The Respectability of Torture
St Mary’s University College, Thurs 1st August, 7.30pm
Craig Murray, former British ambassador to Uzbekistan, was a whistleblower who was removed from his ambassadorial post by Tony Blair for exposing the Tashkent regime‟s use of rape and systematic torture, including the boiling to death of political opponents. He has also spoken out against Central Asia‟s appalling dictatorships, regimes which are allies of the West, involved in torture and rendition, and was accused of threatening MI6‟s relationship with the CIA. Now a human rights activist, author and broadcaster, he outlines the dynamics of torture and the hypocrisy of incriminated Western governments.
My first public appearance for a while will be in Belfast on 1 August where I shall be giving a talk. Long term readers of this blog will recall that, while my focus is largely on international affairs, the domestic political achievements I most hope to see are a united Ireland and an independent Scotland.
Villager,
You really don’t understand UK, err, “culture” do you?
Just to add to the general off-topicness..
Drawing on Will Self’s Quantity Theory of Insanity, I think it is inevitable that there should be such a diverse range of opinions in the world. For all the extreme positions out there, the sum total of it, however, rarely exceeds zero thus accounting for the natural conservative tendencies of democratic decision-making processes (e.g. committees). The point is that extreme views held by some do not matter much if decisions are properly democratic (‘elections do not a democracy make’ caveat applies, echoing Jon). Extreme views are generally neutered by equally extreme and opposing views, but even more importantly they have no chance of attaining majority support. And perhaps to go even further – the majority may turn out to have eccentric opinions on some pet subject(s) of theirs, but just like ants pulling along objects, it is the sum total of the forces that matters. In a true democracy, radical left and radical right more or less cancel out, and any other randomly opposing views, leaving the outcomes to be determined by the ones who feel obliged to think before they answer. So I worry less about an individual’s professed views and more about how they propose to remedy the problems that they perceive. If their favoured course is to make the country genuinely more democratic, I am interested.
It would be better, I think, if there were no name-calling and other variations on ad hominem attacks here. Exposing fatal flaws in each other’s arguments can be fun but it is the essence of how we discover the truth. No amount of supporting evidence can conclusively prove a theory, but it only takes a single contradicting fact to disprove it. To quote someone, somewhere: “you will know a clever person by their answers, and a wise one by their questions”. If the truths you hold are so dear to you that you cannot stand them being questioned, then they could turn out to be prejudices, how would you know?
” radical left and radical right more or less cancel out, and any other randomly opposing views, leaving the outcomes to be determined by the ones who feel obliged to think before they answer”
I wish that were true. Fact is; the extreme right has moved the needle effectively, so that the supposed moderates end-up Center/right, which makes the far left a loony bin of dirty fucking hippies, or somesuch, and thereby cancel out any sort of equitable power to resist the same way the Tea Party successfully embargoes any move which could result in success for the first BP.
POTUS of course acts more like head Butler in the WH, and feels no pain from ignoring his putative base, the Left.
Ben,
I was talking about a hypothetical real democracy. What you have in the US is a shamocracy just like what we have here in the UK. Still, nothing that couldn’t be sorted out long after we are gone 🙂
Komodo,
I am reliably informed by my Welsh friends that there are only two kinds of people in the world – Welsh, and those who wish they were 🙂
Evgueni: Haven’t heard that one, but then – we are renowned for our modesty 😉
Just waded through the day’s offerings. Thanks to all for such a clear rejection of Henchman Anon’s orders.
Wrt Bradley Manning; what a hero! 35 years for doing the honourable thing while killers and thieves are honoured or excused. That old American gift for irony strikes again!
……….
@Villager.
I have to admire your stamina. Come on, admit it, you’ve been doing that inner work stuff again, haven’t you? I don’t think you need to worry about “lowering yourself” after today’s performance. Wouldn’t Krishnamurty have been proud of his envoy?
I look forward to seeing your staying-power directed to debating issues. You choose.
Ben Franklin: You are absolutely correct, the Reich(t) has been steadily increasing its radicalism, so a “moderate” today would be rightly identified as a swivel-eyed extremist just a decade or so ago. It’s amazing to note that Saint Ronnie would not be accepted in the Republican party today, because his positions would identify him as a commie/marxist/ etc. that would get him instantly expelled.
The modern Republican party is basically extremist at its base – not a single incoming freshman to the senate or congress will accept the reality of climate change, for example, or believes in evolution. They reject _science itself_. That’s just the start of what is necessary to be just to the right of the new centre.
Look at the Rep. platform from the 1950s, 60’s, etc., and any teabagger would consider it to be straight from the Communist Manifesto (assuming they’d heard of the term).
But then, in the late 1990s, Dennis Skinner (IIRC) said that the fastest way to move towards the left wing in the UKs Labour movement was to maintain your ideological position for six months.
A Node @ 11;21
OMG
Brilliant post…Effin hell.
I shall Steal a section from you’re Post if i may
” In April of this year, Israeli Col. Bentzi Gruber spoke at Florida Atlantic University (FAU). His speech was propaganda, touting the ethics of the Israeli military. He offered a defense of his own actions in Operation Cast Lead, an Israeli military operation that resulted in the killing of over 1,400 Palestinians in Gaza, most of them civilians, and at least 300 minors. Human rights organizations such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch documented evidence that Israel committed war crimes and crimes against humanity during the 2008-2009 attacks.
As FAU students and Palestinian human rights activists, we could not stand idly by as this member of a foreign military that is guilty of committing serious war crimes used student tuitionpaid public space to spread falsehoods about what happened in Gaza. Two days before the event, we addressed two university officials. We expressed our concerns and disapproval of an event of this nature. We reminded the officials that some students on campus had family members killed by the Israeli military during Operation Cast Lead. We received no response, and it became clear to us that the university administration was apathetic to human rights when it comes to those of Palestinians.
Out of a resolute commitment to human rights, we attended the event and peacefully walked out in protest. After the speaker’s opening remarks, one of us stood up and read a few facts concerning the war crimes committed in Operation Cast Lead. This very brief commentary was met by derogatory slurs from non-student members of the audience, who accused us of being “spies,” “terrorists,” and other offensive names. We raised a banner that read “War Criminal” as we walked out. The duration of the entire incident was no more than one or two minutes. The event continued afterward, for about an hour and a half. We peacefully protested outside for about half an hour”.
FAU Students – Nadine Aly, Noor Fawzy, and Renata Glebocki
@ Kempe 21 Aug, 2013 – 11:23 pm
“I’m surprised that there is anyone unaware of Bronson, he was the subject of a 2009 film and has published numerous books.”
I’d never heard. Took a quick read. A remarkable character, not one I’d want as a roomie or cellie.
Favorite item: “He carried out his most infamous hostage incident in 1998, when he took two Iraqi hijackers and another inmate hostage at Belmarsh prison in London. Insisting his hostages call him “General”, he told negotiators he would eat one of his victims before demanding a helicopter to Cuba along with a cheese and pickle sandwich to end the stand off.”
Cheese and pickle sandwich. He can’t be all bad. As always, I have an answer to the dilemma. Build a new super-super-max prison and appoint him warden. He appears uniquely qualified to keep unruly prisoners under control.
@ A Node 21 Aug, 2013 – 11:21 pm
“Never mind about freedom of speech. Now we’re losing the freedom to choose what we listen to.”
Too funny. I recall the hippie free-speech movement, which was not at all about free-speech, but shouting down and disrupting any speaker with which they disagreed. Now we’ve come around to compulsory listening.
Expect the students will be forced to pay for their re-education classes, as we are for compulsory good-driving, anger-management, good-parenting, sensitivity training and myriad other rehabilitation classes.
Have not yet heard of any good-lawn-watering or good-recycling-classes, but bet $1 there’s some town somewhere that has those and compels people to take them in lieu of draconian fines.
Wait for street preachers and telemarketers to adopt this practice and have you arrested if you refuse to listen to the entirety of their message.
As Villager noted earlier, we should spare some thought for Bradley Manning.
Manning comforts his legal team
One of the UK’s growth industries. Bailiffs.
Councils call in bailiffs for 1.8m debts, says charity
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23770628
Predominantly Birmingham, London Boroughs and Cornwall, Sheffield and Coventry are also listed.
‘..the most common debts referred by local authorities were council tax arrears, business rate arrears and parking fines.’
NR.
The Students said their protest lasted about 2 mins….Then outside venue for 30 mins.. And since they know folks murdered by the swines… Forget about Hippies…what THF is too funny…
Nothing at all Funny about this
There was an interesting programme on the World Service earlier.
Gene Patenting
Duration: 29 minutes
Ever since the mapping of the human genome was completed 10 years ago medical companies have been rushing to patent genes that define all of us for their own exclusive use. Now the US Supreme Court has ruled against patenting things found in nature. Peter Day asks what this means for the biotech business and for the future of healthcare.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01dyv9s
Further background
Corporate Genetics
Even without gene patents, companies are monopolizing genetic data.
By Robert Nussbaum on August 21, 2013
In June the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that patents on genes were invalid. Yet corporate intellectual-property claims can still harm patients.
The court struck down patents held by Myriad Genetics on two human genes linked to breast and ovarian cancers, BRCA1 and BRCA2. The decision ended the company’s U.S. monopoly on testing those two genes for cancer-related mutations. But Myriad is now using a different tactic that restricts patient choice around genetic testing. The company has constructed a database of the genetic variants found in people who took its BRCA test. That unparalleled record of the natural variation in these important genes—collected from patients—is claimed to be Myriad’s own intellectual property.
http://www.technologyreview.com/view/518376/corporate-genetics/
~~
Other programmes by Peter Day.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/worldbiz
Nr might have been too quick there regards humour…Hope so… Jon is correct touchy crew at times
Pink Floyd star’s new Israel boycott letter to “family of Rock and Roll”
Pink Floyd star Roger Waters has today published a long-awaited open letter calling on his fellow musicians to boycott Israel.
The letter explains that Waters has been part of the boycott, divestment and sanctions movement for seven years, and has been mulling the letter over for some time.
He condemns Israeli human rights violations and explains the reasons to act:
/..
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/asa-winstanley/pink-floyd-stars-new-israel-boycott-letter-family-rock-and-roll
Yes.Flaming…. I thought you had posted this before,,,under the Nigel kennedy Furoror…just for your info..Roger waters is no longer with Pink Floyd,
However they are both HUGE and always will be Lol
It looks like Scotland have their own whistleblower following in the footsteps of Manning and Snowden. An email has been released to the press revealing the wrongdoings of our government in trying to deceive the people.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-23790083
Brian It’s a new letter from him. He think he had written to NK and generally before. I am waiting to see the BBC4 replay at 7.30pm tomorrow and to find if Baroness Deech and her cohort have had their way in getting NK’s words deleted.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b038rp8h
I saw this on Ma’an yesterday. They have no intention of having peace.
Israel strengthening Bethlehem settlements, group says
21/08/2013 20:04
BETHLEHEM (Ma’an) — Israel is intensifying settlement expansion in the West Bank only weeks after peace talks resumed between Israel and the Palestinians following US pressure, a Bethlehem-based research institute said Wednesday.
Israeli settlers are working to turn illegal outposts in eastern Bethlehem into permanent settlements officially recognized by the Israeli government.
/..
http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=622850
and this
In Occupied Palestine
Zionism in practice
Israel’s Daily Toll on Palestinian Life, Limb, Liberty and Property
Compiled by Leslie Bravery, Palestine Human Rights Campaign POB 56150, Dominion Rd, Auckland, New Zealand http://www.palestine.org.nz
19 and 20 August 2013 Main source of statistics: Palestinian Monitoring Group (PMG). http://www.nad-plo.org/dailyreports.php
2:20am: death, critical woundings and beating as refugee camp endures Israeli Army home invasions
Israeli Army fire wounds 2 Jabalya youngsters
Israeli Navy opens fire on Palestinian fishing boats (3 attacks)
More night home invasions: 5 people tear-gassed in their homes
Israeli Army partially demolishes home and destroys the owner’s olive trees
Israeli forces issue eviction and transfer orders on Jericho residents
Israeli troops abduct 6 Palestinian youngsters aged 14 to 17
Israeli Army demolishes farm buildings in 4 West Bank locations
Night peace disruption and/or home invasions in 4 refugee camps and 20 towns and villages
5 attacks – 41 raids including home invasions
1 beaten – 1 dead – 8 injured
9 acts of agricultural/economic sabotage
26 taken prisoner – 20 detained – 115 restrictions of movement
Transparency of Lobbying (etc) Bill –
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/cbill/2013-2014/0097/cbill_2013-20140097_en_2.htm#pt1-pb2-l1g3
Consultant lobbying will continue unchanged except that there will be a register of consultant lobbyists. Except for those fly enough to erect a corporate structure purporting to do something else, with a side order of lobbying – lobby hobbyists, as it might be….
Carrying on the business of consultant lobbying
Part 1 5Exceptions
1 Nothing in this Act—
(a) affects the application of any enactment or rule of law preventing the
freedom of speech and debates or proceedings in Parliament being
impeached or questioned in any court or place out of Parliament, or
(b) 10otherwise affects the scope of the exclusive cognisance of Parliament.
2 (1) A Member of Parliament who makes communications within section 2(3) on
behalf of a person or persons resident in his or her constituency does not, by
reason of those communications, carry on the business of consultant
lobbying.
(2) 15In sub-paragraph (1) “resident” has the meaning which it has for the
purposes of section 4 of the Representation of the People Act 1983
(entitlement to be registered as a parliamentary elector).
3 (1) A person does not carry on the business of consultant lobbying if—
(a) the person (or, where the person is an employee, the person’s
20employer) carries on a business which is mainly a non-lobbying
business, and
(b) the making of communications within section 2(3) on behalf of
another person or persons in return for payment is an insubstantial
proportion of that business.
(2) 25In sub-paragraph (1)(a) a business is mainly a “non-lobbying business” if it
consists mainly of activities other than making, on behalf of another person
or persons, communications which—
(a) relate to any of the matters mentioned in section 2(3)(a) to (d), and
(b) are made to any of the persons within sub-paragraph (3).
(3) 30The persons are—
(a) members of, and office-holders in, government, and
(b) officials and members of staff of government.
(4) For the purposes of this paragraph, “government” includes—
(a) Her Majesty’s Government in the United Kingdom,
(b) 35the Scottish Administration,
(c) the Welsh Assembly Government,
(d) any Northern Ireland department,
(e) the Government of any sovereign Power other than the United
Kingdom,
(f) local government in any part of the United Kingdom, and
(g) 5any institution of the European Union;
(and the references to “the government” in section 2(3)(a) to (d) as applied
by sub-paragraph (2)(a) are to be read accordingly).
4 A person does not carry on the business of consultant lobbying if—
(a) the person (or, where the person is an employee, the person’s
10employer) acts generally as a representative of persons of a
particular class or description,
(b) the income of the person (or employer) derives wholly or mainly
from persons of that class or description, and
(c) the making of communications within section 2(3) on behalf of those
15persons is no more than an incidental part of that general activity.
5 (1) A person who, as an official or member of staff of—
(a) a sovereign Power other than the United Kingdom, or the
Government of such a Power, or
(b) an international organisation,
20makes communications within section 2(3) on its behalf does not, by reason
of those communications, carry on the business of consultant lobbying.
(2) An “international organisation” is any organisation which, for the purposes
of section 1 of the International Organisations Act 1968, is declared to be (or
is treated as being) an organisation of which—
(a) 25the United Kingdom, or Her Majesty’s Government in the United
Kingdom, and
(b) at least one other sovereign Power, or the Government of such a
Power,
are members.
(3) 30Regulations may specify other organisations which are to be “international
organisations” for the purposes of this paragraph.
Plenty of wriggle room there for an imaginative semantic analyst.
Thanks, Fred, for that:
Better Together campaign director Blair McDougall said if the allegations against Yes Scotland were true, they “fatally undermined” trust in the independence campaign.
He said: “Who else received payment? Who knew that this kind of payment was being authorised by the campaign’s chief executive?
“What other supposedly independent voices are being paid bungs to say what the nationalists want? What else are they willing to do to deceive the people of Scotland?”,
I can only wonder which supposedly independent voices are being incentivised to say the opposite.
However, from experience of being paid peanuts for newspaper articles, I’m inclined to believe Yes Scotland when it says – as the article reports –
“”However, given persistent unhelpful speculation, we can confirm that in the course of a wide-ranging discussion with Dr Bulmer it was suggested that he, as an academic working in a private capacity, might consider writing an article on matters about constitutional frameworks based on his expertise.
“At his request, he was paid a nominal fee for the considerable time and effort he spent on it. We had no input to, or any influence over, what he wrote.”
The question of who hacked Yes Scotland is under police scrutiny and sub judice I suppose. But
Means?
Motive?
Opportunity?
Fred – in Scotland as anywhere else, all shades of political opinion are equally unscrupulous. If you doubt me, sign up as a helper for your preferred party at the next General Election.
Coming soon to a minister near you – JCB Bell Pottinger’s representative. This will be an unpaid intern, since:
5. (5) A statement under this subsection is a statement that, in the quarter in
question, the registered person neither engaged in lobbying in return for
payment nor received payment to engage in lobbying. (link above)
Bad law, if it passes. A sop to the Daily Mail reader and not much else.
@FJ. 8 19am
Thanks for the list. Just another quiet day in Occupied Palestine then.
Here’s something from JFJP.
“Buy our weapons – we have tried this at home.”
Does posting this mean I need “re-educating”?
…
@Komodo. 8 48am
Another list. More thanks.
What a bloody waste of ink.
Eco and Tax-payer-friendly version, “ Exceptions: Pretty much anything we want.”
I see the “ziofuckwit” has been googled and shoved on the thread by the same fucking nitwit, who is peddling krishn……. and pronounced as “embarrassment at the font end”!
Embarrassment is killing innocent people in Palestine,
Embarrassment it stealing the Palestinian lands,
Embarrassment is illegal detentions, of children,
Embarrassment is to keep on lying to the world; whilst killing, maiming, stealing, jailing, of the Palestinians.
Embarrassment is to be a silent witness to; the murders, land thefts, kidnap and imprisonment of children, genocide of the Palestinians.
Embarrassment is not calling the said bunch of murdering, stealing, kidnapping bastard ziofuckwits.
The only contributions of this village tosser are his constant moans, and groans that are filling the threads with a barrage of nonsense. Google ziofuckwit until you drop dead villagewanker, I know and the rest of the world knows that truth fucking hurts, but kirsh…. will probably have another lecture; don’t do as I fucking do, and do as I say! Aye villagewanker.
So far UK citizens are not forced to attend “re-education” program designed by Israel lobby group so there is no embarrassment in calling a ziofcukwit a ziofcukwit. Further I intend to keep it that way, much to the chagrin of ziofuckwits the likes of your kirsh….self!
People googling “villager” will see the hypocrisy and embarrassment of teaching everyone to kowtow to ziofuckwitry in an oh so inner crapola life loving kirsh,….. way; do as I say, don’t fucking do as I do.
That may well be. It appears that Villager doesn’t know that the term “dry up” is roughly the same as “shut up”. (I haven’t heard it for a while, but my brother used to use it a lot years ago.)
However, I think Villager simply invented the silly word “wetism” in an attempt to justify his use of ageism. And I think he knows it’s silly. Which is why he got more and more stubborn and angry last night.
Whatever.
I’m taking a break from here.
——————————————–
NR said
“He would be a US citizen, but I don’t think that is what determines jurisdiction.”
No, I didn’t think it did. I was responding to this, by you,
“How are foreigners, committing what may or may not be crimes in other countries, subject to US law?”
Offhand, I can’t quote Irish law on hosting child porn. But I’ll look it up while I’m gone. My point was that from a U.S. perspective, he’s presumably not a “foreigner”.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/alleged-child-porn-facilitator-further-remanded-1.1494985
——————————————–
Ciao
Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)
21 Aug, 2013 – 4:44 pm
“You shouldn’t judge a post on its length…”
Quite true Habbabkuk.
The posts in my garden are three foot tall – not long.
Your posts are tall (stories).
Fedup, easy does it. Please don’t pour petrol on the fire – Villager is welcome to decry the use of that colourful phrase if he wishes, although we’ve covered that ground already. “Discouraged but not forbidden”, I think summarises Craig’s perspective.
I am inclined to delete your abuse of Villager, but I’m in trouble with one faction if I do, and in trouble with another if I don’t. Thus, please, leave “wanker” and all other similar nonsense in the pub – it loses you the argument here.
What is life like on $2 a day in the land of the free. My colleagues, Gilbert Mercier and Dady Chery present the facts on what rampant capitalism and war has done to the USA.
http://newsjunkiepost.com/2013/08/21/life-on-2-a-day-us-extreme-poverty-on-the-rise/
Here is the link again for those who missed it on the last page. $2 a day and bugger-all to do.
http://newsjunkiepost.com/2013/08/21/life-on-2-a-day-us-extreme-poverty-on-the-rise/