What we are seeing in Egypt is counter-revolution pure and simple, military hardliners who are going to be friendly with Israel and the US, and are committing gross human rights abuse.
Western backed counter-revolution is going to be sweeping back across the Middle East; do not be distracted by the words of the West, watch the deeds. It will of course be in the name of secularism. There is an important correlation between what is happening in Turkey and Egypt. I made myself unpopular when I pointed out what the media did not tell you, that behind the tiny minority of doe-eyed greens in the vanguard of the Istanbul movement, stood the massed phalanxes of kemalist nationalism, a very ugly beast. “Secularism” was the cry there too.
Simply not true. Western democracies are based on capitalism and hypocrisy.
No, I don’t.
We’re not getting anywhere, again. Fedup, my views are held openly and honestly. I think I have answered all your questions, but you have nothing but treacle for me to wade through, still. I take the debate seriously, and you find it hilarious. I am polite to you, and you swear back. I ask you questions, and you ignore them.
And so it goes, on and on. You then have the audacity to suggest it is me that is offering a “dialogue of the deaf, the mute, and the blind”. I think readers studying the record above, and the one I linked to, will see a different picture.
Hang on capitalism came later. First there was the religious rule that governed Europe as a whole. However the awful heredity laws gave rise to the filthy rich and abject poor and then there came the push to define property and the laws concerning property, which strangely are based on Christian tenets.
You are skipping the early years. The evolution of the old system has brought about the present system.
I did not swear and laugh at you, I laughed at your assumption; believing I am religious! Swearing is my style.
What have I ignored that has annoyed/upset you so much?
There should be a diversity of “governance” systems, in a best of breed (craps this is a supremacist expression) competition. Ever since the demise of Communism the unashamed fascist have gone to their ends, because there is no competing ideology for the plebeians to get attracted to.
The fascists like the current status quo just fine, a mono idea world of shit. However, this is not for the benefit of we the punters as it is becoming more and more obvious by the day. Can you see why I advocate the existence of differing schools of thought and governance? Or is it still not clear for you?
Jon
18 Jul, 2013 – 10:34 pm
Don’t play that Zionist game of twisting my words to suit your arguments.
You know full well why I called him a white supremacist, and I have told him many times why I have said that.
He was called that because of the same reason I have called you that.
The arguments both of you have used is white supremicist arguments.
Both of you have used the words islamicist the way others use the word Nigger.
So it doesn’t take long before the truth becomes visible.
I never once accused him of betraying his own colour. That is something you made up, and you accused me of saying because you are a liar.
If you are not a liar, quote the post where I accuse him of betraying his own colour.
If a white man said what he said, and many in the BNP, and NF have said exactly what he said. Everyone would call that white man a racist and a white supremicist.
So it would be racist of me not to call him a white supremicist.
I don’t even know what calour you are jon, but I call you one too don’t I?
Is that racist too?
If you want to know why I call you that, scrole up and the reason is given in the posts where I do.
All both of you said is about forcing lesser races to obey the ways of the white man.
Don’t pretend it isn’t.
A slight detour;
I always assumed tom-a-hawk denotes an axe made out of a slate/metal blade tied/strapped to a wooden handle by leather/sinew strips. Can you please clarify the roots of your interpretation of the term?
Fedup and John
I believe Christians should rule by Christianity.
The fact they don’t leads me to believe on the whole they don’t believe in their scripture.
But some laws are realted to their beliefs. But since capitalism these laws have become fewer and fewer.
Thinngs that are still related to belief is the fact that incest is still illigal.
It isn’t illigal for any form of capitalist reason. There is no money to be made keeping it illigal.
It is illigal due to Christian beliefs.
But I can see how it is hard for White Christians to rule by Christianity.
They don’t even implement it on their own lives.
And have found excuses to ignore each and every law Jesus lived by.
They don’t pray the way Jesus prayed, they don’t fast the way jesus fasted, the men don’t keep beards the way jesus did, the women don’t cover their hair the way his mother did, they eat what was forbiden to Jesus, they forbid themselves from marrying more then one when jesus never forbade it etc.
If people believe in a religion, they shouldn’t shy away from living by it, whether individually or as a whole.
fedup
Yes that is exactly what it is.
But when you space it out. It becomes Tom as in uncle tom. A hawk is added after, to indicate, the native bit.
A native American told me they use that word for natives that look down on other natives and up to white culture.
This is really exciting (I know little things, please little minds etc.), there can be a link/pollination to the Uncle Tom that is the usual derisory term for blacks being deferential to their “white master”. Native Americans using Tom and then contextualising it with a soaring Hawk to clarify the look down on the origins of the Hawk that is the subject of derision.
I know this a quick fire analysis with little corroboration, and evidence to rely on. Alas I don’t know many Native Americans let us hope some will come forward to accept or reject the postulation forwarded.
Don’t be uncharitable. Christians in the last 2000 years have seen many aspects of Christianity to undergo changes. The present day Christian beliefs due to the elapsed time does not find emulating Jesus as part of their rites. This somehow does not detract from their intention to be good and remain true.
The concept of ownership is in fact a late arrived at thought, Adam Smith sets out the principles of ownership and defines it, which clearly is indicative of efforts in demarcation of chattel and property and establishing relationship/link to the owners of the said property and chattel, was arrived at pretty late in the history.
So far as incest goes, it is a destructive interaction that leads to amplification of the genetics defect and is ruinous to the health of the off spring resultant of such a interaction. Capitalists who were too busy changing the master slave relationships and the obligations thereof, could not afford the mass of disabled workers/self motivated slaves. Thus the laws against incest.
Islam being the youngest religion, has a far more comprehensive approach to the lives of its followers, hence the influence of Islam on the daily lives of the Muslims. This fact always escapes the attention of those whom are not familiar with Islam.
Interesting. You see, one scratches the shell’s surface… and the worm emerges from the egg. It is best that people here see this reality in its full flood and then imagine – have no illusions about – what kind of society would be generated by this reality. And then imagine, just for a moment, what people in Muslim societies are up against.
And in spite the very interesting discourses and dense prose in the stream above (and thanks, Jon, for continuing to engage), there still has been no response to my very simple question. Any inventions by Islamist societies? Even one…? I think this is important because if one is claiming to be advancing human betterment, it is necessary to provide evidence. Is there any?
“… the men don’t keep beards the way jesus did, the women don’t cover their hair the way his mother did…” Arsalan [wrt Christians]
In this world-view (to which they are fully entitled, but one does not have to agree with it), infant mortality and female literacy rates, for example, are of no consequence, just the presence or absence of beards and veils.
Even on its own level, it’s just absurd. I’m sure there are photographs of Jesus and Mary, somewhere… let me search in the attic.
The insistence on the label “Islamist” is somewhat confusing. This the curmudgeon may misconstrue as mendacious, given the “stream of prose” on this particular thread.
If Islamic political systems are being questioned; Iran has had many inventions, the latest of which include nano technology products for water filtration! This invention is a spinoff of their civil nuclear technology; to filter any water input or output into the nuclear plants, as well as any contaminated sources of water, ie any old pond can be treated with this product to obtain filtered water, that can be potable with the addition of chlorine for belts and braces approach.
Further, Iranians have invented/discovered among other drugs a solution that heals diabetic ulcers on the lower limbs of the diabetes sufferers; preventing the amputation of the affected limbs.
This kind of genital swinging perhaps is not the best method of assessing any systems effectiveness. Although there is a room for such a metrics, but to table such a question in the manner that it has been repeated, overlooks the simple fact that inventions are in need of patents, to officially protect the rights of the inventor.
This excludes the ingenious solutions to various problems faced by innovative individuals in their daily lives, simply because the solutions applied are not patented. Further, the latent content of the question can be a source of confusion; what is intended to adduce from such a line of questioning? Is it to prove that:
Islamic Political Systems are lax on education of their people?
Islamic political systems stifle innovation and progress?
This kind of divisive questions are not very helpful, and need to be more concisely constructed and the forwarded.
I’m very pleased that Iranians are inventing helpful things for humanity. Here is another piece on this subject:
http://www.wipo.int/wipo_magazine/en/2005/03/article_0004.html
The question that arises, though, is this. Does the fact that people in Iran continue to invent things, make great films, write good books and so on, have anything to do with the Islamism in the political system in which they happen to dwell at the presnt time? Or were they doing these things anyway? In other words, is it the Islamism swithin the political system that has resulted in these benficent outcomes, or is it that the resourcefulness and creativity of the people continues to manifest in spite of the Islmaism that defines the system. Or, posibly, is that the progressive elements within specifically, Iranian Islamism have helped to nuture such positive talents?
Iran also won more medals at last year’s Olympics than any other Muslim country, except possibly Kazakhstan (ex-USSR), a fact unreported in the Western media and one to which I mentioned on this blog.
I think we already agreed that Iran is a complex case, politically, with some inherent socialist elements, and differs enormously from the contemporary manifestation of Sunni Islamism that is prevalent everywhere else. I find it interesting that the proponenets of that Sunni Islamism repeatedly have to refer to Iran in order to find anything positive. But perhaps we should ask Arsalan what he thinks of Iran?
Certainly from the article that you kindly provided the link for, the young Iranian inventors were aged between seventeen and twenty seven, and included the both of the genders. Therefore we can safely conclude that these individuals were educated in the Islamic Republic and have known no other system. Their nurture and fruition to the productive and solution solving individuals has been a personal and communal process, both aiming to progress for the cause of humanity.
I am hesitant to join in sectarian discourses, because these detract from the substance of the debate. However I fullheartedly agree with you that Iranian model has proved to be a successful revolution, and those aspiring to constitute an Islamic Political System will do well to study Iranian system and take good note of it.
The socialist component of the Iranian Islamic system most certainly is under a constant stream of attacks from without Iran, that is aided and abetted by the elements within that country. This too ought to be fully taken on board for without the socialist/egalitarian component any constituted system would lose its Islamic essence, and would emulate the Vaticanesque (no disrespect to Catholic sensibilities intended, referring to Borgia et al)system that became unstuck.
Finally I am looking forward too, to read the response to your last question.
Thanks, Passerby. Much appreciated.
Wel, Arsalan, Passerby is keen to know your thoughts on Iran. Give us your thoughts!
Jon,
Are we mates and good to go, or are you going to stay sulky and moody? (stated with in a conciliatory tone, so don’t take it the wrong way)
The assumption that I am religious could have had a bearing on reading what I have forwarded, don’t you think?
===
Suhayl,
You have dodged the question: could you find a positive aspect in the Political Islam from a third party point of view ?
“… from a third party point of view ?” Passerby.
I haven’t dodged the question, I just missed it, sorry. What do you mean by “a third party”? Do you mean a political party, or a 3rd person in a discourse/situation?
I mean, if anything, if there is to be a ‘political Islam’, I’d have liked to have seen a sort of liberation theology type of movement. There are elements within the religion which definitely point towards that, egalitarianism and so on, but unfortunately, politically, it’s not happened. Some people had high hopes of Iran during the early years or the Revolution, but most were disappointed.
Fedup, are you the same person who posts under, ‘Passerby’? Or are you two different people? It’s just a little confusing sometimes. ‘Fedup’ and ‘Passerby’ seem to possess very similar voices. ‘Cryponym’ is another which I find quite similar.
If you’re three people, then fine. But if you’re all one person, you know, might it not be better just to stick to one handle? Forgive the speculation.
Palm of the left hand on head (hoping you don’t use hair gel stuff) with a deep reassuring voice; you are forgiven child!
Could the similarities arise because the three of us have similar outlooks ?
a 3rd person in a discourse/situation
I think that many people are inspired by faith to do many good things. There also are positive aspects of many faiths that can, and do, form the bases of a yearning for social justice and so on. I think of the man, Abdul Sattar Edhi who runs those ambulances and other healthcare facilities in Pakistan, for example. That, to me, is Islam and it is political.
And if that is what you mean, Fedup, then yes, I think there is a role for what might be termed ‘a political Islam’. It would have to be very different, though, from the kinds of organised political Islam we have seen so far.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Sattar_Edhi
Bloody hell Suhayl, we are in agreement! The lamb and the lion hanging around cool drinking Pina Colada etc. Best not get too far with this sort of stuff!!
Silliness aside, without a delineation of Political Islam from the “Islam-ism” there can be no progress. The use of the pejorative term of “Islam-ism” is used as a catch all to describe the little preacher bent on keeping his folk and his income safe from the clutches of the poachers foreign and domestic. As well as the highly articulate educated individuals whom follow Islam and intend to synthesise a modern and viable system of governance.
This is a first step, towards a better debate hopefully.
I join you to table the question;perhaps we should ask Arsalan what he thinks of Iran? (not in an inquisitorial fashion)
“Silliness aside, without a delineation of Political Islam from the “Islam-ism” there can be no progress.” Fedup.
Yes, I agree, Fedup.
Let’s not kid ourselves here. Whatever achievements Iranians have enjoyed in the arts, science, industry and sports, have no divine origin whatsoever. Religious fervour might have inspired some greater effort, but so what? Replace Islam with Christianity, American pride or obsessive personal zeal and you get the same excited motivation that leads to success.
Apologists of Islam will frequently cite historical instances of personal achievements of muslims as if those achievements could only have occurred under the auspices of Islam. Bullshit.
Did Muslims, Christians or Jews invent copper smelting? Bronze? Iron or steel? No.
Defenders of religion will also falsely claim that civilisation and its moral roots exist only because of belief in an Abrahamic God. Again, bullshit. European pagans were already advanced and civilised (as much as anybody could be at that time) before Judaism was invented. Anyone ever heard of the Greeks? And later on, the Romans?
Did any of these religions inspire civilisation in the Far East? No.
It’s lamentable that Jews, Christians and Muslims want to destroy, hide or rewrite history to erase their respective absences, deficiencies, failures and crimes. We see the most recent examples of this behaviour in places like Afghanistan where they destroy ancient Buddhist statues. And in place of historical or scientific truth, we are told legends, myths and fairytales. Propaganda, I think it’s called.
Bronze flag, c. 3000 BCE –
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bronze_flag,_Shadad_Kerman,_Iran.JPG
Suhayl Saadi
19 Jul, 2013 – 8:11 am
They are up against people who see them as lesser humans. Fit only to be commanded by superior races.
These are either colonialists who conquar them or people with brown skins.
When Muslims rule themselves, they rule in ways you don’t like.
“You” is the key word here, YOU.
So you rule yourself the way you in scotland would like, and be happy with them ruling themselves where they are. Even if it isn’t by the secularism you know and love.
When it comes to the inventiveness of Islamic societies. Well If they want to live the way they do, with inventions or without. That is up to them. You sound like the white faced Christians that exterminated the red man to bring inventiveness to America. Or the white faced Christians who carried off the black man, for the same reason.
Muslims like the way they live. And they don;t like the way you love.
Get over it!
Suhayl Saadi
19 Jul, 2013 – 9:46 am
Again, we follow what we believe in, you follow what you believe in.
We know what JEsus the son of marry and his mother wore, because of the laws they followed. These laws are still there in the scripture. White Christians choose to ignore these laws. We and many Black and Brown Christians as well as Religious Jews still follow it.
Here in this country it is up to you whether you follow the Laws of the Quran, the bible and the Torah(All of whome agree on this issue). But you are a hyporite for and dishonest for bringing up female literacy and infant mortality. It is your secularists that ban girls from getting an education in school for putting a cloth on their heads. Not just in Racist nations like France, Belgium and Russia. It also happens in secualrist Countries like Turkey, Azerbigan and even countries you might regard as Islamist have schools that ban Hijab including Saudi Arabi, and Karzia Afghanistan.
So blame yourself and people like you who see themselves as superia to the rest of the people because you have exchanged the verses of the Quran that you disagree with with the values of the Superia white race.
And this samething applies to infant mortality. Pregnant women have died because they were denied entry in to Hospitals in Bin Alis Tunisa. Even when they are willing to comprimise their religion to save life, women still die, when they find that they are still refused entry even after removing their hijab because their ID card was rejected because they happened to be scarved in it. And this is the laws with the excuse of your secularism. So you blame Islamism for these evils, I blame you, people like you and the seculerism you seek to promote.
You blame Islam-Ism. I blame your own racism for you even using the term Islam-ism in the way you do. You use it as others use the word Nigger.
Suhayl Saadi
19 Jul, 2013 – 1:00 pm
And
Passerby
19 Jul, 2013 – 11:23 am
That is why I kept ignoring SS when he said “What have Islam-ist invented”.
It wasn’t a true question. What ever you say, that would be, well they did it not because of their islam but inspite of.
I saw through it. It wasn’t a question. It was a statement. A racist statement against lesser races.
The same can be applied to other accusations he has made against what he calls Islam-ist.
was it Islam that caused that, or poverity, wars, sanctions and other things.
White supremicist make the same arguments about all lesser races.
So I’m not going to play that game with him and list things.
Instead I will ask him, SS what have you ever invented?
You personally what have you invented?
That comment you made is plagerised from Kilroy isn’t it?
So i’m going to repeat Paul Merton reply. What have you ever invented?
What has your secularism ever inspired you to invent. Other then those books?
Do I need to watch kilroy to get a preview of them?
Suhayl Saadi
19 Jul, 2013 – 8:00 pm
Well, I’m sorry to disapoint you but you are not going to get the secterianism you would have hoped for from that request.
What I believe in is Khilafah. For this to happen Muslims need to get beyond the secterianism the imperialists try to exploit.
They used it, straight after the revolution. support Sunni against Shia, then use it again when the attacked Iraq supporting Shia against Sunni, and now again to try and get Sunni to attack Iran.
It is a game. They use school of thought instead of race. They would have just as easily said, Arab against persian.
I do not consider Iran to be an Islamic state for the same reason I don’t consider any of the countries today as being such.
The Islamic state is the Khilafah. Anything else is a mix of Islam and Kufr.
It is debatable how Iran compares to other nations, in the amount of Islam they implement compared to the amount of Kufr. The supporters of each country will admit the country they support isn’t completely Islamic, but they will state it is more Islamic than some other countries.
I am not going to play that game.
When it comes to Iranian Tech. Yes credit where it is due.
I think sanctions have a lot to do with this.
And the War where the secularists support Saddam against Iran and helped him attack Iran and invade large amounts of it. During this invasion, the imperialists as well as their puppets in the gulf filled Iraq with arms, and restricted Iran from getting them. This created an inventivenes in the Iranian spirit.
Jemand – Censorship Improves History
Even though you wrote what you did as an attack on me.
To some extant at least I agree with you.
People invant.
It isn’t religion that invents or even a systems of government.
People do it.
But somethings encourage advancement and somethings stifle it.
I believe people like SS get in the way of advancement.
secularism in the Muslim world is nothing but plagiarisation by people who regard themselves as inferior of a people they regard as superior.
This doesn’t create advancement or creativity, all it creates is plagiarisation.
The regimes that were carved out of the Ottoman Khilafah, didn’t suddenly advance to great hights. They stagnated and some regressed.
They plagiarisation from the white race, while the white nations advanced.
So all this looking to the white race for answers to our problems, only means an eternal game of catch up.
I have nothing against learning from each other.
What I am attacking is the inferiority complex I accuse SS of having.
And I believe all the secular leaders have this. And I believe a lot of the people SS regard as Islamists, have this too, else they would rule by Khilafah instead of part secularism, part Islam.
SS and people like him do not result in our nations being as rich or educated as the west. They result in oppresson. I’n police wripping hijabs from girls heads, police wripping beards from men’s faces, and the coups we have seen in egypt and many other countries. And the civil wars that can result from coups
Arsalan.
This is amusing. What did I invent? Five books. You…?
Arsalan, in case you hadn’t noticed, the rest of us are having a calm discussion. Take a chill pill.