What we are seeing in Egypt is counter-revolution pure and simple, military hardliners who are going to be friendly with Israel and the US, and are committing gross human rights abuse.
Western backed counter-revolution is going to be sweeping back across the Middle East; do not be distracted by the words of the West, watch the deeds. It will of course be in the name of secularism. There is an important correlation between what is happening in Turkey and Egypt. I made myself unpopular when I pointed out what the media did not tell you, that behind the tiny minority of doe-eyed greens in the vanguard of the Istanbul movement, stood the massed phalanxes of kemalist nationalism, a very ugly beast. “Secularism” was the cry there too.
Suhaly Saadi said:
To deliver, there is a need for a coordinated and concious effort across all the government departments, as well as help of the economic movers and shakers intent to solve the endemic problems faced by the target population. This factor cannot be denied, or for the matter argued against.
To foment dissatisfaction is an all too easy enterprise, given the power structure map, and economic choke points. The coup in Egypt was a text book exercise; Coup D’Etat: A Practical Handbook by by E Luttwak.
Luttwack being one of the notable neocons, who was shouting the world would end if DPRK got The Bomb, and after DPRK detonated their nuclear weapon, was seen on the TV circuit arguing; a massive device sitting in a shed in North Korea is of no threat value, and is inconsequential.
A review of the book By A Customer:
This of course has no bearing on the debate, because we all know that “Muslims” really don’t have a clue about anything included; the concept of nuance is alien.
These dead Egyptians would have wanted to go this way
However the death toll is not enough for General Abdel-Fattah al-Sisi :
The killings to follow in the name of “democracy”, and “secularism” is as yet not understood and when it happens, the examination in minutia will not yield much for those whom verily believe Egyptians lot will be better under the new management!
The fact that there is a right mess of a breakfast foule in Cairo, evidently has not sunk in yet here. BTW if you don’t know what is “foule”, it means you have no idea about Egypt, and in all probability you an’t tell the difference between a fava bean from a fart, on matters concerning Egypt. However this should not stand in the way of approval of the coup that has set Egypt on its way towards a “secular democracy”!
If the developments in Egypt were not so ghastly and disturbing, the debate here would have made a heck of a comedy sketch!
“This of course has no bearing on the debate, because we all know that “Muslims” really don’t have a clue about anything included; the concept of nuance is alien.” Fedup (or was it Passerby?).
This clearly refers to Arsalan, as Jon was addressing Arsalan in his request for nuance. But you and Arsalan both seem to conflate yourselves with ‘all Muslims’.
Well, I am Muslim and I do not agree with your political stances. But I do not pretend that I exemplify or represent all Muslims. Therefore, when people disagree with me on this or that, as they often do, I do not hide behind the last refugee of crying, “Mother, he’s attacking all Muslims because he’s critiquing my views! Mother! He must be racist!”
This is merely another example of the unwillingness of those who espouse or support Islamism to brook any dissent.
Wheehhheeey might or might not, [ie you (I) could be lying through your (my) teeth, to us all. clearly those “Muzzies” are lying, cheating, dastardly bastards, and we cannot rust any of them.]
Oh Mr. Darcy slap my thigh I am called obnoxious,….. Laddy my middle name is Obnoxious, and worse still I am your fucking worst nightmare, I am beyond your brand of a theism. I don’t need to attack other peoples belief to convince myself I am not religious.
There is only one crackpot with a go faster stripes zimmerframe mate, and that is you. I have never had any pretensions of “Intellectualism” and no claims as to know all the answers, as you seem to be the only one who really know there is no Easter Bunny. Fuck me then where the chocolates come from?
Your hatred of Muslims can be pretty well disguised through your a theistic cover, and you can have a license to pour your bile freely and at will, in a free fire fashion, and be respected for it too, in the peer group you seem to be ensconced. Further, anyone who calls you out, then you can string a whole lot of pejorative adjectives and end it with; you are without doubt an apologist of Islamists
OK Sherlock, I am an apologist for Islam-ists, what the fuck that makes you to be, fucking witchfinder pursuivant?
Your prejudices cannot or will not allow you to respect other peoples beliefs, will it?
Jumped up prick, all the “questions” you have forwarded are devoid of the following:
Which religious book gave instructions for the Atomic bomb?
Which Fucking prophet brought the schematics for the trigger circuits for the Hydrogen Bombs?
Which religion ordered the fire bombing of Tokyo, bombing of Hiroshima, Nagasaki?
Which fucking bunch of Muslims ever invaded any of the Western countries that seem to be bent on the destruction of Muslims?
Forgot, it was the oh so secular wankers who have been bombing the shit out of the Muslims from Karachi to Djibouti? That is depleted Uranium, killing them there and then and then carry on killing them for decades to come.
You wax lyrical about the ills of Islam without ever mentioning Christian fucking fundies, or Jewish fucking fundies, but hey you are an a theist who only hates fucking “Muzzies” aren’t you? You racists little fuckwit.
Suhayl Saadi
24 Jul, 2013 – 1:34 pm
You are being dishonist. The elections had just taken place a few months ago. In cases such as that it doesn’t mean people changed their mind. It wasn’t a case of the egyption population, 73% in the lower house election, more than 80% in the upper house election, saying, “Oh silly me, I ticked the wrong box”.
I repeat to accuse the population of a country so bog of being so thick, is racism, plane and clear.
What happened in Egypt is what happened in Algeria.
There was an election and the side you don’t like won.
Just as in Egypt now, people made excuse to support Millitry dictatorship while claiming to support democracy. In Algeria they said, “Some times we need to use undemeocratic means to support democracy” Quote from the leftist Guardian.
And with egypt, “Yes well they changed their minds, how do we know they did, the army that took over told us they did”.
Be honest, end the hypocrisy and admit, this is about people you don’t like ruling by something you don’t like.
You and many others who claim to believe in democracy, just believe in their own superiority.
But are too hypocritical to admit it.
Suhayl Saadi
You know why I called you a racist. Don’t pretend you don’t. the reasons were given each time I used that word to describe you.
Your attacks were race based, they had no connection to policies or beliefs at all.
I don’t want to go through them again. If you want to refute what I said about you, scrole up, and cut and past what I said and refute each reason why I gave for you being a racist. I can’t be bothered.
You hypocrisy and dishonesty is clear. I am glad this thread was started.
I always knew what your politics were and your religious beliefs. It was never a secret we disagreed on them. What I didn’t know was your dishonesty, arrogance and hypocrisy. I am glad you have made them clear to me now.
If you want to know I believe you have these qualities, scrole up, I have already given the reasons.
I think I have more respect for people like the Turkish general that said, “If all the people want Islamic government, I will kill everyone”, at least people like that are honest. People like you believe in exactly the same thing as them, but you lie, and pretend speak as if you represent a people you dispise.
You have made it clear how you feel about people who you call Islamists. The elections have shown most of the population are those people you dispise. But instead of clearly stating your feelings, you come out with nonsense such as, “they have changed, now I support them in their take over”.
When the people who have taken over are the same people that ruled under Mubarak, sadat and Nasir.
Fedup, oh dear. Suhayl could not make it plainer, I think, that he is not attacking you, although he is well within his rights to assert that you are not engaging with the debate. But in losing your temper and resorting to abuse, do you not lose the debate automatically? How does it help your cause – the precise nature of which is not clear anyway – if you insult the people who you set out to persuade?
Jon do you really believe that Jemand (as in “someone” in German) is open to any kind of persuasion? To be so myopic as he is and to believe all the ills of the world are based on religion when it is the godless bastards who are raining shit on those poor bastard whom have nothing other their god to hang onto, to go through the drudgeries of what they call life?
Suhayl on the other hand is bit of a mixed-up soul. He claims to be a communist. Alas his kind of communist is the sort that Hradial Bains decries foul. Before the left is to become relevant, it should take the first step is; take off the ideological blinkers and let their minds absorb the human condition in the backwaters of the planet. Where life is a ghastly series of never ending drudgeries.
Those souls stock in the middle of the steps of Afghanistan, or deserts of Pakistan with no access to medicine, potable water, proper food and nutrition, who have to travel two days for the nearest Doctor to see them. If these souls did not have their belief, how can they pull themselves out of their beds and start another day in the cold, or in the heat?
Trouble with the armchair lefties is these have forgotten who their constituencies are? As Hardial Bains puts it; it is the taxi driver, the bus driver, the mechanic, the labourer who are the ones that need the communism, not the cloistered well fed and provided for middle-class!
Suhayl claims to be one of the “Muslims” but then he exhibits a disconnect that is astounding. These people he condemns as “Islam-ists” a label that you rightly classify as racists and sectarian, then Suhayl validates his views by going on about the hookers in the knights bridge, and their clientèle of the rich sheikhs.
As we debate the poor Saudi families are getting imprisoned and tortured because they have complained about their deplorable living conditions. The bloggers who have highlighted the terrible poverty of the quarter of the indigenous population are imprisoned for speaking out. These poor Muslims are not “Islam-ists” or any other “-ist” they are punters in search of a bellyful of food, and a roof over their heads, yet their leaders are the very same pederasts who are the regular visitors of the hookers in Paris and in Knights bridge. Whilst parading their brand of Wahhabism. These charge hands know who they should suck up to and who they should kick down.
Suhayl blames the victims of these actors, and denounces anyone who will not agree with his narrow and impotent take on the Communism/left sensibilities.
The fact is, which one of you has ever taken the trouble of getting to know the difficulties of these people living in the god forsaken places, and to feel the same weight of these difficulties on your shoulders, and then find; can you take the next step without the aid of the certainty of your god being with you?
These people have nothing but their god to hang onto, and you want to deprive them from even that “luxury”?
I don’t want this to turn in to a thread which is all about why I think what about who. What needed to be said was said, and then repeated over and over.
I’m going to move on now.
When it comes to the Egyptian left. I think they realised just how little support they had in Egypt. They had the option of remaining in obscurity. Or siding with the winning side. And the winning side is the side with the guns.
This is exactly what happened to the Iraq left, when the Americans invaded.
They choose to side with the invaders.
RAND stated they will coopt leftest in a selective way to do this.
This will not support leftest or help them take power. What they will do is make it clear to them they are in the same side with them against who rand defines as traditionalists and fundamentalists.
I am not sure what planet leftests think they live in?
Do they really think Baradi and general sisi will be leftists?
They don’t know the situation in Egypt.
Try and explain it to them. The idealogical divide, is compounding the misunderstanding.
One day, Arsalan, you may emerge from your ideological dwam and when you do, I would like you please to remember this conversation.
Fedup, I think it is deeply cynical of you to have egged on Arsalan in the manner you appear to have done on this thread.
Both of you, what you are proposing is a form of Orientalism – a natvist, tribal ideology that actually is based on modern European concepts, rather than in Islam – and it has, and will continue to, ghettoise Muslims in this country, both internally and externally. Your political ideology has not done Muslim people – us – any favours, quite the opposite. It and Far Right racism, feed off one another, empower one another. Your views, to which you are fully entitled, are not shared by the majority of Muslim people in this country, or globally. I want to make clear, here, that you do not monopolise the discourse with power, with civic society, with matters pertaining to social class, economics or indeed religion.
I fought racism and bigotry of all kinds on the street, among communities and on the page, long, long before you, Arsalan, was a Muslim. We speak with a clear voice and never again will we be silenced. And we really are millions.
Arsalan, I don’t get it. Even if you are right about Egyptian voters, and Suhayl, despite his analysis of the IMF’s role, completely wrong, I don’t see how you can justify calling him a liar, a hypocrite and so on. If he were a liar and a hypocrite, he would be pretending to agree with you. Instead, he is advancing several reasons why your point of view is questionable. You have not mentioned the IMF, or the US sponsorship of the Brotherhood. Instead you’re calling him a racist and again, it’s not possible to see why.
Fedup, thanks for your view of the poor masses. Again, I don’t see why pointing out the hypocrisy of their rulers is either racist, or anti-Muslim, or pro anything apart from a small measure of truth and reality. People, including rulers, do not, in my experience, benefit from being forced into narrow boxes. If they can, they will break out of them.
Finally, I was the person suggesting that ‘Islamist’ was a shorthand for the lunatic fringe, not Suhayl. I was thinking of people like Hesb and Hekmatyar. Seems it can now, more widely, mean, someone who either believes in the Caliphate or not, but who supports sharia whatever? I’m still not going to use it but apologise if I skewed it too far.
So you propose to enforce EU regulations and standards on Afghans and Pakistanis?
The thrust of my argument has been; let them be, and let them find their own way out of the mess that we in the West have created for them. Have you just understood that and are set against it too?
Your argument here is on two issues, the Muslims in this country, and the Muslims in their own lands, which one are you talking about mate?
Finally why do you think am I egging on Arsalan?
So far on this thread there has been not a great deal of understanding about the Egyptians and their sudden permitted experiment in democracy that subsequently has gone pear shaped and handed back to Generals.
You know, what is strange is he claims to be a commi, and he says he supports the demonstrators. Even though the person in charge of the demos was Naguib Sawiris, the second riches man in egypt.
lol
he is a joke or just really very ignorant.
Arsalan, if I may ask, what are you views on lesbian, gay, bisexual and trans-gender human beings?
drat, Arsalan, please provide links instead of shouting? It’s news to me that the demonstrations are being led by a very rich person, for example. Link please!
Just been looking a bit and the alternative truth is indeed that Morsi had turned his back on the IMF which is why he had to go:
“Rather than seeking a deal with the IMF, Morsi turned to other Arab states for financial support. An EU source said that some in the interim administration are talking of resuming negotiations with the IMF, because they want Egypt’s credit status to be stabilised, as one signal that the country itself is becoming more stable.”
http://www.europeanvoice.com/article/2013/july/eu-calls-for-morsi-s-release/77937.aspx
This is all quite a bit of research which I have not much time for but which seems to me valuable, since it’s not really the main story. I’ve been away, Arsalan, and I am quite ignorant about this. So if anyone else has any good links, please, as Jon says, post.
(Btw where did Suhayl say he was a ‘commi’? And what is wrong with being a ‘commi’?)
Posting this again from Anon, earlier –
A larger point is that the rhetorical dynamic in the immediate aftermath of the Morsi regime’s fall has been misguided. The Western press was full of sombre meditations on the fall of an “electorally legitimate” regime and the apparent failure of a “democratic experiment.” In opposition to this, some of the most articulate voices among the many millions who marched on June 30 were angry at having their successful campaign against Muslim Brotherhood rule labelled as a “coup” rather than an on-going struggle for true democracy. But the coup vs. will of the people debate goes nowhere. It is better to put these terms to the side and acknowledge that among the diversity of interests that motivated people to enter the streets on June 30 there was significant input not just from the old regime, but also from the security state. This is not to say that Morsi’s opponents actually were nothing but filul, as his supporters often claimed. But alongside well-justified objections by Morsi’s opponents to the American media’s failure to understand what was happening in Egypt, a narrative crystalised of plucky youth challenging the Morsi regime by circulating a petition. It is important to move beyond this attractive image before it turns into another over-romanticised and ultimately distracting “Facebook Revolution” legend. The story of tamarrud as a brave act of resistance is by no means wrong, but neither is it sufficient to explain the current situation.
…Walter Armbrust is Hourani Fellow and University Lecturer in Modern Middle East Studies at Oxford University.
It is a lot more involved than that. IMF was intent on “restructuring the economy” ie Greece redux. Morsi had no alternative but to turn to the Saudi and Qatari sheikhs and the subsequent change of stance on Syria, as a manifest and direct result of paying fealty to his new best sponsors.
Morsi was a weak president knowingly thrown in among the wolves and he could not deliver. Further his life was made even more difficult by various elements within the government, army and yes the rich in Egypt. Check out Naguib Sawiris Note the mickey mouse and mini mouse in Islamic garb joke, and the references. Also noteworthy; he was the broker between Mubarak and the revolutionaries.
It is wheels within wheels, and it is more fucking convoluted than the Chinese courts. Fact that al Sisi arrived and shoved more than sis hundred MB leadership into jail is not given any publicity.
Al Sisi is another US trained General in charge of the military controlled enterprises. He is no liberal, or a nationalist, he is the epitome of the graduates of the “school of Americas” kind of a place for the mid east.
===
Arsalan, don’t emphasis the “ignorant” it is no sin; not to know, best try and explain the facts, the sources of information available to most people in the west does not include the full picture (wonder why?).
BTW skip the inflammatory questions tabled at you, or it will be a fuckfestfrago without the ziofuckwits pressing a key on their keyboard.
come offit. Inflammatory questions tabled at Arsalan. When Suhayl has been greeted throughout with consummately hysterical language – liar, hypocrite, blah blah. If you think that, under cover of the Eqypt question, this attempted bullying and dismissal of a particular and humane perspective has gone unnoticed, you are wrong.
In fact, for shame. If I wasn’t quite sure that Suhayl is fair-minded, and would therefore want to see this, I wouldn’t be posting it. You could have scuppered a valid perspective just by being horrible. Think on.
http://www.voltairenet.org/article179480.html
It’s a very simple question, Arsalan. Why would it be “inflammatory”? Why would such a question inflame someone? Here it is again:
“Arsalan, if I may ask, what are you views on lesbian, gay, bisexual and trans-gender human beings?” Me.
Human rights is a key issue, in Egypt and across the Middle East. LGBT rights form a key part of that fabric.
And Fedup, why is it unacceptable to ask questions about LGBT rights?
Technicolour, thanks again. Much appreciated.
Wrt the “Commie” thing, I wrote that I was not a liberal, but “a Red under the bed”.
Arsalan conveniently took this to mean that I am a Communist, which I am not. But you see, if I am painted as a Communist, then I cannot be a Muslim and that would be a convenient configuration in this specific dialectical framework.
I am a Muslim and I have socialist views.
You damn fine well know the answer, don’t you?
Other than intention on painting the Muslims as a bunch of “savages” why did you ask the question?
Whilst everyday Muslims in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somali, ……. are droned, dying from the most trivial of diseases, getting blown up as collateral damage, have little food, shelter, no access to education, medicine, ….. Never mind all these basic problems. Explore the minority fucking vociferous cause of Gay, Lesbian Bi-sexual and Transgender (sex,sex,sex,sex) that is in shorthand too, the fuckers cant be arsed to write it out in whole and it has come to be a Q code (don’t know that fucking tough) to be splattered all over the place, exposing the ultimate sin of the fucking Muslims, get the ducking stool out, and waterboard the bastards.
Suhayl you have a nasty streak a fucking mile wide, you are trying to paint the Muslims in the worst possible light and will not cease to resort to the lowest denominator tricks in the book, the latest of which is the LBGT.
Asking rhetorical questions, why don’t you go ahead and fucking answer the question, yourself. You have no intentions of reaching an understanding, you are too busy being fucking clever, sort of a Muslim Habashagfuckwit opposite number.
PS you do know that in the Islamic Republic of Iran there is a government grant which transgender patients can apply for to help them pay the costs of their gender change operations?
====
Now the debate has moved on to a new low.
Dissembling the truth, only to reiterate the current wave of hatred and prejudice against Muslims coming from any quarter is wrong and despicable be it from the purported Muslims, or card carrying members of the EDL.
Then the final link to the Voltaire I did not know that!!!!!!
I wrote earlier Wheels within Wheels, did you think I am referring to some kind of a Ferris wheel?
Mid east is a dangerous place, strange place, nothing is at seems, and anyone taking the time to study it, will be amazed at the fluidity of the relationships, and rules of contract. The more you find out the more you shall realize how little you know?
Fedup, I don’t know if it is cruel or not to laugh at you. You genuinely appear to be mentally disturbed. Normally I’d entertain the possibility of your posts being a tedious exercise in pranking, but you’re not even funny enough for that theory to pan out.
Not only are your comments mostly devoid of coherence, structure, cogency and intellectual value, they are also clearly repulsive to people who might even agree with some of your points (if they can be called that). Simply put, you have the personality of an ugly, spoilt, child who was once raped by a Catholic priest dressed up as a Teletubby – the purple one would be my guess. So you can understand why I feel conflicted about whether or not to pity you.
I think you have also received extraordinary leniency in the moderation of this thread given the readiness of Jon to excise comments that dare to approach the invisible line that must not be crossed. Perhaps you are seen to serve a useful purpose, say, as a political scarecrow?
Interesting too is what company you keep on this blog.
Fedup: “Mid east is a dangerous place, strange place, nothing is at seems, and anyone taking the time to study it, will be amazed at the fluidity of the relationships, and rules of contract. The more you find out the more you shall realize how little you know?”
– yes, exactly. And thanks for earlier background. am going to hunt for sources of disinformation in my spare time 🙂
I’d heard that about Iran before. Perhaps it is a bit unfair to ask Arsalan about LBGT rights – like asking Queen Victoria. No disrespect to either intended 🙂
Whether or not it is sly of Suhayl to ask Arsalan his views on LGBT issues, it is certainly fair. Does Arsalan hold no views? That would be ok. But if he does hold clear views, why be shy about sharing them unless fearful of the criticism that might follow?
I don’t particularly care what those views are and I wouldn’t beat Arsalan up regardless of what they are. But the sneaky way others have hurredly interposed to head off a potentially embarrasing conflict of opinion is very telling.
Suhayl, I’d press ahead and encourage Arsalan to share his views and in your own polite way explore the issues of melding orthodox Islamic principles with modern demands for social pluralism. I think this might have been an issue that aggravated dissent in Egypt prior to Morsi’s ousting.
” ‘And Fedup, why is it unacceptable to ask questions about LGBT rights?’
You damn fine well know the answer, don’t you?
Other than intention on painting the Muslims as a bunch of “savages” why did you ask the question?” Fedup.
Well, no. I am Muslim and have views on LGBT rights. I do not regard myself as a savage. Is this simply more Orientalism on your part?
Here is a Muslim academic/activist, Amanullah de Sondy who has progressive views on LGBT rights, among other things. He is deeply devout and has a PhD in Islamic Studies.
http://progressivescottishmuslims.blogspot.co.uk/
And here is the Muslim Institute’s website. They publish a regular magazine, entitled, ‘Critical Muslim’, which I would thoroughly recommend to anyone. Among their leading lights are Merryl Wyn davies, Ziauddin Sardar and Robin Yassin-Kassab.
http://www.musliminstitute.org/
As I said, human rights are of key importance in the Middle East and in Egypt specifically. The rights of religious minorities and indeed of everyone, is of key importance. My view would be that LGBT rights include all of those broader umbrella rights but that there are other, specific rights, which it inmportant they are granted.
I agree with Jemand. I’m not sure why asking this is question would be deemed, unfair. It is a question that is being discussed widely in Muslim fora, inclduing the two which I gave above. Arsalan self-evidently is not Queen Victoria and in any case, why would one not put the question to Queen Victoria (if she were still alive)? She might even have been amused!
And Fedup, are you Arsalan’s keeper? I didn’t ask you your views on LGBT rights, though I would be very happy to hear them if you wish to share them with everyone.
“Arsalan self-evidently is not Queen Victoria” – 🙂
I agree, actually (I only said ‘perhaps a bit unfair’) And I don’t see how the question’s an attempt to paint Muslims as savages – of course not.
Jemand – Censorship Improves History goes on record;
What is the reason anyone could afford any latitude of tolerance for this exchange?
I would like to know!
Passerby, it was a literary device – imagery to describe the internal rage of a tortured soul. Feel free to use it, if you like.
Thanks, Technicolour.
“PS you do know that in the Islamic Republic of Iran there is a government grant which transgender patients can apply for to help them pay the costs of their gender change operations?” Fedup.
Yes, I was aware of that. I’m also aware of state policy in Iran towards gay men.
But I wasn’t asking Iran. I was asking Arsalan.