The Respectability of Torture
St Mary’s University College, Thurs 1st August, 7.30pm
Craig Murray, former British ambassador to Uzbekistan, was a whistleblower who was removed from his ambassadorial post by Tony Blair for exposing the Tashkent regime‟s use of rape and systematic torture, including the boiling to death of political opponents. He has also spoken out against Central Asia‟s appalling dictatorships, regimes which are allies of the West, involved in torture and rendition, and was accused of threatening MI6‟s relationship with the CIA. Now a human rights activist, author and broadcaster, he outlines the dynamics of torture and the hypocrisy of incriminated Western governments.
My first public appearance for a while will be in Belfast on 1 August where I shall be giving a talk. Long term readers of this blog will recall that, while my focus is largely on international affairs, the domestic political achievements I most hope to see are a united Ireland and an independent Scotland.
what a curious little video. the last time I had someone telling me that i would go to hell, it was a born again Christian.
Intersting to see the life of the abusive comment to have stayed put for now more than one and one half of one hour!
For some reason, on this blog, there has been “accommodation” given to these parasitic ziofuckwit vermin that have settled in and using this blog as yet another platform to further their filthy, supremacist, segregationist, apartheid agenda. Further given the degrees of latitude and laxity in moderation offered to these parasitic vermin, begs the question what the fuck is going on here?
Not my experience in deepest Surrey Technicolour. A lot of prejudice is encountered. I even had a friend, a woman of my own age, applauding what Rudd is doing with the immigrants on Papua New Guinea. I had to remind her that Australian troops have been engaged in the coalitions in the ME wars causing mayhem and displacement of its peoples.
FJ: interesting, and how did she respond?
viz http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_contribution_to_the_2003_invasion_of_Iraq
http://www.defence.gov.au/op/afghanistan/index.htm
and even in Syria joining the rebels I see
http://world.time.com/2013/07/16/gday-damascus-australians-are-joining-syrias-rebels-in-surprising-numbers/
Not so long left now!
Assad delivered a speech the night before last I believe, during which he thanked the Syrian nation for helping him to get rid of the terrorists. Further, he indicated that shortly the war on terrorists will be over and the Syrian army will vanquish the terrorist, disappointing their sponsors.
The game is over, and the score is heavily in favour of the opponents of the US and toadies. As I have already indicated, there is unrest in Qatar, as well as unrest in Saudi, with the the Saudis forces opening fire on the population of al Awamia, in Qtif. The “kaleidoscope” has broken, hence the adventurers, brigands, and privateers are on the back foot.
With some wiki links?
Technicolour. She didn’t want to know nor could she defend her view which left me thinking there’s goodbye to a friendship.
Technicolour: Yes indeed, same here! Who are we to believe, when all sides trot out the same line of hysterical, dark-ages mumbo-jumbo, with the threat that the all-loving god will throw you into hell for eternity should you fail to embrace their particular version of it?
Heard an interesting interview with a former Utah-based Christian who finally saw the light. He was a skilled organist, and was invited to play at many churches of all sorts of denominations (Xian, Mormon etc. etc.). Between playing, he had to listen to the sermons. Over time, he came to realise that all these religions, and all the subdivisions thereof, basically said the same thing – theirs was the One True Way, you’d better do what they say, or you’ll be condemned to hell for all eternity.
Of course, they varied in how forcefully they played this message, but all said more or less the same. They couldn’t all be right, he realised. So why should his own brand be any more correct that the rest? He rightly concluded that none of them were correct, it was all BS, and become much happier as a result of his new-found enlightenment.
Fedup poses an age-old conundrum, “…what the fuck is going on here?”
I have to admit to wondering the same on a daily basis. Here’s an example of someone struggling with very much the same sort of question.
FJ: Ouch.
This is an awful and powerful short video about the detention process in Australia:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wq0KSJWT2F8
This is also worth watching:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bcz4xh5qwVU
Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)
2 Aug, 2013 – 9:57 am
“re spot checks for illegal immigrants”
“Just a few comments:” [Questions I think]
“1/. Can I assume that posters here agree that illegal immigration … is not a welcome phenomenon?”
Well it is illegal to be here illegally Habbabkuk so I’ll grant you that.
2/. Can I assume that posters agree that the govt is entitled to do everything possible to combat the phenomenon and that this should include measures and actions to identify persons who have somehow gained entry?
Only if the “everything possible” is legal.
I suggest that, the actions of both the police and the border agents, is illegal and shows contempt for the law by the Home Office.
Stop and question: police powers
A police officer has powers to stop you at any time and ask you:
• what you’re doing
• why you’re in an area and/or where you’re going
However, you don’t have to answer any questions the police officer asks you.
https://www.gov.uk/police-powers-to-stop-and-search-your-rights
“3/. Can I assume that actions and measures undertaken by the public authorities charged with upholding the law should, to the extent possible, be efficient…”
Yes.
…and that this will inevitably involve, where appropriate, a measure of targeting?”
Only if it’s legal and proportionate.
“4/. Do posters here agree with a couple of the comments reported above : for example, that these operations are akin to life in “Nazi Germany”…”
That may be a bit over the top but it is a worrying development towards a police state.
“…or that being asked to identify oneself constitutes an erosion of individual liberties and freedoms…”
Yes it clearly does erode our liberties. The police do not have the right to demand identification unless they suspect that someone is committing an offence or they believe they have committed an offence.
“…given that identification is required in most other areas of modern life in a complex state (driving licences, state benefits, bank accounts, taking up employment..etc)?”
That is a complete red herring Habbabkuk.
“5/. Do posters consider that action against illegal economic immigration is an electioneering ploy…”
Of course it is and it doesn’t matter which political party is in government. It’s called “playing the race card”.
“…if so, (1) does it matter (given that the matter is apparently one of some public concern…”
Why, I wonder is it a matter of public concern? Would it be the anti-immigrant propaganda by the government aided by the right-wing MSM:
The Daily Mail: Propagating misinformation about immigrants.
Again.
On Monday 14 Feb, the front page of the Daily Mail pronounced: ‘Thousands of illegal workers claiming benefits: Loophole in the law costs taxpayers millions’. But by Thursday it became clear that this wasn´t a real expose of ‘welfare abuse’ rather another cynical attempt to propagate misinformation about immigrants.
http://www.migrantsrights.org.uk/blog/2011/02/daily-mail-propagating-misinformation-about-immigrants
“…and (2) in which way it is more of an electioneering ploy than general economic policy, the NHS, public services in general…etc (also, apparently – and legitimately – matters of public concern?”
Electioneering ploys are by nature lies whether it be on the NHS or Trident or immigration. However there is deep seated racism among many white Brits and it is an emotive subject (like sectarianism) that can be manipulated by the state to divide and rule.
“6/. Finally, on a more practical level, what other measures would posters like to see the govt undertake in replacement of the measures being criticised, in order to counter illegal economic immigration wrt to illegal immigrants already inside the UK?”
Prevention is better than cure is it not. But job cuts to Customs, Coast Guards and the Border Agency have led to an increase in smuggling, whether of drugs or people. The gates have been left unattended to save money.
There is little point in chasing after illegal immigrants inside the UK if the gates remain unattended.
I would also argue that the majority of illegal immigrants, if they are working, will be working for far less than the minimum wage and thus are not “taking our jobs” those jobs would not exist without them.
If properly funded systems were in place illegal immigrants would not be able to fraudulently gain welfare benefits or housing. Such systems that do exist are scandalously under-funded.
Job cuts and inadequate funding have consequences.
Anyway Habbabkuk that’s my view what’s yours?
Remember the USS Liberty.
http://rense.com/general39/pilot.htm
The Minister for Immigration Mark Harper was on Ch4 News. He is very pleased with the results of the Home Office anti illegal immigrant initiatives and is obviously well recovered from the fracture he sustained to his foot after falling off a table while dancing in a Soho nightspot at the end of June! Loads of fun with Mark?
Wonder if he is planning any more trips to Israel courtesy of CFoI?
17 July 2007 – View full entry
6. Overseas visits
11-15 June 2006, to Israel, hosted by Conservative Friends of Israel (CFI). CFI contributed the cost of flights, accommodation and some meals. The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Official Guests Department) contributed to the costs of travel inside Israel, some accommodation and meals. (Registered 5 July 2006)
He does not mind visitors from Israel coming to this country, even if they are war criminals.
Oral Answers to Questions — Foreign and Commonwealth Office: Topical Questions (19 January 2010) has video
Mark Harper: I listened carefully to the Foreign Secretary’s answer to the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs. Ellman). He agreed, I think, that leaders of Israel should be able to come to the United Kingdom without fear of arrest. What I did not hear in his answer was the steps that the British Government will take to ensure that that can happen……
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/mark_harper/forest_of_dean
http://www.channel4.com/news/immigration-police-checks-arrests-government-home-office
~~~
Ch4 News also included an item about Lynton Crosby’s anti-immigrant policy he devised for Howard which brought him to power.
Craig was interviewed on Radio Ulster’s Good Morning Ulster yesterday morning. 1hr 11mins in
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b037l8p5
Glenn_uk
Re your Muslim protest video
Those Muslims weren’t extremists, they were orthodox. I find it amusing to see people label others as “extremist” when they don’t like the message. Apparently, if you are faithful to a 1500 year old religion, then you are extreme.
The white English girl, while genuine in her concern about the cultural transformation of her community, was quite naive, presumptuous and a little condescending in her attitude towards the protesters. Who knows Islam better than a Muslim? A part-time Christian or feel-good agnostic?The people who spoke to her struck me as honest and plain speaking.
You will need to get used to the changing face of British culture because there’s a whole lot more to come – all in good time. But if you don’t like orthodox Muslims, maybe you can show them the errors of their ways by telling them what Islam is actually all about.
“while genuine in her concern about the cultural transformation of her community” – did you see a ‘cultural transformation’? did anyone? is Oxford St ‘culturally transformed’ when an equally small group of Hari Krishnas dance down it? The pillars of our society – Boots, MacDonalds – surely still remain.
“Those Muslims weren’t extremists, they were orthodox” – well, telling people they will rot in hell is quite extreme, in my experience of people. Also, not Koranic teaching for ‘people of the Book’
“You will need to get used to the changing face of British culture because there’s a whole lot more to come – all in good time” – ahah. A seer on board.
For my plodding friend, Technicolour.
Cultural transformation is an ongoing process, or do you think that the UK has remained the same for the last 50 years?
And extreme slogans don’t quite make an extremist, does it now? What do you suggest protesters to chant at a protest? Then again, maybe it takes one to know one.
As for “Koranic teaching”, I guess we should feel blessed to have your academic knowledge of Islam at hand over the preaching of Muslim clerics themselves. What was your major again? Theology?
A seer on board? Is that supposed to be a clever putdown of a rational prediction?
How many close personal friends of yours are Muslim? I mean, you claim to be tolerant and accepting, and that Muslims are good people just like everyone else, so you must have a whole bunch of Muslim friends who connect with you in a deep and meaningful way, right?
Benghazi was fishy and CIA people are being gagged for something not to come out. Large weapopns consignment being shifted from Libya to Syria, maybe?
Normal western processes excused by our diplomatic corp and foreign office as ‘necessary’.
Nothing to see here, walk on.
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/cia-pressured-quiet-benghazi/2013/08/02/id/518451?s=al&promo_code=1465A-1
Jemand, if you’d read any of the dialogue between Suhayl and Arsalan to which you contributed, and followed some of the links, you would perhaps have a clearer idea of the breadth of Islamic thought?
“Cultural transformation is an ongoing process, or do you think that the UK has remained the same for the last 50 years?”
Where has remained the same? But, in this context, the film has not shown that Islam has ‘transformed’ (extreme word) the whole of Luton, or even that particular street in Luton. You are nevertheless suggesting that Muslims, who form under 5 percent of the population, a figure which includes babies and grandmothers and children and great-uncles and boy clubbers and girls in jeggings, are going to ‘transform’ the whole of the UK?
Well, that would be nice. I’d like us all to calm down, look after our children, and go dancing more.
Not content with just Lynton Crosby, the Con Dems now hire Obama’s election
campaign manager. They must be getting the wind up.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23551323
AlcAnon – the world-wide caution announced by the US State Department is fitting and timely. Today is the last Friday in the holy month before Eid.
Tomorrow we will witness extreme violence in Egypt and while our eyes are turned in that direction a devastating attack on locations in Damascus by Israeli cruise missiles will be followed by Israel controlled takfiri groups moving through Qatana approaching Daraya from the South West.
@ Mr Scorgie
Thank you for engaging. Hereafter my responses to your comments. For easy of reading, I’ll put them in upper case.
_______________
“1/. Can I assume that posters here agree that illegal immigration … is not a welcome phenomenon?”
Well it is illegal to be here illegally Habbabkuk so I’ll grant you that.
AS YOU OBVIOUSLY ATTACH GREAT IMPORTANCE TO LEGALITY (AS EVIDENCED BY SOME OF YOUR LATER COMMENTS)I SHALL TAKE YOUR ANSWER AS A “YES” – ie, YOU AGREE THAT ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION IS NOT TO BE WELCOMED.
2/. Can I assume that posters agree that the govt is entitled to do everything possible to combat the phenomenon and that this should include measures and actions to identify persons who have somehow gained entry?
Only if the “everything possible” is legal.
I suggest that, the actions of both the police and the border agents, is illegal and shows contempt for the law by the Home Office.
YOU ARE WRONG;UNDER CURRENT LEGISLATION, OFFICIALS OF THE BORDER AGENCY HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO WHAT THEY WERE DOING AT KENSAL GREEN
Stop and question: police powers
A police officer has powers to stop you at any time and ask you:
• what you’re doing
• why you’re in an area and/or where you’re going
However, you don’t have to answer any questions the police officer asks you.
https://www.gov.uk/police-powers-to-stop-and-search-your-rights
THAT IS CORRECT. BUT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT OFFICIALS OF THE BORDER AGENCY HERE. SEE ALSO COMMENTS ABOVE AND BELOW.
“3/. Can I assume that actions and measures undertaken by the public authorities charged with upholding the law should, to the extent possible, be efficient…”
Yes.
…and that this will inevitably involve, where appropriate, a measure of targeting?”
Only if it’s legal and proportionate.
IT WAS LEGAL AND I BELIEVE IT WAS PROPORTIONATE : FIRSTLY, THERE IS A GREATER CHANCE THAT YOU WILL FIND ILLEGAL ECONOMIC IMMIGRANTS IN AREAS LIKE KENSAL GREEN THAN, FOR EXAMPLE,IN THE LEAFY SPACES OF SURREY WHERE FLAMING JUNE LIVES (if you need an explanation for that, ask and I shall respond); SECONDLY, ILLEGAL ECONOMIC IMMIGRANTS ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE DARK-SKINNED THAN WHITE – BECAUSE THEY ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE FROM CERTAIN COUNTRIES THAN FROM OTHERS (there would be little point in stopping Flaming June, for example).
“4/. Do posters here agree with a couple of the comments reported above : for example, that these operations are akin to life in “Nazi Germany”…”
That may be a bit over the top but it is a worrying development towards a police state.
SO WE AGREE ON THE OVER-THE-TOP BIT, ALTHOUGH I’M NOT SURE WHY YOU SAY “MAY BE” RATHER THAN “IS”. CONVERSELY, YOU COULD USE “MAY BE” IN THE SECOND PART OF THE SENTENCE RATHER THAN “IS”.
ANYWAY, I DO NOT BELIEVE IT IS ANY MORE A WORRYING STEP TOWARDS A POLICE STATE THAN ANY OTHER ACTION BY THE PUBLIC AUTHORITIES DESIGNED TO UPHOLD AND ENFORCE THE LAW OF THE LAND.
“…or that being asked to identify oneself constitutes an erosion of individual liberties and freedoms…”
Yes it clearly does erode our liberties. The police do not have the right to demand identification unless they suspect that someone is committing an offence or they believe they have committed an offence.
I AGAIN REPEAT THAT THE OFFICIALS OF THE BORDER AGENCY WERE ACTING WITHIN THEIR POWERS, SO THERE IS NO POINT IN YOU TALKING ABOUT THE POLICE THE WHOLE TIME. SECONDLY, EVEN IF IT HAD BEEN THE POLICE, THEY WOULD HAVE ACTED ON THE BELIEF THAT THE PERSONS ASKED TO IDENTIFY THEMSELVES HAD COMMITTED AN OFFENCE, NAMELY THAT OF BEING IN THE COUNTRY ILLEGALLY.
“…given that identification is required in most other areas of modern life in a complex state (driving licences, state benefits, bank accounts, taking up employment..etc)?”
That is a complete red herring Habbabkuk.
NO, I DON’T BELIEVE IT IS. CERTAIN FACILITIES AVAILABLE TO THE PUBLIC REQUIRE IDENTIFICATION. BEING IN THE UK IF YOU ARE A NON-EU FOREIGN NATIONAL IS ALSO A FACILITY AND IT SEEMS DIFFICULT TO ARGUE THAT THE AUTHORITIES ARE NOT ALLOWED TO ASCERTAIN IF YOU ARE AVAILING YOURSELF OF THAT FACILITY IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE LAW.
“5/. Do posters consider that action against illegal economic immigration is an electioneering ploy…”
Of course it is and it doesn’t matter which political party is in government. It’s called “playing the race card”.
I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT IT IS PLAYING THE RACE CARD. AT MOST IT IS PLAYING THE ANTI-ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION CARD.
“…if so, (1) does it matter (given that the matter is apparently one of some public concern…”
Why, I wonder is it a matter of public concern? Would it be the anti-immigrant propaganda by the government aided by the right-wing MSM:
YES? I DO BELIEVE IT IS A MATTER OR PUBLIC CONCERN, ALTHOUGH IT IS CERTAINLY NOT THE TOP CONCERN. I DON’T THINK YOU CAN CLAIM IN THE SAME BREATH THAT IT IS NOT A MATTER OF PUBLIC CONCERN AND THAT THE GOVT IS USING IT AS A “CARD”.
The Daily Mail: Propagating misinformation about immigrants.
Again.
On Monday 14 Feb, the front page of the Daily Mail pronounced: ‘Thousands of illegal workers claiming benefits: Loophole in the law costs taxpayers millions’. But by Thursday it became clear that this wasn´t a real expose of ‘welfare abuse’ rather another cynical attempt to propagate misinformation about immigrants.
THIS EXAMPLE IS A TRUE RED HERRING FROM YOU. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IMPLEMETING THE LAW OF THE LAND AND NOT WHAT THE DAILY MAIL – WHICH DOES NOT SPEAK FOR THE GOVT – IS SAYING.
http://www.migrantsrights.org.uk/blog/2011/02/daily-mail-propagating-misinformation-about-immigrants
“…and (2) in which way it is more of an electioneering ploy than general economic policy, the NHS, public services in general…etc (also, apparently – and legitimately – matters of public concern?”
Electioneering ploys are by nature lies whether it be on the NHS or Trident or immigration. However there is deep seated racism among many white Brits and it is an emotive subject (like sectarianism) that can be manipulated by the state to divide and rule.
I DON’T THINK YOU HAVE ANSWERED MY QUESTION. FURTHERMORE, WHO IS TRYING TO DIVIDE WHOM FROM WHOM AND TO WHAT PURPOSE – PLEASE EXPLAIN MORE CONCRETELY (AND IN ELECTORAL TERMS).
“6/. Finally, on a more practical level, what other measures would posters like to see the govt undertake in replacement of the measures being criticised, in order to counter illegal economic immigration wrt to illegal immigrants already inside the UK?”
Prevention is better than cure is it not. But job cuts to Customs, Coast Guards and the Border Agency have led to an increase in smuggling, whether of drugs or people. The gates have been left unattended to save money.
NO, I DON’T BELIEVE THAT THIS IS TRUE. ILLEGAL ECONOMIC IMMIGRANTS – AND THE PEOPLE WHO MAKE MONEY OUT OF GETTING INTO THE COUNTRY – ARE PRETTY DETERMINED AND CUNNING PEOPLE AND NO BORDER CONTROLS ARE 100% EFFECTIVE (UNFORTUNATELY)
There is little point in chasing after illegal immigrants inside the UK if the gates remain unattended.
TH SAY THAT THE GATES ARE LEFT UNATTENDED IS A GROSS MISREPRESENTATION AND IT IS IN ANY EVENT SILLY TO TAKE A POSITION WHICH SAYS THAT IF SOMEONE GETS PAST BORDER CONTROL SUCCESSFULLY HE SHOULD BE LEFT IN PEACE THEREAFTER. THIS IS A SERIOUS MATTER AND NOT A GAME OF MONOPOLY (“PASS GO AND COLLECT YOUR £200”)
I would also argue that the majority of illegal immigrants, if they are working, will be working for far less than the minimum wage and thus are not “taking our jobs” those jobs would not exist without them.
IRRELEVANT FOR OUR DISCUSSION HERE (YOU YOURSELF SAY “ALSO”). AND EVEN IF IT WAS NOT, WHAT YOU WOULD BE SAYING IS THAT ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION IS OK BECAUSE THESE PEOPLE ARE WORKING FOR LESS THAN THE MINIMUM WAGE.
If properly funded systems were in place illegal immigrants would not be able to fraudulently gain welfare benefits or housing. Such systems that do exist are scandalously under-funded.
AGAIN, IRRELEVANT FOR OUR DISCUSSION; I DON’T BELIEVE I SAID ANYTHING ABOUT WELFARE FRAUD DID I? YOU MIGHT BE CONFUSING ME WITH THE DAILY MAIL.
Job cuts and inadequate funding have consequences.
Anyway Habbabkuk that’s my view what’s yours?
THERE YOU GO, MR SCORGIE, BONNE LECTURE ( I’M ASSUMING YOU WROTE AS THE SPOKESPERSON FOR OTHERS AND THAT THEREFORE NOBODY ELSE WILL STICK THEIR HEAD ABOVE THE PARAPET)
Mark; The US travel alert ostensibly is an unspecified threat, but the likely spot is Yemen.fwiu.
Is your reference speculation on yesterday’s huge explosion in Homs?
All that shouting is giving me a headache.
@ Ben
Don’t be silly. I gave the reason why I would use upper case – it’s so that even ignoramuses like you could easily pick out my replies to Mr Scorgie’s replies to my original comments
Have another smoke and your headache will disappear.
“As a dog returneth to his vomit ” (Proverbs 26:11)….
…so the Frequent Poster, oblivious to what everyone else is writing about, returns to her favorite obsession at 19h42.
Yup, it’s Israel time again in leafy Surrey!
[Mod/Jon: abusive attack on Habbabkuk, deleted]
Not on, Fedup. Appalling, in fact. You are sounding strangely like a crazed far-right person – do you know that? You do know that this is just typing.
Habbakuk: before you mention Israel again, it might be good for educational purposes (after all, are we not here to have our view extended?) have you watched To Shoot An Elephant yet?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXHB2dnd42Q
[Mod/Jon: abusive, deleted]