What we are seeing in Egypt is counter-revolution pure and simple, military hardliners who are going to be friendly with Israel and the US, and are committing gross human rights abuse.
Western backed counter-revolution is going to be sweeping back across the Middle East; do not be distracted by the words of the West, watch the deeds. It will of course be in the name of secularism. There is an important correlation between what is happening in Turkey and Egypt. I made myself unpopular when I pointed out what the media did not tell you, that behind the tiny minority of doe-eyed greens in the vanguard of the Istanbul movement, stood the massed phalanxes of kemalist nationalism, a very ugly beast. “Secularism” was the cry there too.
The same title of your previous post can be reused.
You have this all arse about tit. The Egyptians have removed the Western created Muslim Brotherhood stooge for the continued blockade of the Gaza strip and for openly supporting the terrorists attempting to destabilise Syria. Turkey’s Erdogan worked this out afte popular dissent and immediately stopped assisting in Syria’s destruction, which is why CIA efforts are now centred on Jordan.
Then again, you are someone who seem to believe the media provided accounts of the lives of Assange and Snowdon, instead of recognising blatant media hype which has no substance. Anyone that knows a jot about intelligence agencies knows that it is impossible for anyone, let alone a part-time contractor like Snowdon, to have a full list of US overseas agents as he claims. He’s well publicised procrastinations, accusations and claims are beyond believable, which is why no nation is taking him in.
If you learn some decent history you will understand today’s events much better. Why not start with the history of the Muslim Brotherhood, see how it has been run and controlled by one Western intelligence agency after another since it’s founding in the 20’s by the British intelligence services. See how many times the entire leadership has been executed or assassinated only to rise up again like a phoenix, ready to provided a casus belli whenever needed. In fact, that is the template for the vast majority of these Western created, funded and controlled ‘terrorists’, from the Muslim Brotherhood of the 20s to Al Qaeda of the 90s.
Before any crisis there is the subversion of the indigenous culture.
The irony is that agencies which contrive subversion, in order to supplant the present culture with their own, also help their opponents reassert the old regime with even more gusto; turning a corrupted regime into a totalitarian one.
Benazir Bhutto tried to ‘stabilize’ Afganistan after the Russians withdrew, by unleashing the Taliban. What we are seeing in Egypt is a competition between the ‘stabilizing’ forces: those who want to rule via the cleric, verses those who want to rule by the clerk. Either way it’s the difference between Sodom or Gomorrah.
I made myself unpopular when I pointed out what the media did not tell you, that behind the tiny minority of doe-eyed greens in the vanguard of the Istanbul movement, stood the massed phalanxes of kemalist nationalism, a very ugly beast. “Secularism” was the cry there too.
Excuse me, but “secularism” has been the cry in Turkey for the last eighty years. It’s an article of faith. Erdogan’s move to the religious zone is as much as anything due to the consistent refusal of the EU to grant Turkey’s human rights infringements the same indulgent smile with which it treats other acceding states. He has to look East for markets, and to do that, he has to look nonsecular. It will be to the West’s ultimate disadvantage to have a Turkic power bloc with Islamist sympathies, true, but the West has encouraged this in every way possible to date.
“Massed phalanxes”…rather like talking about the “massed phalanxes” of Brits who eat MacDonalds. Or those in the 1950’s who believed Britain was a major world power; the superiority of Kemal’s vision is absorbed via mother’s milk and a rather efficient Gove-style education system.
I would not dare make snide remarks about Kemal in Turkey – not so much because it is actually illegal to do so, but because any random citizen in whose hearing I uttered the insult would likely perform some rough justice of his own, with the approbation of most of his neighbours. Spontaneously.
Although still off limits in the UK press it is widely known, and even officially acknowledged to some extent via references to ‘steak knife’ and his revelations, that Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams were working for MI5 whilst running both wings of the IRA. Does that tell you anything? Can you work it out? Can you see the lengths the UK went to to prevent a popular movement for Irish reunification from taking hold, they created the IRA to discredit those legitimate calls by associating them with violence and murder and said they had to stay there to protect the ‘loyal’ population. This is how governments operate.
This article claims that the cause of the riots in Turkey were brought about by a plan to turn the last green park in Istanbul into a shopping mall with mosque. Now I do know there are no shortages of mosques in Istanbul.
http://newsjunkiepost.com/2013/06/24/turkeys-unrest-a-fight-for-secularism/#sthash.5ZBK4uXT.dpuf
“The protests were touched off by the news that the government variously planned to erect a replica of Ottoman-era military barracks, a shopping mall and mosque in Taksim Square, where Istanbul’s last green space is located in Gezi Park.”
My opposition to the persecution of Islam, which is a very serious issue, is often spoken. But who is best-placed to take Turkey forward, Erdogan or a secular opposition, I don’t know. While I agree that the Neocon-Zionists are happy so long as unrest is fomented all over the middle-East, there is nothing to rule out the same kind of grass-roots student movement being behind the Turkish demonstrations, as there were in Tiananmen Square and Kent State University.
Good to see UKIP has ideas beyond their more familiar EU-containment objectives
http://www.publicserviceeurope.com/article/3677/with-syria-cameron-is-following-blairs-folly-in-iraq#comment
@Tech Savage
Is it as controlled and contrived as you suggest or could be we are simply over egging the mix to suit our taste?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinegar_tasters
Thanks for you opinions.
Oh no, we can’t have Egypt enjoying friendly relations with Israel and the US. Far better they sacrifice another 5,000 to 10,000 of their young men every now and again in a pointless war.
Can human rights abuses in the name of secularism be any worse than the human rights abuses carried out in the name of sharia law as that increasingly appears to be the alternative?
Current situation in the mid east is similar to the sixties’ Latin America. The counter revolution to the Colour Revolution is designed only to further entrench Mubarak brand of leadership, that was deviated from by the Mursi crew. No deviation from the path can be tolerated, hence Mursi is paying the price, he is back in the jail, and his Islamic Brotherhood is back on the hit list, as it used to be.
Our sycophantic corporate media have reported the carefully choreographed “neo revolution” along with package showing the stooges waving photos of the general in chief, and passed it on as “Revolution” again! The simple fact that Mursi was elected by plebiscite post the 1st colour revolution, and now he has been kicked out in the act two of the revolution going a “neo”.
– – – – –
Tech Savage said;
Muslim brotherhood have been around in Egypt for a long while, since 1928. Although it has always been persecuted in Egypt based on the zero tolerance doctrine of any perceived opposition to the good old Western brand “Capitalism” (more like Plutocracy, letting few lottery winners at random to share the wealth, now and then).
The earlier Arab Spring itself was a “colour revolution”, that is now further refined; Mubarak is gone, long live the Generals. The simple fact that Mursi had to borrow from Qatar because he could not borrow from anywhere else, is the roots of his denouncement of the Syrian government.
Further, careful sifting of the corporate media reports, clarify, chief among the Mursi deviance was; appointing a governor to Luxor, whom in his youth had attacked tourists with stones and rocks, as well as taking other uncalled for measures that the Western powers did not like very much; presto he is kicked out!
@ Jay:
You forgot the ladies…
http://data.ukiyo-e.org/mfa/images/sc202866.jpg
Komodo, looks more like dragon-soup than vinegar!
Well I am shocked, shocked I tell you, Shocked as Shocked can be; I am a prophet, I can foretell the future, as I have found out:
Egypt’s military issues arrest warrants for Muslim Brotherhood
Mind the Generals were a bit slow off the mark, it took them nearly twelve hours before they started shoving the Bredas back into their cells. Democracy indeed has arrived back on the land of the Pharaohs!
I hope you will laugh at this as much as I did:
We have to recognise new Egypt regime
Billy fourteen pints talking out of both sides of his mouth, or is that; both his mouths?
Can human rights abuses in the name of secularism be any worse than the human rights abuses carried out in the name of sharia law as that increasingly appears to be the alternative?
Funny you should mention that. This was released yesterday.
http://unispal.un.org/unispal.nsf/47d4e277b48d9d3685256ddc00612265/bc81fa86c7f41f6385257b9d0049448a?OpenDocument
Abuses are abuses, and are carried out by all jurisdictions. There’s no moral high ground.
I am glad that an Islamist government has been put out of business. I hope that the next one to be elected will not be dominated by the MB, who would try to introduce an Islamist constitution.
Kemal nationalism is indeed an ugly beast, but the fact remains that Taksim Square was going to be redeveloped without adequate public consultation. It is an important central public space. The government made a serious mistake. It is a pity that it did so, but it did so. It will have to be more careful in future, and it knows it.
Billy fourteen pints talking out of both sides of his mouth, or is that; both his mouths?
Tactful of you not to mention forked tongues, Passerby. I appreciate that.
Me, I’m thinking the print media need a special font for Hague’s pronouncements. You can read it from left to right, or you can read it from right to left.
You are welcome Komodo, don’t mention it, and your font suggestion ought to be heeded wherever/whenever Billy fourteen pints is busy making pronouncements.
Boy they are all at it this morning:
Obama on little bit of a
coupEgyptian leader’s ousterIs that because:
The working link:
Obama on little bit of a
coupEgyptian leader’s ousterBilly Hague is full of sh*t. On Democracy Now, the military road map was explained thus: 1) remove elected leader, 2) destroy the nascent constitution, c) install nice man in military uniform on a ‘temporary’ basis.
I believe this is otherwise generally known as a ‘coup’. Marx would call it a counter-revolution perhaps, but let’s not get too hung up on descriptions. It’s a bunch of military types taking over, and they aren’t generally the most trustworthy bunch, are they? This isn’t to justify the rule of Morsi, and to denigrate the genuine bravery of the Egyptian people on the streets, it just merely looks like the Egyptian military are playing the long-game – and Billy Hague will support them to the hilt. As usual.
It must be remembered that Morsi was unable to take off as President until Killery Clinton flew into Cairo and uprooted Tantawi overnight as Head of the Egyptian Army. In effect the Great Satan has engineered a “heads I win,tails you lose” coup of its own! A dead give away will be the transfer of Mubarak to better lodgings.
…military hardliners who are going to be friendly with Israel…
Morsi was pretty damn co-operative for an insane jihadi threat to all we hold dear, though, wasn’t he? Destroyed Gaza tunnels, moved the army into Sinai to deal with AQ elements, brokered the ceasefire after the last turkey shoot in Gaza. As much as the army did, and will, he needed the US hush money.
Nor is the coup entirely unforeseen – this from November last year:
Egyptians feel strongly about what they see as decades of suffering by the Palestinians at the hands of Israel. Their opposition to Israel runs deep after four full-blown wars with it in six decades. A resumption of Israeli attacks on Gaza, for example, could land Morsi in hot water with the Egyptian public.
Also, Morsi has to contend with growing criticism by critics that his preoccupation with Gaza pulled him away from pressing issues at home.
More than 50 children were killed last week when their school bus was hit by a train at a railway crossing in southern Egypt, an incident that led to charges of negligence against Morsi’s government. Street protests against his policies and the Brotherhood left one person dead and hundreds wounded in Cairo since Monday. Charges of illegitimacy now swirl around a panel drafting a new constitution after liberals and Christians pulled out in protest against the domination of the process by Morsi’s Islamist allies.
On top of that, Egypt announced Tuesday it reached an initial understanding with the International Monetary Fund for a $4.8 billion loan to kick-start the ailing economy. Egypt will have to reduce subsidies from basic items like fuel, risking social unrest over price hikes.
“Morsi’s popularity can’t go on eroding like this forever” without a backlash, said rights activist Mohsen Kamal. “He is vulnerable to dramatic and maybe even violent changes if he ignores what is happening.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/21/morsi-gaza-ceasefire_n_2173589.html
Tech Savage
4 Jul, 2013 – 9:31 am
“Anyone that knows a jot about intelligence agencies knows that it is impossible for anyone, let alone a part-time contractor like Snowdon, to have a full list of US overseas agents as he claims.”
Has Snowden claimed that?
Do you have any references?
Abe Rene
4 Jul, 2013 – 12:02 pm
“I am glad that an Islamist government has been put out of business. I hope that the next one to be elected will not be dominated by the MB, who would try to introduce an Islamist constitution.”
Sorry Abe but democracy is democracy; the people choose their government through the ballot box.
Do you believe that because the US/UK/Israel don’t like the election winners of a country they have a right to force out that elected government?
The same thing happened in Palestine when Hamas was elected; the same thing was attempted in Venezuela in 2002.
Democracy is considered a dangerous thing by the ruling corporate/political elites of the world.
A predictable counter revolution, so looks to me as though it’s all going to plan in Egypt. Things are well on track for the partition of the country.
Cross-posting from previous thread and off-topic – sorry, but I’d dearly love to hear other people’s take on this:
Bolivia has REJECTED a formal US extradition request for Snowden:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-07-04/bolivia-rejects-u-s-request-for-snowden-following-flight-detour.html
Note, too, that of the list of 21 countries that have applications for asylum from Snowden, the sidebar on this BBC article today says that only 4 have so far formally said No; the majority are fence-sitting, awaiting developments:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-23174874
Of which, there’s a good possibility some will come from the 12-nation bloc of UNASUR holding an emergency summit today, who can now co-ordinate a response as a strong enough bloc to resist trade threats. This letters page from the Guardian makes clear what Ecuador’s actual position is, as well as why so very many of those applications were aimed at European nations, who all have very compliant extradition treaties with the US – so it would seem odd at first – but who now, with the brilliantly timed stories of NSA spying on EU business, can be pressured to act as a bloc (which is clearly happening and having some effect – the US-EU trade treaty negotiations been completely disrupted):
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/sovereignty-stake-snowden-saga
There’s a VERY clever game of geopolitic chess being played here and, of course, it’s Wikileaks who are the ones who’ve been busy plotting all the Knight and Queen moves…
God, I would give my eye-teeth to know who exactly put out that *rumour* that Snowden was on Morales’ plane to be picked up by the intelligence services and kick off this unholy fuck-up in intercontinental political relations. Oh, what’s that you say? Ecuador found a bug in their London embassy three weeks ago…?
Ahahahahhahahhahahahhahahahha!
I think things are rather more complex – not to say convoluted – than Craig intimates. If secularism really is the Western ‘cry’ in Middle-Eastern affairs, how to explain what is going on in Syria?; or for that matter, how to explain the fact that medieval absolutist monarchies remain the bulwark of the West’s allies (and armaments customers) in the Middle East?
Fact is that the only ‘ism’ driving Western policy in the ME or anywhere else for that matter, is Machiavellianism, pure and simple, in all its evil. If the West can’t have a fawning, compliant government (of ANY political stipe) in place, why then engineered turmoil will serve its purposes nearly aswell (and the security/armaments industries handsomly) thank you very much. What absolutely cannot be tolerated is any government that declines to see things the West’s way.
Here’s Shamir Amin’s take on events in his country:
Samir Amin, Egyptian philosopher and economist, director of the Third World Forum in Dakar, talks about the last year in Egypt with the Brotherhood in power, interviewed by Giuseppe Acconcia.
On 30 June 2012, Mohammed Morsi took over as the Mubarak successor. However, on the occasion of the first anniversary of the Muslim Brothers’ victory when this interview took plave, bloody clashes broke out in the country.
Acconcia: What do you think about the Tamarod’s campaign?
Samir Amin: The Tamarod’s campaign for the Morsi dismissal is magnificent. Millions of people signed their names after giving deep political consideration to what they were doing: something totally ignored by the international mainstream media. They represent the majority of all the electoral constituencies, but they do not have any voice. The Muslim Brothers wield political power and like to think they can control 100% of the votes. Thus, they ensured members of the movement in every public sector. Their way of managing the country is informed by a type of crony capitalism which simply does not leave any room for the opposition figures and technocrats who had some power even in the Mubarak era.
A: This is happening during the worst economic crisis of recent decades
Samir Amin: There is more than an economic crisis. Islamists have only ultraliberal answers to give to the crisis: they have replaced the capitalists’ bourgeois clique that were Mubarak’s friends with reactionary businessmen. Moreover, their goal is quite simply to sell off public goods. The Brotherhood is hated by Egyptians because it continues with the same policies as its predecessor.
A: Maybe worse in the case of the Islamic Finance Bill?
Samir Amin: It is theft to attach derisory prices to goods that are worth billions of dollars. These are not the usual privatizations that reactionary regimes indulge in, selling off goods at their economic value. This is pure fraud more than a privatization.
A: Recalling the stages of this year with the Brotherhood in power – Morsi won after eight days of uncertainty and finally the elimination of the Nasserist, Hamdin Sabbahi, in the first round. Were the 2012 presidential elections manipulated?
Samir Amin: There was massive electoral fraud. Hamdin Sabbahi could have passed into the second round, but the US Embassy did not want it. European observers listened to their American diplomatic counterparts and turned a blind eye to the fraud involved. Moreover, the five million votes for Sabbahi were squeaky clean and highly motivated. On the other hand, the five million votes for Morsi came from the most wretched part of the population, devoid of political conscience: the votes of people willing to be bought off for a piece of bread and a glass of milk.
A: But would you agree that the sharpest clashes between the presidency and demonstrators broke out last November as a consequence of the presidential decree that extended Morsi’s powers?
Samir Amin: Morsi got going with a few weeks of demagogic speechifying, promising to listen to the other political contestants. After that, it soon became clear the extent to which the President was a puppet with the Gulf countries pulling the strings out of sight. He became a mere instrument of the murshid’s will – that of Mohammed Badie, Supreme Guide of the Muslim Brotherhood.
A: The historic support to the Palestinians had been shelved as well?
Samir Amin: The Egyptian Muslim Brothers support Israel, like the Gulf countries and Qatar do. They have always adopted an anti-Zionist discourse, but this was just an ongoing deception. The Qatari Emir, for example, is quite used to saying one thing and then doing the opposite, given the complete absence of public opinion. Now Egypt is supporting the worst type of opposition in Syria, as do the most reactionary western powers. The end result is that the majority of the western weapons furnished to the rebels are being used to finance the very worst outcome in Syria.
A: Is this why Morsi supported the creation of a Free Trade Area in the Sinai, favouring an economic relationship with Israel?
Samir Amin: This is a huge loss to Egypt. The effects of the new Free Trade Area will not be the imagined industrialization of the region, but the perpetration of a huge fiscal fraud. This will strengthen small mafias and the dismantling of public assets. In the end, the Brotherhood would accept all the conditions of the International Monetary Fund and the expected loan will accordingly come to fruition despite the fact that corruption and financial scandal have spread all over the country.
A: So how do you see the acceptance of the Constitution written by the Muslim Brotherhood, last December?
Samir Amin: This is a dictatorship of the majority. However, judges put up the strongest and indeed an unprecedented fight against the ratification of the constitutional referendum results. But it is clear that the ultimate goal of Freedom and Justice (the political party of the Brotherhood) is to build-up a theocracy on the Iranian model.
A: To conclude, is there anything left to preserve in this year of Morsi’s presidency?
Samir Amin: The lumpen proletariat is easily manipulated, and a fortiori would not obtain anything by the upheaval Morsi’s overthrow will bring. Moreover, the division of power the Brotherhood has with the army who is behind the scenes, ready to intervene, is full of ambiguity. The military personnel, as a class, are corrupt – a corruption guaranteed by American help, and carefully composed of segments of different classes, divided into political currents, many of them close to the Brotherhood and the Salafists.
However, with normal elections, with a period of democratic preparation, the Brotherhood will be beaten. But if this is not going to happen, next October there will be a more repressive climate and the vote will be manipulated by widespread falsification as happened on the previous occasion.
Craig, hope you are well. As someone married to a Turk, currently living in Turkey, and having lived inTurkey for 15 years on and off, I have say your analysis of the Gezi Park protests is so off the mark to be laughable! Happy to enter into a private discourse as to why your picture is so flawed.