What we are seeing in Egypt is counter-revolution pure and simple, military hardliners who are going to be friendly with Israel and the US, and are committing gross human rights abuse.
Western backed counter-revolution is going to be sweeping back across the Middle East; do not be distracted by the words of the West, watch the deeds. It will of course be in the name of secularism. There is an important correlation between what is happening in Turkey and Egypt. I made myself unpopular when I pointed out what the media did not tell you, that behind the tiny minority of doe-eyed greens in the vanguard of the Istanbul movement, stood the massed phalanxes of kemalist nationalism, a very ugly beast. “Secularism” was the cry there too.
“[Mod/Jon: excessive focussing on one particular poster, will continue to remove these]”
On the scales of balance should one not also place the excessive volume and randomness of one particular poster. Being bombarded left, right and centre, its only a normal human sensibility to be irritated to say the least. Hardly the spirit of the suggestion of choosing a topic and inviting discussion which might lead to some enlightenment.
John,, you’re correct, it was Abu Hamza. I guess my point was that one cannot simply view these cases exclusively through a legal prism. They are political cases on every level.
Fed Up, that’s true about Iran. There have been such elements since 1979.
Sadly, though, FedUp, it’s not been true of every other regime/configuration where Islamism has featured.
Like most of these florid Islamist UK-based mullahs, was Abu Qatada a UK security service asset? This would be no surprise, given the history.
http://www.nafeezahmed.com/2012/11/abu-qatada-asset-we-cant-get-rid-of.html
True! The saddest part is everyday many innocent people are subject to the most terrible abuses of their inalienable/god given human rights. The roots of this corruption is to be found in the leadership arrangements that are normally based on the political imperatives of the the sponsors of the charge hands who are to be put in charge of these benighted masses.
Bahrain, Qatar, Saudi, Jordan, Yemen, ….. the nationals of these countries have been systematically denuded from their rights, and their dignity to keep the oil flowing, keep the Western arms factories rolling out death machinery, and the banksters in the money.
The Islam-ism label so much bandied around is designed to destroy one of the very few avenues available to these masses to rid themselves form the tyranny of their ruling elite. The simple fact is, in almost all of these nations they have no longer any kind of organic opposition within their civil constructs. The oppostion has been systematically destroyed.
As we debate, the Egyptian Generals are hunting down the Muslim Brotherhood members and leaders, in line with other regimes in the area. Further, the extensive internal surveillance and oppression that is so extensively rooted in the governance of these countries. This makes it improbable for the trapped masses to organise in any fashion. The only mechanics of mass gatherings or mass actions are to be found in mosques and religious institutions. Hence the onslaught on all things “Islam-ist”. This is to hedge the longevity of the oil flow, in return for weapons and constructs of oppression, and most important of of all “interest payments/rent payments”.
@John Goss. 7 38am
“… is that an admission that you are Sophie.”
Yes. She turned up by accident but then took on a life of her own until I carelessly copied and pasted Kibo’s previous posting and outed her.
I’m glad she entertained you.
Kibo Noh, me too, glad she entertained me. Are you a playwright? I think you have a gift.
Suhayl, at 11.13. It would not surprise me. I’ve asked the question in my FOI request whether Abu Qatada was ever an asset but can pretty well guess the answer.
Have to Agree With John..Sophie was Brilliant…A child Prodigy for sure, Thank you Kibo Noh.
@John Goss. 12 07am
Thanks. Not everyone shared your opinions about her posts.
“Are you a playwright?”
No. Not much of a writer at all. But having experienced Sophia’s constant nagging at me to give her a voice I now have some understanding of how it must be for those with the gift.
She brought back to me such a vivid sense of the frequent bafflement and rage I felt around that age, at the antics of the grown-ups who lorded so pompously over my world.
The character that possessed me can maybe be explained by my life-long enjoyment of Tom Sharpe and many a happy evening spent reading Terry Pratchet’s wonderful books aloud to my kids.
@Brian. 12 36am
Thanks.
Maybe I’ll find a way to resurrect her without breaking blog etiquette.
Kibo Noh. You should bring her back. She keeps her wayward (and currently travelling) father in check.
Sorry Pratchett and Sharpe are too modern for us oldies.
Don’t mention the word ‘coup’ contd
‘US-Egypt fighter jet deal ‘on track’
The US is going ahead with plans to deliver four F-16 fighter jets to Egypt despite the political unrest in the country,senior American officials say.
It comes as Washington is continuing to evaluate last week’s overthrow of President Mohammed Morsi by the army.
US massive military aid to Cairo would have to be cut by law if the removal of the Islamist leader is determined by Washington to have been a coup.’
/..
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23265632
[Mod: removed an addendum here that commented on another poster – please stick to politics]
Sorry Pratchett and Sharpe are too modern for us oldies.
Speaking as a living fossil, I object. No-one is ever too old for Pratchett, and if anything Sharpe is unsuitable for the young. Start with “Small Gods” by the one and “Riotous Assembly” by the other. I defy you not to continue.
I can never forgive Kibo Noh for breaking this old dragon’s sentimental heart. When I learned that Sophie, to whom when she was old enough, I would gladly have plighted my reptilian troth*, was naught but a figment of the imagination, a cluster of pixels fraudulently expressed in cyberspace, a marionette suggested by the outlines of a Footeze ™ Gentleman’s Stocking (treated with Cheese-sorb ™), I wept uncontrollably for hours and could only console myself by eating 1 pig, half a stray dog and several of my neighbour’s children.
For shame.
*not in the same place as mammalian troth, and nicer to look at.
Had to visit an American website to discover what the NuLabour Blairite FoIs have been up to in recent days. Note the names of those present at the gathering.
The British Labour / Israel Dinner Date
by JAMES ELLIOTT
http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/07/10/the-british-labour-israel-dinner-date/
The only cheering thing to read is that Labour Friends of Palestine has a membership of 80.
http://www.lfi.org.uk/lfi-supporters-in-parliament/
The JC reports some warmongering by Alexander
.
‘Mr Alexander said the threat posed by Iran must be taken seriously. The country’s funding of Hizbollah, support for Syria’s President Assad, and supply of weapons to the Taliban, meant “a nuclear armed Iran is not simply a threat to Israel, it is a threat to all nations”.
He added: “Israel has a right, indeed an obligation, to defend itself, and as past conflicts remind us, that demands a strong Israeli Defence Force.”’
http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/109222/shadow-foreign-secretary-douglas-alexander-warns-labour-over-israel
Note Balls is off to Israel.
[Mod: comment entirely about another poster, removed]
OK, you old dragon, I’ll take your advice over “Small Gods” by Pratchett and “Riotous Assembly” by Sharpe, when I get a few free moments.
Fedup, at 11:38pm on 10.7.13: Brilliant post, thanks.
John, good on you.
Kibo Noh, you need a new name? How about… let me see… ‘Shantelle’? [the second syllable enunciated, not in a French accent, but loudly in female falsetto Glaswegian]
Hi Suhayl, belated thanks for your earlier appreciation of my post extract from K. Wonder if you actually read that piece or watched the video. I do recommend it/them. He so shows the wrong turn that humanity has taken and in a holistic way points out another way.
More insights and less analysis is humanity’s need in these very conflicted times. Keep yours coming.
[Mod: removed, off-topic]
Just watching the close of the debate about the need for a vote in parliament before arming the Syrian opposition groups.
Winding up, the shadow minister of foreign affairs Ian Lucas is a member of Labour Friends of Israel and the minister Alistair Burt was a member of the Conservative Friends of Israel. Perhaps its the done thing for ministers to come out of it for the duration.
A vote on the motion has been called for.
A different view of Mandela and the ANC from the one usually received. Pilger always writes from the basis of his own knowledge and experience.
From Apartheid to Neoliberalism in South Africa
Mandela’s Tarnished Legacy http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/07/11/mandelas-tarnished-legacy/ John Pilger.
~~~
PS The vote on the motion “This House believes no lethal support should be provided to anti-government forces in Syria without the explicit prior consent of parliament” was 147 for and 1 against, so that’s Cameron and Hague told and will hopefully prevent them taking any action during the 7 week long Summer recess.
Members of the master race only agree with democracy for lesser races when lesser races vote for things people from the master race agree with.
🙂
People in Muslim countries want to be governed by Islam.
Get over it!
You might believe your way of life is superior to anyone elses, but everyone else disagrees. Just as you believe your race is superior to anyone elses but you don’t seem to like to admit that anymore.
You to your way, we to ours.
You know you whites like to tell us lesser races about the wonders of your way of life. How secularism protects everyones right to follow their religion.
It might protect your right to swear at the Prophet’s but it doesn’t protect our rights to follow them.
Egypt was full of bans on Hijab and restrictions on men growing beards and praying in Mosques when it followed your enlightened secularism.
So please take your secularism and shove it up your enlightened arse.
🙂
We will govern ourselves by Islam to protect our rights to follow our religion.
And we will also protect the rights of Non-Muslims to follow theirs because Islam gives them that right.
‘Ow’s the fish, Arsalan? Good to hear from you again, man. Even if I find your post (4:44pm) touchingly naive. Haven;t you noticed that the Great Powers of our Sublime North Atlantic Alliance have been supporting Islamic paramilitaries right across the Middle East? So, my firned, be uplifted: The Great Satan is with you!
Whether they are with us or against us, the Islamic parties are what people voted for.
Right wing white supremacists say, “who the people voted for should be ignored and the army supported because the great Satan is against them”.
The left white supremacists say “We support the army against who the people voted for because the great Satan only pretends to be against Islam, America is really the main supporters of that”.
Whoever the great Satan supports is not relevant to the blatant hypocrisy of people that claim to believe in democracy but change their minds as soon as brown people vote for people they disagree with.
Our reason why we believe in Islam is nothing to do with a belief that “”America is against islam”, just as it isn’t due to a belief “America is for Islam”.
We believe in Islam, because Islam is what we believe in.
And when the people are allowed free and fair elections, they vote for Islamic parties.
And when they did so in Algeria, the people they voted for were declared terrorists for the crime of winning the election.
We believe in Islam, all of it. It is up to America whether they like the fact we do or hate the fact we do. It makes no difference to us, we will always believe in Islam.
And true Muslims want to be governed by Islam, all of it. Not just the bits that are acceptable to whites.
Hallelujah!
Well, democracy is about more than just a ballot every four years as an means to absolute power. And billions of petrodollars and paramilitary forces that crush all other possibilities (except military rule) do not constitute ‘the will of the people’. And when the people recognise that they’ve been duped by neoliberal Islamist agents, and rise up to topple the agents, the army steps in and stops the people taking power by placing yet more neoliberal agents into positions of power.
And Arsalan, when you claim to talk for “brown people”, and ‘Muslim people’ perhaps you would do well to remember that you too are white and that you cannot claim to talk for all, or even the majority of, Muslim people.
Democracy is hypocrisy. It isn’t my slogan, i am not the one that claims to believe in it. It is they that do. And it is they that reject it when it results in something that they disagree with.
Democray is just a rubber stamp they use to justify putting in power who they would have put in to power anyway.
Do you even think about what you write?
Haven’t you seen the billions in petro dollars the oil amirs have given to the millitry dictators after the coup? the Fighter jets America just handed over to them?
The fact that every western government recognised the coup?
But all that is irrilivant. you hold the same mindset as the colonialists on how the natives can not be trusted to choose their own way. If they choose anyway but your own they have been duped havent they?
Just to clarify, I am not a supporter of the brotherhood or morsi. They were idiots if they thought they had a chance of taking power through the ballot box. didn’t algeria teach them anything?
I don’t believe in Democract, the west doesn’t believe in democracy, the army doesn’t believe in democracry and Suhayl Saadi, you don’t believe in democracy.
We all believe in out own way of government. And if the people agree with us, we agree with them. Unlike you I admit that I don’t believe in democracy. While you and the west redefine it everytime when the people want something that isn’t what you want.
The only people who believe in democracy are the people who would agree with its outcome if it was something other than what they themselves would have chosen.
That isn’t me, and it clearly isn’t you.
You know I was refering to the imperialist mindset by “brown and white”, it is beneath you to pretend that you didnt.
Arsalan, if I read your 2:10pm post correctly, you seem to be saying much the same as Islam4UK, a group of pro-Sharia fundamentalists who wish to remove democracy in the UK and replace it with theocratic rule. I met some of them, rather by accident, as they were doing a roadshow around the UK and were speaking to members of the public – I spoke to one chap for an hour or so.
His basic error – and yours if you don’t mind my saying – is believing that the atrocities caused by the West represent the will of Western people. One or two people here have recently made the point that the UK is more democratic than other places (including places that are theocratically ruled) but it would be fair to add that it is not democratic enough. The invasion of Iraq was specifically undemocratic, since many millions of ordinary people marched against it and it went ahead anyway.
This, thankfully, is a sweeping generalisation, and thus is false. Yes, some people in Muslim countries support Sharia law as a replacement for a democracy, but not everyone does. I should think people of other religions and people of none in (predominantly) Muslim countries do not wish to see Sharia introduced at all.
Incidentally, if you are taking the view that Suhayl above is speaking in support of imperialism, then I think you have substantially misunderstood him.