The Respectability of Torture
St Mary’s University College, Thurs 1st August, 7.30pm
Craig Murray, former British ambassador to Uzbekistan, was a whistleblower who was removed from his ambassadorial post by Tony Blair for exposing the Tashkent regime‟s use of rape and systematic torture, including the boiling to death of political opponents. He has also spoken out against Central Asia‟s appalling dictatorships, regimes which are allies of the West, involved in torture and rendition, and was accused of threatening MI6‟s relationship with the CIA. Now a human rights activist, author and broadcaster, he outlines the dynamics of torture and the hypocrisy of incriminated Western governments.
My first public appearance for a while will be in Belfast on 1 August where I shall be giving a talk. Long term readers of this blog will recall that, while my focus is largely on international affairs, the domestic political achievements I most hope to see are a united Ireland and an independent Scotland.
@ Resident Dissident
Anything new on that anti-Jewish post from someone using the handle “Flaming June” on the Stormfront website (cf your post at 23h02 and The CE’s at 23h04)?
There seem to be two possibilities:
– either that post was by this blog’s “Flaming June” (but would she be so careless as to use the same moniker?)
– or it was by someone seeking to discredit her (but that would be quite a roundabout way of doing it).
A real mystery. A confirmation or denial would seem to be in order.
I have just posted this to say that Israel, US and UK governments are nice people and always put the best interests of the most vulnerable first far above profits and short term geopolitical strategic gains.
In fact if you don’t believe the above then you must definitely be one of those conspiracy theorists.
RD: read it, several times, over the years. It’s the accusation of ‘hating a country’ which I find very bizarre, hence the reference to topography. Actually, I think people generally mean the weather. Which is strange because it also makes people what they are. Very noticeable.
” there used to be a time when folk music was very popular in left wing circles.”
I see a fine distinction between ‘Patriot’ and ‘Nationalism’ RD as you describe. I understand your point about valuing the contributions of a culture, but to my thinking the two ideas are the same.
Remember Judy Collins’ Patriot Game? Folk music for sure and still revered by me, if I am at all representative of the Left.
Technicolour
Of course I don’t support the far right – I am just wondering how St Julian’s apostles who visit us from time to time are going to justify this apparent deviation. They had a pretty hilarious try justifying his taking the Putin shilling for his work for RT – and I’m sure we will see similar convoluted logic this time.
Glen UK – thanks
Then there is a question, and my own view, on which I would genuinely welcome opinion:
Mistakes. How do you distinguish between responsibility between an accidental error and one which is deliberately made? I favour giving more mitigation to mistakes which are accidental. But if public world opinion judges the consequences of accidental mistakes to be of grave error does that make the original error more important despite its unintentional consequence? Instinctively I would prefer to defend accidental mistake. But how can it be defended when emotional or moral force implies you are wrong?
JM
Technicolour
“At least we are free to complain”
State and religious spying of today aim to put back the clock to a tie when our lives were 100$ controlled by observers of state and religious powers.
Political Islam only exists because certain so-called Muslims agree to sell what does not belong to them, i.e. our freedom, to the state which agrees to deliver to them other things in exchange which do not belong the state either, such as territory in Syria.
The political transaction takes place over our heads as if we the people were nothing. That is what the English Civil War freed us from, deals between power brokers over the heads of the people.
The solution was for the people to utilise the power of the Gospels to assert truth over the spurious logics of state and religion. The translation of the scriptures into the vernacular was the tool that broke the lies of existing power.
I only come here to assert my human freedom never to submit to the liars, with their dirty tricks, such as the Zionist Obama and Cameron poisoning Syrians with chemical weapons. It is so obvious that the utter madman Assad is too deluded of his own right to power ever to give the Zionists the excuse to destroy him.
The war in Syria was started by UK snipers and Islam-fascists to change the perception of Islam to an extremely human-un-friendly one. It is the only chance the Zionists have to prevent Islam’s truth from dawning on the minds of all souls who yearn for justice.
It is the only chance the power-hungry, dictator-tortured, mad mullahs have to gain wealth and power, to sell their religion and their fellow humans to ignorance and war and the ignorance resulting from war.
Obama=Cameron=Israel=Saudi=Qatar=EU=NATO=UN=political Islam is the same as Medieval Kings, the Pope and the violence and corruption of his Catholic church.
Let’s get rid of them. Like last time. 1640…2040. The bankers and the politicians and the foaming mad mullahs are at war with us, so when are we going to engage our enemy with war?
Glen UK
Sorry. Question was not directed at you. I was interested in views from anyone on this thread. JM
James Mason; It would help if you gave a concrete example.
If JA believes that the Greens are going to vote for him just because of his record in exposing doublespeak, nothing to do with the company her keeps or approaches in his attempt to become senator, then he has underestimated the Greens.
I shall say no more than that. Political expediency does not stop for no one, not JA and not the Greens.
Sad to here that liberation comes through the barrel of a gun for some.
BTW. welcome James chat away, do you fear for the future of journalism, do the proposals to filter the internet and ban certain servers/providers of free information, free soft and hardware, open source access, does this disturb you?
Whats your idea on David Miranda’s case? Should partners of journalists, activists, non Governmental organisations and more, expect to get fleeced and have their freedom taken away, their private data confiscated and perused by ? well how many people have instant access to what was on his personal equipment?
maybe a good discussion to start of with, although I shall rest my head now. Good night.
@Jon. Gender and issues surrounding teenage years in turmoil will most likely feature during the next few days. I have taken the decision to call Chelsea by the name she wants to be known as.
Her stress levels must be astronomical and Ms Lind should be ashamed of her political judgement without much comparison to any other case but her own , red neck justice!
@ James Mason
“Habbabkuk. Please
understand that I will not be among those answering. This is not me being impolite. I’d just rather discuss with people who have something to say about issue not people. JM”
__________________
If that was intended to be a put down, it was based on the mistaken premiss that I was inviting you to engage with me. I was just inviting you to report back after a couple of months with your conclusions on whether you’ve found much serious debate or discussion. I wish you good luck in your endeavours.
Happenstance
Your opinions are about as useful as jokes in Chinese Xmas crackers are funny. Oh the anti-whistle-blower plastic-mini-whistle doesn’t work either.
I am so sick of hearing about JA the dictator narcissist. He is sequestered in an Embassy. His communications are limited. How can he govern? he can’t from a 12×12 room. Get him the fuck out of there.
James M: It strikes me that pure accidents are morally neutral. If I put on an odd pair of socks, that’s a mistake, or an accident, which is of very little consequence. If I’m going for the best-dressed-man-of-the-year competition that day, and my family’s livelihood depends on my winning it, then the odd pair of socks might be regarded as a ludicrous lack of attention to detail.
An “accident” in a car, say, is by definition something that was not intended. But if the “accident” happened after one had drank half a bottle of spirits, it can hardly be regarded as an accident at all – it was a likely outcome.
If the accident is of the “Aw, shucks – my bad – I started a war for no good reason” variety, I don’t think there is any excuse at all. In the Nuremberg trials, starting a war was declared the greatest of all war crimes, because it contains within it all the crimes against humanity that followed. If starting a war was necessary, that could only be because one was in full possession of all the facts, and one had absolute foresight about the consequence. Saying a war was started “in good faith” is simply not good enough.
Can you elaborate on the sort of circumstances of this accident/mistake that you had in mind? It’s open to too large an interpretation to give a decent reply as it is.
Jives, 2;31 am
Cheers Jives, good to see you popping in again.
Jon @ 10;33
Good points Jon, interesting about Gender Studies, a Brave Chelsea indeed,
Nevermind @ 8;25
Cheers, I hope you Enjoyed the Festival, and i see Ingo, Home in time for
a reminder of military might above you’re head,
Love the Quip about the boys in the bar thinking about their tony with that woman Lol
I know Subject of Hemp, cannabis, is very close to you’re heart
Had a listen to you’re talk at the LCA conference 2003. Good Stuff.
Anyway, on that subject if you haven’t read this piece, have a wee look, Some very interesting Revelations in there,
a good weekend to you
Here’s a wee bit from the article
Now, let’s ask ourselves something. Why would the pharmaceutical industry, the same companies who in the early 1900’s produced hemp medicine for decades, make a claim like that? As we all know, you cannot patent a plant or the naturally occurring compounds in the plant. For this reason, major pharmaceutical companies realized there was no money to be made, and were not interested in producing the plant. As a matter of fact, if it were legalized it would actually be detrimental to their business, similar to the situation facing the paper and fabric industries.
The Facts Are Right In Front Of Us
When you consider all of these facts, it is apparent why the ‘drug’ was classified like it was and made illegal. Pharmaceuticals is a business, and legalizing marijuana would mean losing hundreds of billions of dollars to a single, naturally occurring plant that anyone could grow in their backyard. The same goes for the hundreds of businesses in the paper and fabric industries that would lose profits to hemp substitutes. It is all about money and keeping the system chugging. That is why stories of an 8-month old child being cured of brain cancer from cannabis oil will never make headline news.
The only thing we can do is work together as a community to spread these stories ourselves. In an age where we are more connected than ever before, it is up to us to control the national discussion, and take the power out of the hands of large news corporations. Word of mouth is the most powerful tool we possess to fight this uphill battle against marijuana prohibition. Now is the time to take a stance
http://www.medicaljane.com/2013/01/23/exposed-the-full-story-behind-why-marijuana-is-illegal-and-classified-as-a-schedule-1-drug/
James, sure:
The discussion on Islamism is here – there’s one or two individuals who resorted to abuse, but read on anyway – I found the dynamics and analysis fascinating, and joined in myself.
I wrote a comment (which rather turned into a blog post) about the nature of the hard state after the NSA revelations, might be of interest.
An older thread on the Assange/Sweden affair is still ticking over, with some persistent and forensic analysis.
Elsewhere we have a long-running 9/11 thread, and there’s a 17K-comment discussion about the Al-Hilli case lurking hereabouts also (not sure if they are necessarily ideal examples, but both noteworthy).
You are more that welcome to start your own topic. It is generally requested that people keep to the topic when Craig posts, and then folks may drift onto other topics as they wish. I prefer people to refrain from ad hominem and/or making third-person commentary about other posters, but no political views are censored (minor exceptions for racism).
Ben
Read the Lion and the Unicorn – Nationalism is about an inate sense of superiority which develops into imposing your views on others. As someone who has spent a bit of time in the Appalachians and knows a little about English and Irish folk music I can see how those traditions have fed into much of the music there and into Country Music more generally – that is something I can be proud of as a patriot – if I were a nationalist I would be telling them to get back to their roots and be less tolerant of their deviation from the true way.
Judy Collins is a fine singer – but I really like Joan Baez and Emmylou Harris and have soft spots for Pete Seeger and Tom Paxton in that tradition. I also once went to a Peter, Paul and Mary concert in the States – and was able to sing along with practically everything, especially Puff the Magic Dragon.
RD: you see I think the whole Wikileaks thing was quite important:
• Trafigura, an African oil company, caused widespread illness through a toxic gas dump, and then tried to suppress this being published in the Guardian through a secret “super-injunction”, in which the press cannot even report the existence of an injunction.
• US forces killed hundreds of innocent civilians at checkpoints in Iraq.
• More than 15,000 civilian deaths in Iraq that had previously been concealed by the U.S. government.
• A video showing a U.S. army helicopter slaughtering Reuters journalists and Iraqi children in cold blood.
and so much more; much of it nothing to do with the US
http://www.salon.com/2010/12/24/wikileaks_23/
So I find you calling it a ‘St Julian’ thing really odd, but not as odd as the fact that the publisher – publisher, note – of this information, has been made into the story every where else.
And that apparently the fact that a party trying to represent the people failing is a source of amusement.
Personally, I think someone who takes the RT shilling can of course be a decent reporter; just as some people who work for the Mail occasionally are decent reporters. Do you disagree?
Ben – yes, fair
An example:
A boss asks his or her secretary to produce a letter to a company setting out terms for a contract. The letter states the terms but is inaccurately produced. The letter states the terms vary by 10% from what was intended and causes the company 10% more than anticipated.
Similar issue, but the variance is 100% difference.
In either situation the cause of the error may be identical but the impact vastly different. As the boss do you take precisely the same action or try to assign different penalty for identical action.
I really would like to hear others’ perspective on it. I would like to think I would treat the two as identical issues in terms of original intention or error. But if you extrapolate this to international issues and potential effect then do the principles still adhere?
re Stormfront and the mystery post
“[Mod: I’ve not visited that link, but have converted it from a clickable link to a text one – imo S/F should not get any SEO assistance from this site]”
__________________
Which of course makes it just a little bit more likely that the casual reader won’t bother to check out the strange post identified by Resident Dissident…..
Is this part of the protection….?
I’m rather surprised that you’re being so laid back about this…
@Habbabkuk You evidently failed to understand that the premise of your argument on sporadic language numbers was flawed from the start. Your historical and cultural ignorance on specific countries can’t all be your fault but your ‘unpleasantness’ in this case comes down to the fact that you were happy to condone deliberate and ugly discrimination against the cultural and linguistic rights of one country whilst defending the rights of another.
Regarding this sentence by you to Komodo:
“Funnily enough, the only bit of Chris Jones’ very long post which you quoted in your foolish attack on me at 08h18 this morning was the paragraph in which Chris Jones mentioned Israel (negatively, of course)”
This was my paragraph you refer to, which was in reply to your double standards in defending the teaching of Hebrew whilst happily condoning discrimination against teaching Welsh to Welsh kids:
“So Hebrew children, or any other children, shouldn’t be derided for being taught their own language in their own country but Welsh children and newcomers to Wales being taught the language and culture of their own country in their own country for some reason should? Habbabkuk actively promotes discrimination against others whilst attacking those who defend such discrimination – Anti defamation League cultural racism at its most stupefying”
I would be more than happy to know where exactly I mentioned Israel negatively. Can you kindly elaborate?
“Puff the Magic Dragon” I get your drift 🙂
I will see if I can get something on the Lion/Unicorn. Thanks, dude.
Jon
I can perfectly accept what you did to the link – and I did make the point about the disgusting contents to be found at that forum. You should perhaps note that there is a link back to this site from S/F.
I would still like Mary to answer the original question – if only to protect herself if she is not the poster.
Habakkuk. Happy to engage. Send me your email. Ref your last sentence: thank you.
Jon: apologies for being off topic.
Glen UK – I have tried to elaborate. Thanks for engaging already thoughtfully – appreciated.
Chris Jones
Tip: At the end of a hard day/week/ whatever you don’t have to smell your underpants, you just throw them in the laundry basket. You do not have to read/engage/ whatever with anti-truth trolls. Just ignore.
“Ben – yes, fair”
James; I feel there is a more precise example you are seeking answers to but I’ll have a go;
” How do you distinguish between responsibility between an accidental error and one which is deliberately made?”
Accident; less culpability but still retaining some responsibility
Intentional; Intent is everything; greater sin.
Ben
The song is about losing the innocence of childhood (or so Peter says with a smile) – and sorry to spoil your illusions but unlike Clinton I really never did inhale – I’ve never wanted to try smoking anything since I tried by grandfathers (tobacco) pipe when I was eight.
Ben, just re-reading it: not sure it’s agreeing with me as much as it did in my 20’s, but then it’s easy to be a bit dazzled by Orwell when you’re young:
http://orwell.ru/library/essays/lion/english/e_eye
welcome your thoughts when we’ve had a chance to digest
Chris Jones: would also like to read the answer to your question.
” I’ve never wanted to try smoking anything since I tried by grandfathers (tobacco) pipe when I was eight.”
The perfect remedy for watchful parents, RD. You might know Frank Zappa, the classically trained rocker who was not an imbiber. He was asked about that and said ‘Yeah, I tried it once, and it made me sleepy”