What we are seeing in Egypt is counter-revolution pure and simple, military hardliners who are going to be friendly with Israel and the US, and are committing gross human rights abuse.
Western backed counter-revolution is going to be sweeping back across the Middle East; do not be distracted by the words of the West, watch the deeds. It will of course be in the name of secularism. There is an important correlation between what is happening in Turkey and Egypt. I made myself unpopular when I pointed out what the media did not tell you, that behind the tiny minority of doe-eyed greens in the vanguard of the Istanbul movement, stood the massed phalanxes of kemalist nationalism, a very ugly beast. “Secularism” was the cry there too.
Jon was that some sort of Joke?
Were you trying to get a laugh out of that or do you really believe what you write?
“A military source told Reuters that as many as 14 million people in the country of 84 million took part in the demonstrations.”
Can anyone spot the Key word there?
here is a clue, it comes after the first word “A” and before the third word “source”.
But to be honest, if the army that did the coup told you, they did it because 100 million egyption citizens demonstrated in a country with a population of 80 million you will still find it as believable.
Arsalan, you have claimed that nobody wants Sharia law for the UK. How do you explain the agenda of Hizbut Tahrir?
Arsalan, so your view is that the army is misrepresenting the level of support for the coup? How do you explain the pictures of the recent demonstrations then?
I am very well versed in how propaganda is used in the MSM, so accurate answers please. Perhaps the pictures are from the first wave of the revolution that ousted Mubarak? Or, perhaps they are faked? Or, maybe the numbers are accurate, but they all support Morsi? Or some other explanation?
At present, each of your contributions doesn’t shed more light onto the discussion, and I have to exert substantial effort to obtain an accurate understanding of what you think. At present, my view is that you supported the first revolution because you agree with it, and you wish to quell this second revolution because you disagree with it.
Jemand HT are working to establish an Islamic state in the Muslim world.
I wish you lot would go and ask people what they work for instead of relaying on ruport murdock for your information.
I repeat no Islamic group is taking part in elections here to take over. No Islamic group has constructed an army and are stock piling weapons to take over. No Islamic group are in negiotiations with the army here to do a coup.
Islamic groups that get involved in Politics do so to make a change in Muslim countries.
Jon
As I have told you before.
the coup does have its supporters.
Mubarak did have his supporters.
Whether they equal 1 million, 10 million or even more. They are the minority that loss the election.
They are the minority that kept power for many decades using the army, and soon after the elections they have taken power again.
And they intend to keep power.
That is why they have arrested hundreds of Brotherhood members. Taken all brotherhood assests. Fire at brotherhood demonstrations and kill as many as they can.
Jemand.
I think there is a difference between the words “want” and “work towards”.
For example, if the people and government of this country became Muslim here and now and said “We want to rule by Islam”.
And then they ruled this country by Islam.
Would I see that as a good thing?
Would Muslims see that as a good thing?
Would groups like HT, Islam for UK, or even moderate groups, and groups that don’t get involved or even care about politics see that as a good thing?
Yes!
We will all see that as a good thing.
So you can say, Muslims want that.
But are any Muslims working towards that?
No.
A Muslim might read the quran. And say “chop the hand of the theif”. But do we go about doing it here?
No.
Do we loby parliemant to introduce that law?
No.
No Muslims in general. Not HT, Not ISlam 4 UK. No one does.
Muslim groups that talk about ISlamic state and rulling by ISlam do so in regards to Muslim countries.
Arsalan, I think you are ignoring the evidence I’ve put to you, and you won’t answer my points, so I’ll leave it there. Best wishes to you.
what you site as evidence isn’t evidence.
Will you use statements from the dear leaders millitry in North Korea as evidence of how the north koreans love him?
What you site as evidence can be described as a joke at best, but most probably something worse.
Your photo of the demonstration was even worse than your quote from the army that did the coup.
You can’t really use a picture of a demonstration in support of the army coup as evidence that people support it when the army shoots at people demonstration in against their coup.
Well I can see that, if you can’t, maybe it is best that we leave it.
We call for democcracy for the natives.
That is unless the feeble minded natives vote for anyone but who we tell them to vote for!
“I think to accuse you of lying would be an understatment?” Arasalan.
That also crosses the line. But no matter. Here are two points:
1) Saudi Arabia and the UAE continue to bankroll Sunni Islamism and the ISI of Pakistani continues to run its paramilitary training camps.
Is that a lie?
2) You do not represent one billion people.
Is that a lie?
And more:
3) The UK and USA are in a strategic alliance with Saudi Arabia and the UAE.
Is that a lie?
4) The UK and France and others helped the Islamist paramilitary forces in Libya and continue to help them in Syria. The USA and UK (along with Pakistan) helped create the Islamist paramilitary forces in Pakistan during the 1980s.
Are these, lies?
5) And finally, Arsalan, you are a white man who claims to speak for what you depict as “brown people” and for all Muslims.
Are either of these claims, true?
Heh, I was going to leave this one, wasn’t I? 😀
Arsalan: the reason I suspect that the Guardian story is true is simple – perhaps I should have stated it before. The Guardian makes some very clear points:
1. 14 million people have recently demonstrated in Egypt
2. They are demonstrating against the elected Morsi government
3. The spirit of this second major demonstration is a grassroots continuation of the first
4. The demonstrators believe that the promises made to the people after the first revolution have substantially not been met
5. They want a new government to be formed
Now, the media isn’t always accurate, and sometimes it gets things wrong, and sometimes it is used as a conduit for outright propaganda. However, in this case, each of these points can be very easily checked. This is especially the case since the advent of blogging and micro-blogging, well-established in Egypt.
So, my contention is that all of those statements are true, and it would not be possible for Guardian to make a deliberately false claim. If you believe that they have made a mistake, which of the above points do you contest?
Or, do you believe that a revolution of any size should be repressed?
Interesting letters in the Guardian, one for, and three against the coup. I’ll cheerfully admit that when I find myself saying the things as that criminal Anthony Blair, I have pause for thought.
Notwithstanding, your answer to my above questions would be most welcome.
The interactions on the subject of “Islam-ism” on this board is tainted with a mixture of; daily two minutes hate, bias against religion, bias against religious observance, and bias against perceived liberal values.
These tainted abstractions are then subject to vigorous proletarianisations, in an almost comical interaction that clearly indicates the sallow understanding of those defending their attempt in guiding the errand “Islam-ist” onto the righteous path of “liberalism”.
The lazy catch all “Islam-ism” has come to encompass any debate about the countries in the mid-east. Fact that “Islam-ist” themselves are in differing factions with disparate political and moral imperatives somehow is never entertained, and the generalisations further obfuscate the issues further.
The current anti-Muslim band wagon further encourages this obfuscation, because without any such confusions the neo-liberal doctrine of intervention for the benefit of the “poor oppressed” that includes: Women, minorities, secular liberals, “trapped” in the clutches of the “Islam-ists” who are bent on enforcing “sharia” on these downtrodden people. This of course is achieved through humongous killings of the recalcitrant and reactionary “Islam-ists” by carpet bombing of their countries.
Egypt was subject of the “colour/spring revolution” introduced by the same sponsors who set up Saakashvili because Georgians were sick of their last “dictator”! These days the oppression in Georgia is never the subject of any “news reports” or articles, because our man from Uncle is at the helm.
Morsi turned out to be a bit of a handful and soon the “Coup d’État: A Practical Handbook” was referred to and a short time thereafter Morsi and his MB are now behind the bars as the “balance” is restored and the Generals are back in power.
All is well because the “democratically” elected Morsi is really a Hitler and all that and ballot boxes are meaningless because “democracy” is what the West decrees, and it varies from day to day sort of depending on who has won, and what has been the result of the the ballots?
Suhayl Saadi
Nice attempt to change the subject?
So let me get this straight, even though MB is illigal in UAE and Saudi. Even though there was mass arrest of MB in UAE just before the coup. Even though they are excuted in Saudi.
Even because of all this, to you MB won the egyption election due to Saudi and UAE support?
Even though UAE and Saudi gave billions to the generals after the coup?
What world do you live in?
Well one where democratically elected governments are dictatorships, and the unelected army that removes them is a democracy?
Jon
It was your own quote that said that information came from a millitry source.
🙂
I didn’t make that up, if anything it was you.
And the guardians support of the millity coup in egypt after an Islamic government was elected does not come to me as a surprise.
That news paper supported the army in Algeria too when the Muslims won the election there.
A lot of whites have a racist mentality. They like to talk about how democratic they are.
But when brown people elect people whites don’t like.
Whites suddenlt loss their democracy?
LOL
Sort of like how you preach freedom of religion to us lot, when it is your own countries with bans on Hijab.
Yes I don’t represent 1 billion people, or 2 billion for that matter.
What what the elections in egypt represented was the will of 50 % +20 %=70% of 80 million people.
And that doesn’t mean anything to you does it.
Because when these people vote for something you and the white master race don’t like, you support the unelected Pro Israeli army. An Army that was given f16 after the coup by the Americans, billions by the saudis and UAE. But yet you still carry on saying, MB win was some American plan, because Saudi and UAE may or may not give some Money to stuff the Pakistani government does?
Only you alone know what any of that has to do with the elections in egypt.
Well I think you don’t know, it was just you attempt change the subject.
Nice try.
Yes you and tony Blair agree on it.
Lesser races need the divine guidence of the mighty white race when it comes to ruling themselves.
Invasions to bring democracy when it comes to Afghanistan and Iraq.
And coups to remove it when it comes to Egypt and Algeria.
Well, any nation where silly people use their democractic rights to vote for anyone the white masters dont want them to vote for?
Arsalan, I put five points to you, and by coincidence, so did Suhayl. I should very much like you to write out the numbers 1 to 5 in the comment box, and adjacent to each digit, answer the questions put to you – from either of us – as fully as you can. If you are willing to do both sets, great.
Here’s an example of what I mean:
1. “14 million people have recently demonstrated in Egypt”. (You might say here that you believe this not to be true, and then you can explain why you believe that, or supply a link that shows it to be false).
Thanks.
Jon,
I thought it would have become obvious by now, that I don’t take orders?
I answer whatever I want in anyway I want.
The days of colonialism are over.
14, seems far fetched, especially as you quoted, a un-named Millitry source.
Don’t you think that is biased?
I mean the army just removed a democratically elected government after the army had ruled for about 50 years and you think what the army says is trust worthy?
And to add to the point you show a picture of a crowed. Which maywell contain a lot of people, hundreds, maybe even thousands.
But it in no way proves the millitries claim.
But lets say there was a trust worthy head count of everyone in the demos by a third party and not the people who did the coup.
And it showed that 14 mil of the 18 mil that supports the army went on to the streets.
It might be a justification for you.
Because your democratic princles end with the election of people you disagree with.
And you seem to ignore the fact that when any of the 40 mil + 16 mil = 56 mil demonstrate againt the coup they are shot at. And as soon as the coup happened 500 of their leaders were arrested, many more since.
For the crime of winning the election.
So not only is what you say suspicius, it is also not relivant at all.
The election showed what most people wanted. But because they want something you don’t want. the elections don’t mean much to you.
Well to be honest, I would say they don’t mean much to me too.
You believe in your secularist principles, if most people want it. All well and good. But if they don’t, you exchange your democratic princiles for fascism.
Where hundreds of people are arrested for winning elections. where demonstrations in support of democraitically elected parties are shot at by the army. Not only when they are in peaceful demonstrations. But also when they are in prayer!
So by saying what I did I was just showing your hypocrisy.
I was in no way saying I believe in YOUR democracy.
YOUR white mans democracy. I was just showing you don’t.
In the past white men went to the countries of brown men. And said “we will teach you religion, close your eyes”, when the brown men did, and opened them. They found a bible in their hands and thier lands and wealth in the hands of white men.
All your democracy, your freedom and all your values are just like your christianity. You use them as a slogan when it suits you, and reject them when it doesn’t.
Muslims should stop believing in the lies of whitemen.
I repeat the Brotherhood were idiots to take part in the election.
They should have realise it was a trick used by the white colonial masters to destroy the main opposition to millitry rule.
I’ve not ordered you to do anything. But, if I were to loudly insist that you do not answer my questions, I suspect you’d still find a way to avoid engaging with the debate 😀
Ah well.
Jon, you tried your best. Anyway, your arguments are clear to other readers, so all is not wasted.
It appears to me as an outsider that a change of govt in Egypt was a popular demand, just lamentable that the process was not more orderly such as a re-election instead of a coup. Decent constitutions should take such circumstances into account and provide for a civilian solution rather than depend on the might of the military who will often have their own, parallel, political agenda. It’s back to the drawing board for Egypt.
Jemand the change of government was a popular demand with the people who didn’t vote for the government.
And yes, there will be a change in constitution. Like happened in Algeria after the elections there which was followed by a millitry coup.
One where people can only vote for who they are told to vote for.
One where if someone is elected, he can only do what he is allowed to do.
Like Turkey where the government that won by a massize majority are not even allowed to legalise the Muslim Head scarf in for University students let alone dream of allowing school girls to wear it.
Muslims need to learn, voting changes nothing.
It doesn’t matter if you have 50% +1, 70% like in Egypt, 98% like in Algeria or even 100%.
None of it matters, they will never allow you to rule by what you want to rule by.
And the people who cry that you should respect the vote if you are a minority are the first to support millitry dictatorships when you are the majority.
Might is right.
That is all that matters.
Muslims won elections time and time again, only to have power taken off them by coups.
So Muslims have to realise the only way to take power is if they themselves do the coup.
Since Arsalan seems unwilling to acknowledge what I thought was common knowledge, okay, let’s do specifically Egypt:
1) Mubarak regime illegitimate. People -largely not the Islamists – get rid of it.
2) Quick elections to try for stability. Islamists are best organised and promise better future. People give them a chance and the Islamists are voted into power.
3) Islamists do what they always do when they into power, but they do it too quickly in Egypt (unlike the ones on the AKP in Turkey) and basically try to turn the structures of the state – judiciary, etc. – into their fiefdom. But more than that, crucially, they do everything the IMF wants them to do, like a good little native elite (again).
4) “Bread, freedom, justice” is the cry. The Islamists have betrayed the revolution. Many milions of Egyptian people rise up and demand the Islamists relinquish power. The Army steps in to stop the people from taking control and again, to install their own placemen. Yet more neoliberals who have no new ideas or policies wrt the IMF et al.
Rest assured, if ‘Bread, Justice and Freedom’ are not facilitated, there will be yet more unrest. The Islamists have been seen for what they are, simply the IMF + God (neither of which deliver bread, justice, freedom). The tide is begining to turn.
1 Mubarak was one person in his regime. Not the only person. Now he is gone, but his regime minus him is back. These generals who removed this elected government didn’t just apear from no where. They were part of Mubaraks regime.
What you call the Islamist, are the people.
They are not shiped in from some place else.
And they are not just the people, the election showed, they are at least 70% of the people.
I say at least, because a lot of who you call Islamist would never vote in kufr elections.
Others knew it was a trap which would be followed by a coup, supported by you, yours and your governments. 🙂
2: they won, get over it. you are clearly someone that fully supports democracy when it elects who you would vote for. Anything else and then you are a facist.
🙂
3) Now in Turkey, the Islamist that were voted in are just poster boys. They can’t really do anything but smile for the camera. What ever law they make with how ever high majority. The Kamalist veto it.
And when the facts don’t suit you, you respond with a lie again. Mursi didn’t do what the IMF wanted, and the IMF refused to give the loan.
But how ever evil the ISlamist are, the people of Egypt know them. And voted for them. And you just can’t take it that they are not Liberal secularists like yourself can you?
With all due respect, you are pathetic.
4) Yes millions don’t want the Islamist. But those millions were in the minority. the Millions that do want them won the elections.
And they are the ones that get shot when they demonstrate, get arrested when they win elections.
And that is your democracy.
🙂
So shove your democracy up your arse.
It is time for Muslims to learn democracy is a lie. Freedom is a lie.
It is just dictatorship and fascism by another name.
The Disbeliever have their own system based on their disbelief. And we have our own system based on our religion. Their kufr democracy will never allow us to rule by Islam no matter how high our majority is.
So what we must do is take power. It is time for us to stop dreaming that change is possible by voting and engineer our own coup. And rule by our own book.
It is time to reverse sykes picot and reestablish the Khilafah.
3)
My message to Mursi, the Muslim Brotherhood and anyone else that believes in the ballot box is, I told you so.
LOL
When will you lot ever learn. 😉
Will you learn from this mistake, or repeat it a few more times before you start doing what really works?
“It is time to… reestablish the Khilafah.” Arsalan.
And to re-establish Peter Pan?
Arsalan, when you disagree with someone on a political matter, it is not necessary to insinuate that they are lying. It is more complex.
http://socialistunity.com/the-role-of-the-imf-in-morsis-downfall/
http://middleeastvoices.voanews.com/2013/05/insight-lessons-not-learned-in-egypt-39163/
@arsalan – it’s unnecessary (and wrong) to suggest Suhayl is a fascist, pathetic, lying etc. He is playing with a very straight bat, and seems very willing to debate with you. But you won’t concede any ground, ever. That means you’re hear to preach, not to engage or listen.
In my view, it is better for to you honestly question the foundations of your opinions than to cling to them blindly – in the latter lies a dangerous path. I’ve learnt a lot from Craig and others here, about liberal thought, the complexities of Israel/Palestine, human psychology, the worldwide financial systems, feminism, religion – really the whole lot. With the best of sentiments in mind, I wish I could “bottle it”, this thirst for knowledge and learning, so you might drink it.
I don’t claim that it makes me entirely right – actually, I think where people drink of it, it helps us all see where we are wrong. I recommend it to you, with the best of intentions.
ss
You call our religion Peter Pan. We call our religion, our religion.
And we choose to follow all of it, including that bits you are not very comfortable with.
You might call you statements something other then a lie, but then again. You regard an elected government as dictatorship and a millitry coup as the will of the people.
Jon,
You sound like Blair.
Boohooo
“Muslim Fundamentalist is unhappy with me for supporting a millitry coup, and the killings that came with it.”
Boohooo
“Why wont he concede any ground?”
“Can’t we just all get along!”
LOL
In a lot of issues there is ground to give.
Well not here, when people have been arrested only for the crime of winning an election.
To call winning an election a dictatorship and to call a coup the will of the people isn’t a difference of opinion. it is orwellian.
Tony blair would be so proud!
Just to make clear, I am not, nor have I ever been a supporter of the brotherhood.
So this isn’t an issue of they are right cause they are my people.
My point is, they are the people of the Egyption people.
And what you and sahal say about the ability of the egyption people to choose their own government smacks of racism of the most extreme kind.
It is the colonialist mindset. Whitemans burden.
The same mindset that said whitemen liberated blacks by enslaving them.
So yes, I do call you both facists.
If that isn’t the word for the coup against an elected government, the arrest of hundreds of elected people, the killing of people who support those elected people, what is?