What we are seeing in Egypt is counter-revolution pure and simple, military hardliners who are going to be friendly with Israel and the US, and are committing gross human rights abuse.
Western backed counter-revolution is going to be sweeping back across the Middle East; do not be distracted by the words of the West, watch the deeds. It will of course be in the name of secularism. There is an important correlation between what is happening in Turkey and Egypt. I made myself unpopular when I pointed out what the media did not tell you, that behind the tiny minority of doe-eyed greens in the vanguard of the Istanbul movement, stood the massed phalanxes of kemalist nationalism, a very ugly beast. “Secularism” was the cry there too.
“I think that I’ve shown that those ‘reasons’ are either irrelevant or erroneous”
Absolutely not. This mention of ‘irrelevant’ when all the rendered British Muslims in Guantanamo were innocent of any crime is nonsense. Did you read Moazzam Begg’s article.
http://www.cageprisoners.com/our-work/opinion-editorial/item/4002-from-bethlehem-to-belmarsh-abu-qatada%E2%80%99s-ordeal-in-britain
By the way, what do you understand by torturous? It is associated with the word torture. Look at the synonyms for meaning “a” and argue again.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/torturous
I give you facts. You give me irrelevancies.
Habbabkuk, tomorrow I will give you an early-morning call by which time you might have had time to reflect on your comments. Read them through again and ask yourself why others contributing to the blog do not want to engage with you. Life is good, but time is precious.
I entirely agree, John, that terrible injustices have been committed, and continue to be perpetuated by the USA and its allies, esp. the UK.
Talha Ahsan has spent many years in gaol without charge or trial while he fought against extradition and right now, is in Florence ‘Supermax’, USA in solitary confinment with no charges laid yet and his lawyers unable to see the ‘evidence’ against him. I mean, this is not due process! And many more. ‘Rendition’, black sites, this whole panoply of tossing out Habeas Corpus, it disgusts me and is a betrayal of everything countless millions have fought and died for over the ages.
Is it not naive to expect a Company man to own up, and fess up to his misdeeds?
The leftists inferred to were in fact the MKO (a communist group with leadership aspirations) that was in cahoots with anyone who opposed the leadership structures post the revolution. MKO also helped Saddam to attack Iran, as well as helping Saddam to suppress the Kurds in Iraq, and now are no longer on the list of terrorist organisations of the US (good terrorists) and are helping the US now.
Furthermore, it should be noted that MKO arranged for the bombing of the Prime minister’s office by one of its members who was in fact in the post of Secretary of Supreme National Security Council. During this bombing many scores of the top echelon of the leadership were assassinated. That is in addition to the constant machinations of the CIA to attack the residence of Ayatollah with mortars.
In the book referred to Dilip Hiro fails to mention that the information about Bani Sadr and CIA were gleaned from decoding the material found in the US embassy in Tehran. Bani Sadr can deny all he wants, but the decoded data points to his treason. Hence to find the treasonous scum bag being paraded as a hero who fought the big bad Muslims is only reinforcing the caricaturists view that seemingly these days are passed as “reasoned discourse”.
However, then to make the leap from one traitor and to latch onto another ne’er do well as Ab Qatada who has committed no crimes, as reflected in the absence of any trial, and conviction of the said ex “Most Wanted Man” in UK . That is despite the arbitrary arrest, and detention of Abu Qatada in lines with interment of the Northern Irish who were suspected of IRA membership. This can only be reflective of political persecution of those the government finds undesirable. However this is not the subject of any debate.
Ab Qatada may preach the same hate that many Rabbis preach, and the likes of Pamela Geller et al are so vociferously engaged in inciting hatred against . To single out only this “hate preacher” who has been out of circulation for the last twelve years, spending his time either in full detention or partial detention and house arrest and finally rendering him to Jordan with assurances that he will not be tortured smack of hypocrisy.
Then to find any kind of objection to internment practices are misconstrued as being in agreement with the “hate” that he preached is indeed a new low.
No, I was not talking about the MKO, FedUp.
Do you agree with Abu Qatada’s views and alleged actions, Fed Up? Best to be open about it, if you do.
You see demonstrated here as in most places today, it is either Right-wing imperialism or Right-wing religious supremacism, or apologetics for one or other of these positions, and nothing else is permissible.
A heart tugging wee story…Imagine we had to go through this every time we want to go to the seaside… or Ocean
Alicia Keys Versus Palestinian Youth to the Sea
“They headed out on Thursday, July 4th around 6:45am. I was waiting to receive them in Haifa. I got a call around7:20am stating that they were stuck at an Israeli checkpoint (permits in hand) and the soldiers were “checking the permits”. At 9:15am I call the driver and he tells me that the soldiers were refusing to let them pass and told them to go and try another checkpoint. At 9:50am they were turned away from a second checkpoint. At this point I am devastated. Not only do they have permission from Israel to come into the ’48 territories, but it’s 90 degrees outside and they had been up since 6:00am and on a coach since 6:30am. At 10:15am I hear that they have been turned away from yet another checkpoint. I called the center here in Haifa to see if they could help. By the time they got in touch with the offices that issue the permits, the children had been turned away at a fourth checkpoint. You can imagine the disappointment, many of them had lost hope. We kept pushing and the permit office finally gave us a fifth checkpoint to send them to, which they guaranteed they would pass them through with no problems. Its was 11:30am and the kids were made to get off the coach, were physically searched and had to walk 20 minutes to meet the coach on the other side of the checkpoint. As they boarded the coach again I could hear their joy through the phone as I spoke to the driver.
“They took hundreds of pictures of each other and were telling me that it was going to be their “profile picture on Facebook”. They asked me again “Are we going to the beach now?” and I just smiled, boarded them on the coach and headed down towards the sea. Now, the only problem we had was that Israel did not permit us to allow them to swim. They state “Non Israeli Citizens” are not allowed to swim at the beaches…of course, not meaning tourists but meaning Palestinians. The organization we were working with was worried and felt that because there were more kids than we expected that we shouldn’t let them swim for safety reasons. We took them to an area where its really for walking, somewhat of a promenade where there are huge rocks between the walkway and the sea. As soon as they stepped off that bus many of them ran and jumped straight over the rocks into the sea. I must admit, I really didn’t mind. Of course I didn’t want them to hurt themselves but I can swim and it’s not deep there, so I just let them do it. Who knows when they will be allowed out to visit the sea again?! I snapped a picture of 15 year old Khalil who had jumped in with his sneakers and jeans. He was collecting water and sand. His smile….the waves crashing on him and his laughter….made me really think about all the things we take for granted
http://www.existenceisresistance.org/archives/2818
@Jon
Independence might turn out all right, could very easily turn pear shaped.
Nothing is known. Even if people vote for independence they will not wake up next morning`to an independent Scotland. That’s when the horse trading starts and it would probably take years. Salmond might be telling people that the assets will be shared geographically and the liabilities per capita but there is little likelihood that will be what actually happens. He won’t be in any position to dictate terms.
It’s one big gamble, why would anyone using common sense want to take the risk?
These were the lefties that were rounded up post the revolution, along with Todeh party (another communist group). Fact is left have always been prone to manipulation of the right, as the history of their successive failures across the globe bear witness.
The history of Bani Sadr, and portraying him as the victim of the religious zealots, and their right wing imperatives; only reinforces the caricature image of Iran, and upon getting pulled up on it. Then there follows the feet stamping.
@John Goss.11 28pm
Re Habba,
“…ask yourself why others contributing to the blog do not want to engage with you. Life is good, but time is precious.”
I’ve been sucked in so many times myself and I’ve been watching your attempt today with some sympathy. It’s like trying to swim in treacle.
I swing between wanting to confront it and trying to ignore it. I’m clearly not alone. Sometimes it draws out plenty of facets worth looking at, but it’s hard work and as you say “time is precious.”
Sophie the sock-puppet was about the nearest I got to an appropriate response. An angry kid can deal with it in a a way that just doesn’t sit right with an adult. Pity about the copy and paste cock-up.
I like Habba’s complaint that Komodo was treating him as a dog treats a lamp-post. A good idea I think. Quick and effective.
Here’s Baba Maal – Mariama (Thank You)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjMqLSCOBIo
Goodnight.
I’ve joined this conversation re deportation of Abu Qatada belatedly but I can say it is a convoluted mess (the conversation). Many issues mangled into a single question – should Qatada be deported?
If someone were to separate and enumerate the salient issues, you might all be able to discuss them in a more orderly fashion. To this end, let me offer to start a list.
1. AQ entered, applied for and was granted asylum in the UK. Should the govt be free to refuse asylum seekers on the basis of character checks despite credible risks of persecution?
2. Should the govt be free to reverse an earlier grant of asylum based on subsequent security and criminality risk assessments?
3. Where should the govt stand on granting asylum to applicants who would be otherwise ineligible for entry due to actual criminality or credible risks of criminality?
4. How credible should claims of possible persecution or torture be to prevent a deportation?
5. How is the govt to enforce guarantees of fair treatment of deportees in destination countries?
6. AQ’s entry into the UK was technically lawful, how does this relate to the issue of refusal of entry to controversial figures such as ‘White Supremacists’ from the US? Many controversial figures are denied entry but not in relation to applications for asylum. The UK is required by law to give fair consideration to applications for asylum applications, not visitor visas.
7. Should AQ be free to conduct himself in *any* manner that is strictly lawful while residing as a refugee?
8. Should credible but unproven allegations of criminality or seriously improper conduct NOT factor into his eligibility for indefinite asylum?
9. How should the UK regard the use of their country as a safe haven for political activists? Should there be any limits?
Well, there were hundreds of thousands of people in the Tudeh Party. Many were executed by the mullahs. And many other Leftists and liberals (not just the Shah’s Right-wing monarchist people) were executed too.
Fedup, I agree with you about the demonisation of Iran. But I’m not sure why exactly you are seeking to argue that Far Right religious supremacism is not antithetical to Leftist political views/activity. I think that the history of the last 3+ decades demonstrates that it is antithetical.
Now, to repeat my very simple question: Do you agree with Abu Qatada’s views and alleged actions?
Good morning Habbabkuk. Join the discussion if you’re there. It is moving along quite nicely.
Kibo Noh, is that an admission that you are Sophie. If so some of those comments of yours were classic and so entertaining. Thanks.
Suhayl, Talha’s case is particularly disturbing. I have read his poetry, and prose. As writers ourselves we should stand side by side with imprisoned writers, especially those whose liberty has been taken away without just cause. It is why I set up the Facebook page which I urge all writers and other artists to join.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/371661099578187/?fref=ts
Correction: Well, wrt Tudeh Party, maybe thousands, not hundreds of thousands…
John, I do (stand side by side) with unjustly imprisoned writers and have written, and spoken, on Talha’s case and appeared side-by-side with his brother, Hamja, who has campaigned tirelessly.
More cruelty and inhumanity. No evidence of the words of Jesus.
‘And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.’
The Palestinians who live below the new fortresses on the hills have experienced this disgusting treatment by Israeli settlers for years and years.
‘Villagers in Wadi Fukin near Bethlehem were attacked by Israeli settlers from a nearby settlement, when they intentionally poured thousands of tons of sewage into the only natural water spring and the land.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=FZ4COu5rRBI#at=109
Omar Mahmoud Othman (Abu Qatada al-Filistini) was born in Bethlehem in 1960. What were his childhood experiences? It is difficult to discover from the internet. Nearly all entries about him are hostile. As a young child he would have experienced chaos and upheaval and seen death and injury as Israel’s Six Day War in 1967 was played around him and his people. Then Israel took the Gaza Strip and the Sinai Peninsula from Egypt, the West Bank and East Jerusalem from Jordan, and the Golan Heights from Syria.
I can remember the media coverage here of General Dayan as the heroic victor.
Some discoveries are to be made when listening to this.
‘As Abu Qatada leaves Britain, we talk to one of his childhood friends – plus the Jordanian former justice minister on what happens next.’ http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b036kvb6/Double_Take_07_07_2013/
4mins 50 secs in for 12 mins
@ John Goss
I’ll be travelling over the next few days. This should give you time to present your arguments as to why Mr Qatada should not have been deported. Please keep them to the specific case of Mr Qatada and do not bring other cases into the discussion.
Over and out for the moment.
@ Jemand (in haste, I’m afraid) :
“9. How should the UK regard the use of their country as a safe haven for political activists? Should there be any limits?”
_________
The European Convention on Human Rights specifically allows States Party to impose restrictions on the political activities of aliens in their territory.
Keep up the good work.
You’ll have noticed that the discussion with Goss is having difficulty in getting off the ground because he will simply not put forward reasons for which Mr Qatada should not have been deported, preferring instead to talk about anti-Muslim agendas and dragging other individuals into the so-called discussion.
This underlines something I noticed quite early on about most (but not all) of the regulars’ contributions to this blog, viz : they do not – or cannot – discuss. They will either evade, ignore or, when cornered, become abusive.
Just pointing this out, although most of the 99% will have already noticed for themselves 🙂
@ Suhayl
“Talha Ahsan, on the other hand, for example, in my view, has not had the benefit of proper due process.”
___________
I do not know this case and you may well be right. But this is irrelevant to the question of whether Mr Qatada should or should not have been deported, is it not?
One cannot say that Mr Qatada should not have been deported because someone else should not have been or was denied due process. It is simply meaningless…and evasive.
Flaming June, I notice that BBC report is a lot more balanced than many of the reports portraying Abu Qatada as a hateful “Muslim cleric”. Cameron and May, and their policy of generating hatred against Muslims, are the ones who ought to go.
Suhayl at 7.41 a.m. I have met Hamja too, and like you say he is a tireless campaigner. I feel so sorry for the Ahsan family. I also feel bitter towards my government for creating an atmosphere of hate that never existed at government level when I was younger. There were a few individual exceptions but they never made it to party leadership. Today the discrimination comes from the top and is poisoning the minds of the great mass of disinterested people who are content to wallow in apathy and “soap operas”.
The Spiegel interview with Edward Snowden, now on his way to……………..
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/interview-with-whistleblower-edward-snowden-on-global-spying-a-910006.html
This article argues that Germany could take him in, but Germany does not want to raise the wrath of the US such move would cause, a lack of will to stand up against the snooping bullies.
It would also reveal the extend the BND has cooperated with the NSA.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/venezuela-says-it-would-give-snowden-asylum-a-910200.html
Sounds familiar!
Military appointed Egyptian PM tells people: prepare for cuts.
Posted on July 10, 2013
According to The New York Times, the appointment of Hazem el-Beblawi as Prime Minister sends ‘a signal that the military-led transitional government intends to move forward with economic reforms and restructuring including reductions in the country’s vast public subsidies’.
el-Beblawi himself is quoted as saying that ‘We must create a clear understanding for the public that the level of subsidies in Egypt is unsustainable, and the situation is critical’, and that ‘The canceling of subsidies requires sacrifices from the public and therefore necessitates their acceptance’.
/..
http://interventionswatch.wordpress.com/2013/07/10/military-appointed-egyptian-pm-tells-people-prepare-for-cuts/
The descent into total anarchy speeds up.
10 July 2013 Last updated at 11:58
Muslim Brotherhood leader Mohammed Badie arrest ordered
Breaking news
Egypt’s prosecutor’s office has ordered the arrest of the leader of the Islamist Muslim Brotherhood movement, Mohammed Badie, state media report.
Mr Badie is accused of inciting the violence in Cairo on Friday in which at least 51 people were killed.
Several leading Brotherhood figures are already in detention and warrants have been issued for hundreds more.
It comes as the new interim president attempts to form a government after the overthrow of President Mohammed Morsi.
/..
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23256937
From Jonathan Cook, ex Guardian (he got out), who now lives with his Palestinian wife in Nazareth – within the belly of the beast as we say. He knows what he is talking about of course. Israel wants the whole lot.
Treatment of Palestinians is Apartheid by Any Other Name
by Jonathan Cook / July 10th, 2013
Were it not for the razor wire, giant concrete blocks, steel gates, watchtower and standard-issue surly teenage soldier, it would be impossible to tell at what point the barren uplands of Israel’s eastern Negev give way to the South Hebron Hills of the West Bank.
The military checkpoint of Shani vaguely marks the formal demarcation between Israel and occupied Palestinian territory, but in practical terms the distinction is meaningless. On either side of the Green Line, Israel is in charge.
In recent weeks it has been intensifying a campaign to evict Palestinian farming communities summarily from their ancestral lands to replace them with Jewish newcomers.
Israeli human rights lawyers, tired of the international community’s formulaic criticisms, say it is time to be more forthright. They call these “ethnic cleansing” zones – intended to drive off Palestinians irrespective of the provisions of international law and whether or not the Palestinians in question hold Israeli citizenship.
/..
http://dissidentvoice.org/2013/07/treatment-of-palestinians-is-apartheid-by-any-other-name/
Flaming June
9 Jul, 2013 – 1:03 pm
“If Blair approves of Miliband’s actions, as he did this morning on Sky, then you know Miliband is wrong.”
Yes, quit true.
Perhaps we should call him Ed Miliblair.
The Talha Ahsan case was raised on this thread by others, Habbabkuk, not by me (though I have raised it extensively elsewhere). So I felt I had to respond.
Also, Talha’s case has been linked to Abu Qatada’s by the ‘trial by media’; Talha often is mentioned as part of group of “others” in the same breath as Abu Qatada and it is this that is misleading and which needs cleared-up. Also, the sympathetic coverage given to the white hackers (who actually admitted they had done what they were accused of doing) was entirely different from the negative or omitted publicity given to Talha’s case. The families of Talha Ahsan and Gary McKinnon, for example, were actually mutually supportive, but Talha never gets mentioned in the same media breath as Gary McKinnon. This is likely to be the product of both deliberate and subconscious distortion by large sections of the media. Organisations like ‘Liberty’ were very quick and keen publicly to be seen to supporting the McKinnon family but much less eager – until a very late stage – to be seen doing the same with the Ahsan family.
So one cannot view these things in a vacuum and one might argue that to do so itself is “meaningless… and evasive”.
This line of discourse is so familiar! he nice man on the telly: “do you believe that Tony bLiar did not knowingly mislead the parliament”? This rhetorical line of questioning seeks no answers and only is designed to reinforce the assertions and assumptions of the questionnaire.
The fact we have not any first hand transcripts of Abu Qatada preachings,other than well managed clips aired so often in the mejdia, and so far as his actions goes, what has he done? Is only a matter for those whom knew Abu Qatada first hand and personally. Therefore, how can anyone agree with Abu Qatada’s actions, and views is not subject of the question, and instead the more direct; “do you agree with Abu Qatada?”
A- it is not far right.
B- it is not supremacist.
The socialist view is pretty well and alive in Iran. However because their brand of socialism is not the same brand as in the West somehow does not mean the Iranian politics are based on far right supremacist dogma. This fact is patently obvious through the constant demonetisation of Iran by the so called “capitalist” systems, and their covert war on Iran for the last four decades.
Suhayl at 6.49 pm. I think the person who Talha Ahsan has been most linked to is Abu Hamza, another Muslim cleric, the man with the hook. Abu Qatada made an appeal from prison for the release of British hostage and peace activist Norman Kember.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/jun/18/uksecurity.terrorism
He has also repeatedly called for the release of prisoners and and closure of Guantanamo Bay. I am trying to get information from the Home Office as to what his alleged crimes are.
Doug Scorgie at 1.23 pm. I think Miliblair is a very good name. Long before he attacked the union that paid for his passage to parliament (would you call it biting the hand that feeds you?) he had revealed his true colours to me. As a friend of Israel he forced Paul Flynn to apologise over questions Flynn raised regarding meetings between Werritty, Gould, et al (including Bro David) but the thing that showed me his true colours was after the death of Abdelbaset al Megrahi when Cameron said there would be no public inquiry over Lockerbie. Miliband agreed. They all sing from the same song-book.