….”
No-one here can be in any doubt about your views on XXXX. Now let’s please move on.
“The point is that Craig, Jon and the majority of people on this blog don’t want to read so much personal invective.”
Perhaps, in that case, numerous people on this blog should have avoided flinging so many insults at Habbabkuk, since it probably gave rise to the “personal invective” that you talk about.
Perhaps you’re right, but whatever, the invective has escalated to the point where something had to be done about it … and Jon’s done it. We all need to take a deep breath, remember what it was that originally attracted us to this blog, concentrate on that, and exercise some self-restraint. Infighting only benefits the enemies of this blog.
Dreoilin, you beat me to the punch. We are SO on the same page re XXXX. She is very proudly aware of her special mission on the this blog (as per C’s expectations) and the intergoogle in general – fighting against the forces of tyranny, injustice, occasional genital obscenities and caged chickens. 007 would have known her as an alphabetic symbol (M is taken, alas) or some double OOOH! number. Maybe we could just refer to her as X.
A mature person finds a little humility in introspection. But one must be self-aware first.
A Node, thanks for the timely reminder that majority rules.
Dear Dear Dreoilin,
I am so, so tempted to expose virtually every word that you write for the shallow & hypocritical inversion of reality that it is, but out of respect for Jon’s recent request to tone things down, I will just leave your agreement of Jemand’s “I think Habbabkuk’s comments are often valid and generally polite”, hanging here in the air for all to behold & marvel at, with the challenge to find any responses to anything Mary has ever posted that compare to;
“@ Habbakuk,
That’s a really bad post you directed at Mary earlier.
You may disagree with her-fine- but the latter tone of your post was ugly,personal and,as i read it,almost sinister in its personal dimension.
Who the fuck do you think you are?”
A reaction from his very first ever thread participation, and to
““Trying to stir the pot here by using horrific child abuse as leverage is beneath contempt”
A reaction from his very latest thread participation.
I could easily provide countless more examples of other Posters reactions to the Troll’s deliberate & ugly baiting, but I think even you will get the point.
Macky, do go on. Jon has stated that there is no censorship here, so please elaborate if it adds value to your comment.
So how would you like it to be, Jemand? Anybody can post anything they like as often as they want?
You see there he is again calling Habbabkuk a Troll. What an angry, frustrated man he is. I suspect his frustration arises from the fact that he is an intellectual pygmy imho compared to the ‘Troll’. As M3X backs off a little bit M4X is trying hard to step in as the Lead Pretender to carry the baton. He even started a signature campaign here to BAN Habbabkuk — he managed to enlist a couple of sock-puppets, fell flat on his face and is still to realise what a fool he made of himself. If he thinks he’s going to pull down Habby he’s probably got more high-jumps coming over his head.
See http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/06/pandering-to-racism/comment-page-2/#comment-415210
As a matter of record, Habbabkuk a long time ago suggested the restraint of unparliamentary language on this blog.
All kinds of stuff has been thrown at him but he has always responded, argued and challenged as distinct from childish reactions. Especially so once he toned down with M3X towards whom he had some valid substantive concerns of flogging the blog and as Dreolin quite rightly points out without really engaging with commenters. itself
By definition, the majority of people here are not here to debate objectively. They just want to point out look how terrible all this is and they want you to agree without debate. Any debate is immediately classified as bait. They bring with them their baggage of history, knowledge and wear their armchair activism on their sleeves. They think they can change the World without changing in themselves.
Jemand, as you say “A mature person finds a little humility in introspection. But one must be self-aware first.” What a loser. I’m going to stop here because i shall disengage with M4X for the moment as i can’t suffer fools especially those that have a rather juvenile sense of humour.
LOGIC IS BEAUTIFUL!
(HELPS CATCH SOCK-PUPPETS ESPECIALLY THOSE WALKING AROUND WITH BOTH HANDS AROUND TROLL-HANDBOOKS!)
(A NODE TRIES HIS BULL-SHIT ME THAT I WAS THE LAST TO FIND OUT! FUNNNEEE!)
CENSORSHIP IS NOT OBJECTIVITY
A GOOD LAUGH IS GOODNESS ITSELF!
@Jemand, I would positively relish engaging with you, but I will not, because a) respect for Jon’s plea for calm, & b) will be away for the W/E, so would appear rude to leave any of your responses answered.
Villager; “A GOOD LAUGH IS GOODNESS ITSELF!”
And thank goodness you certainly provide many a good laugh ! LOL !!
Agreed, this thread is a mess. By now, anyway. (I think Craig said not so long ago that most visitors don’t read the comments anyway, so maybe that’s no harm.)
I’ll just repeat my suggestion:
“Several suggestions have been made about a separate thread – a Chat thread, or a Miscellaneous thread. I would propose a ‘News’ thread, where anyone can post items of News that catch their attention. Readers could go there as and when they please, or post their own news items from their favourite sources. Whatever.
“I think it would be much better than the indiscriminate sprinklings we get in every other thread, thrown in with no consideration of the discussions that are going on.”
A Node, I’ve already posted a suggestion in relation to self-regulation. As for ‘majority rules’, that’s fine in a democracy, which this blog isn’t – more of a benign dictatorship subject to infrequent uprisings and agitation for reform.
Realpolitik tells us that power requires no justification. And since the politics on this blog is a microcosm of the real world, within the real world, power wielded here ultimately requires no justification – whether that be Craig’s, Jon’s, mine or yours.
So you understand that, in the absence of a codified guide to posting comments, I will conduct myself as I will, with or without the approval of others so long as I am able to do so.
PS – Dreoilin, I agree with your suggestion insofar as it is practicable to implement.
And if it’s worth saying, then it’s worth saying twice.
I can’t find it, post a link please. As it happens, self-regulation is my preferred option too. In fact it’s the only viable option. Let’s compare.
Oh dear!
Israel’s chief rabbis snub leader of Anglican Church
Archbishop Justin Welby was to meet Rabbis Shlomo Amar and Yona Metzger during his visit to Israel, but between house arrest and a visit to Spain, he had to make do with Rabbinate officials.
by Yair Ettinger
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israel-s-chief-rabbis-snub-leader-of-anglican-church.premium-1.532452
Metzger anyway is under investigation.
Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi Yona Metzger questioned on suspicion of money laundering, bribery
The chief rabbi is also suspected of theft and breach of trust; three others also also arrested in connection with the case.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/top-chief-rabbinate-official-questioned-on-suspicion-of-money-laundering-bribery.premium-1.531053
Bad timing Justin.
A Node
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/06/work-for-the-un/comment-page-5/#comment-415254
The settlers move in and in no time we have a push for new regulations and code of conduct?
WTF gives?
Why should the existing status quo and the current state of this blog ought to be challenged?
Who is to benefit form the changes that are proposed?
The notion of involving the mod every other post/second/thread is itself a reason for those who have summoned the said mod, these ought to be banded their ban the fuck out of this blog!
There is tolerance and liberalism then there is whining mendacity. The fact that we all know the modus operandi of the ziofuckwits who are too busy batting for the “home team”, and fighting the good “keyboard fight” remorselessly, which entails gaming any system and the rules thereof with sole intentions; to suppress any kind of dissent from the group think established by the owned medjia.
The simple fact is, those constantly summoning the mod, ought to be told; this is no fucking kindergarten here survive or fuck off. As for those interacting with these miscreants, they must prove the irrelevance of these trolls, and not get engaged in any kind of interaction with the said trolls.
It is a simple deduction these trolls have every thing to gain from fucking up this blog in the corner of the cyberspace in the absence of this “achievement”, they have everything to lose through endangering the sanitised group think that is passed as “conventional wisdom” and readily open to be unclean and infected by the “deviant thoughts” of those of us commenting here in this blog by not buying into the dog and pony show so much promoted as the Truth and nothing but the truth.