The Respectability of Torture
St Mary’s University College, Thurs 1st August, 7.30pm
Craig Murray, former British ambassador to Uzbekistan, was a whistleblower who was removed from his ambassadorial post by Tony Blair for exposing the Tashkent regime‟s use of rape and systematic torture, including the boiling to death of political opponents. He has also spoken out against Central Asia‟s appalling dictatorships, regimes which are allies of the West, involved in torture and rendition, and was accused of threatening MI6‟s relationship with the CIA. Now a human rights activist, author and broadcaster, he outlines the dynamics of torture and the hypocrisy of incriminated Western governments.
My first public appearance for a while will be in Belfast on 1 August where I shall be giving a talk. Long term readers of this blog will recall that, while my focus is largely on international affairs, the domestic political achievements I most hope to see are a united Ireland and an independent Scotland.
Having praised the Guardian last week, it’s a shame to see it parrot the official line on Syria this morning. All the mainstream media, and of course the politicians, are clearly damning the UN inspections before they even take place. Shades of Iraq all are over this.
What the media forget to tell us is the fact that this district of Damascus is rebel-held, so it isn’t up to the regime to grant access!
Gassing civilians is the one act that guarantees Assad losing his (overwhelming) domestic support (according to NATO’s own survey) while inviting overt (please note the word) intervention. It simply doesn’t make any sense for the regime to do this, especially as it is wiping the floor with the rebels, militarily. Why gas women and children, rather than armed combatants? The regime isn’t that evil or inept.
This is a false flag act. Given the atrocities al Nusra has committed in the past, killing civilians to bring in the big guns won’t cause them any sleepless nights.
John Goss
Many thanks for your answer. I am glad that you are able to see blatant racism on all sides – I should also add that there has also been blatant racism in Arab countries towards the Jews, with the result that a very large proportion of the population of Israel moved there to escape persecution – and Baghdad now has a Jewish population of seven when it used to have the secondest largest Jewish population in the world. And of course most of the rest of the Jewish population of Isreal can trace their current position to the European anti-semitism.
So perhaps in future when people look at the Israeli/palestine conflict they perhaps might just grasp that both sides of the argument, with justification, see themselves as victims of racism. If there would be some acknowledgement of that – then it might at least do something to deal with the current impasse.
@Res Diss. 9 31am
”Baghdad now has a Jewish population of seven when it used to have the secondest largest Jewish population in the world.”
Now why would they all have fled?
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Articles/General/Story2697.html
Isn’t that just the biggestest hole you could dig for yourself this fine morning. LOL!
Sofia
So it can all be put down to Mossad provocations?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries
Next stop holocaust denial.
If you cannot see that both sides of the Arab Israeli argument are both injured parties – and that neither party will ever be able to win the argument by demonstrating that they are the sole injured party then I’m afraid that you are just another grain of sand that will perpetuate the conflict
RD: I am sure that this is part of it, but the more you look into it, the more it seems that Israelis are, as so many people around the world are, victims of their own government, which does not reflect the desires of the peaceful majority. But then we also know that ‘war’ keeps the hardliners in power. This from 2008:
Sixty-four percent of Israelis say the government must hold direct talks with the Hamas government in Gaza toward a cease-fire and the release of captive soldier Gilad Shalit. Less than one-third (28 percent) still opposes such talks.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/poll-most-israelis-back-direct-talks-with-hamas-on-shalit-1.240188
FJ: I will be very cross indeed if you leave! In fact, it is insupportable. This particular thread has gone of for so long and things have got skewed as a result. I was wondering, in fact, if comments should not be closed after a time, as they do on the Guardian. It would keep people focussed (and saner).
So I assume you’ll be back next time Craig posts and in solidarity, I’m going to (try and) stay clear too until then.
well said Mike, and Brian F. further up, it is so obvious that those who are screaming for intervention are desperate to cover up their rebel atrocities.
All the dancing of the UN team, ‘oh why don’t you look here first’ ‘oh, no, thats is not that important, come and look at this quarter’ blah blah is all designed to create confusion and inaction.
meanwhile the organisers and arms dealers in MI6, those who can access arms in hours, if not days and deliver them with a purpose, are fawning round Saudi and Quatari princes for more of the same.
How much of the 0.6% recovery figures is down to the arms trade?
Thanks for the link to Prof. Nutt’s posing question it is obvious that the 100 hrs./week working practises combined with excess alcohol and cocaine use in the City has its effect.
It is bankers who are pushing juniors to do their work and at any time, that’s the problem. These bankers feel as if they have to because others are doing it.
Thanks for the great links, all.
Oh well looks that the low grade censorship/spying might have already started – since yesterday when visiting this site I have had the following cerficate error message
“The security certificate presented by this website has error. This problem might indicate an attempt to fool you or intercept ny data you send to the server.”
Have others experienced the same problem?
Fortunately my view of those who favour censorship is that it is they who are committing the crime not those who dissent.
[Mod/Jon: the certificate is not valid, so just access via ordinary HTTP, or check certificate checksums every time you visit – not necessary imo]
Mary,
Do not let the buggers grind you down. You’ve been ill, so this is not a good time. I have been following this blog for a long time and have found the links provided from your research over the last few years to be of great value. I think this blog is an important forum and you a major contributor.
The buggers that have ground you down remind me very much of the Megaphone crowd that assaulted commenters on any criticism of Israel or of the official 9/ll story. I call them ‘status-quoers’, because I see their aim as preserving the status quo as long as it continues to work in favour of Israel’s long-term land and power grab.
Please give it some time and re-think.
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good [wo]men do nothing”
@Res Diss. 10 21am
”Next stop holocaust denial.
Groan!
Who was it found Mossad had nothing to do with it?
Oh look! It was Mossad. (motto: “By way of deception, thou shalt do war”)
Bloody Grownups!
Nevermind and others
How do you explain why the rebels were happy to allow UN inspectors in from Day 1 while the Syrian government granted their permission only on Day 5?
Technicolour
“Sixty-four percent of Israelis say the government must hold direct talks with the Hamas government in Gaza toward a cease-fire and the release of captive soldier Gilad Shalit. Less than one-third (28 percent) still opposes such talks.”
This is of course very positive and emphasises my point that talking and listening to the liberal secular point of view in each country, including Israel, is the way forward. If you look at the deeper opinion poll surveys within Isreal for many years – it is noteworthy that this consistent underlying strand of though has always been there. Similarly, if you look at some of the original Zionists (not the Begin/Irgun lot) you will see that there original concept of Israel was for a secular state.
If the Hyperpower thinks investigating the latest chem weapon incident is “too late to be credible”, why did they agree to the UN inpsections of the much earlier incidents?
Maybe someone can explain.
“Who was it found Mossad had nothing to do with it?”
Not me – look at the Wikipedia article – it talks about both push and pull factors. I am quite capable to go with the fact that in conflicts both sides do bad things.
@Flaming June
Your one woman news service was what first drew me into the comments here. I hope you will maybe take a break rather than go.
I applaud Jon’s patience. All the reprobate bleating and whining, the childlike idnignation of hypocrits, it must get on your tits. Thankfully I can, and do, mostly skip troll comments.
@FJ
If you do move your one woman news service elsewhere please let us know where.
Resident Dissident 26 Aug, 2013 – 10:35 am
“The security certificate presented by this website has error. This problem might indicate an attempt to fool you or intercept ny data you send to the server.”
I am no expert and maybe someone more technical will chimne in but that msg sounds like a self signed ssl warning (when someone sets up “https” access to their web site without paying a fortune forit). Quite why Craig has a self signed ssl I don’t know but I have just tried it and he does. Maybe you are prefixing the web address with “https” rather than “http”.
This link does not use “https” and so should not show the warning: http://www.craigmurray.org.uk
This link does use “https” and so should show the warning: https://www.craigmurray.org.uk
Use the non-https link and you won’t see the message.
@Res Diss. 9 50am
”…a 1960 inquiry by the Mossad have found no Jewish involvement in the bombings.”
Yes. Beleive it or not it really was Mossad who found no Mossad involvement. Fancy that!
Plenty of other Israeli researchers found just the opposite. Self-hating Jews perhaps? No, not really. you can check it out at,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1950%E2%80%931951_Baghdad_bombings#Alleged_Israeli_involvement
Bear in mind, this is there despite 24 / 7 hasbara reworking of Israel related wikipedia pages.
Must get myself outside to dig some spuds, give my smoking keyboard a chance to cool down and give others some space here.
Happy Days All! See ya tonight.
Quite some years ago a memo was sent to certain individuals at a certain city institution. It asked that if they must engage in nasal ingestion of cocaine they should do so in the toilets and not at their desks!
@Res Diss.
re mylast post at 116am
The first line quote in italics is from Wikipedia. It looks like I was quoting you. Apologies for sowing confusion.
It was in response to your ”“Who was it found Mossad had nothing to do with it? Not me…? post.
FJ, I second and third all calls for you to stay 🙂
For what it’s worth, RD can be spiky, but (in my humble view) he/she is generally willing to find common ground as well as put forward awkward questions. The broad policy of this board to welcome all views does make it harder to strike a right balance, as does a lack of firm guidelines from our host on how to deal with persistent harassment.
That all said, we still have had some interesting exchanges on this thread recently, including substantial (and excellent) contributions from Arbed, still keeping the AA thread alive. Thanks Arbed!
PS. I am generally in favour of people answering questions, except of course from posters setting out to cause trouble. Ideally, people should just skip over contributions from such individuals, but the temptation to respond in kind – perhaps with some unpleasantness – is understandable. Would it help if, on a per-user basis, readers could set an ignore list? It would not require real email addresses or the need to log in.
There would always be the temptation to turn it off to see what troublemakers are up to, and if everyone did that it would be a waste of implementation time, since people would probably retaliate anyway. But it might be an interesting solution to the problem, whilst continuing Craig’s policy of (mostly) free speech.
Phil, self-signed certs are often set up by hosting firms, as is the case here I think. Hopefully we’ll move to a new server at some point, and maybe we’ll get a real cert then.
Here’s a warmonger you might recognise, if not the rewritten history of his achievements. Sick bags available on flight Pan Am 103 which got no further than Lockerbie. Read and enjoy. The humour is as good as Only Fools and Horses.
http://www.arabianbusiness.com/tony-blair-appear-at-arabian-business-awards-515084.html
Phil
Thanks
yes changing https to http seems to fix it – oh well another conspirancy theory disproved. Not quite sure why https is waht is saved in my search history – I certainly do (over)pay my ISP provider.
Many yaers ago I briefly shared a house with a cocaine dealer. Most of his customers were in the entertainment industries but he also had city boys. I got (sort of) friendly with one city boy without ever asking what he actually did. One day he broke down. He cried. He hated himself. He doesn’t sleep well. He lets it out that his job was to argue down african crop failures so the insurance wasn’t paid out.
I guess he started the cocaine for very different reasons that he ended up abusing it. I told him to piss off and have never touched cocaine since. Nor befriended a city boy since.
If the financial crisis was fuelled by cocaine then maybe the cocaine helps bury the guilt.
Sofia
Despite what you and others may think I carry no torch for Mossad or any other security service – they are ALL capable of bad things and should be treated with skepticism – that doesn’t mean that they have a monoploy on bad behaviour however.
Jon
“…and maybe we’ll get a real cert then.”
Why would you do that? Being a public site there is absolutely no need for transport level security (everything is publically visible so there is nothing to hide). Surely, It’ll cost money and add nothing except additional load. Or am I missing something?
Res Diss
You say:
“I agree that they (human rights) have decreased in overall terms in recent years although the longer term trend has been positive.”
Then I asked:
“Why do you think human rights have decreased in overall terms in recent years, and indeed why do you think that the longer term trend to which you refer is still in play.”
And, even though the observation is your own, you’re unable to answer that simple question about your own observation.
So far as I can make out you seem to be saying that it’s all horribly complicated, and yet I’m only asking about your own big picture observation. I’m simply asking about the trend.
What’s produced this reversal in human rights and civil liberties that you claim is only a blip, and why do you think it’s only a blip?
It’s a reasonable question.
Phil
“One day he broke down. He cried. He hated himself. He doesn’t sleep well. He lets it out that his job was to argue down african crop failures so the insurance wasn’t paid out.”
There’s a lot of that going on.
You only need to look at the big payouts going on at the BBC and the NHS, with attendant gagging clauses.
People are given large sums of taxpayer money for doing things they know in their hearts are wrong.
Big carrots for those who keep quiet. Big sticks for those who tell.
Very interesting discussion of how money corrupts politics.
They’re all in it together. Washington’s web of wonga:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article35968.htm
Thanks for that lovely anecdote of your yesteryears Phil, an insight on how long this must have been going on. looks like the City ought to ‘police itself’ ( and pay for it, off course) with random drug testing of anybody who works more than 60 hours/week, that should sufice.
Anybody found asleep at the desk will be sent home for a minimum of eight hours, those kind of rules should go some way of preventing these habits from continuing.
And my advice here comes for free, but I’m sure some bollox artist could talk those City boys into paying money for ol’ rope.
@ DR
How do you explain why the rebels were happy to allow UN inspectors in from Day 1 while the Syrian government granted their permission only on Day 5?
We are not talking about the same area here, the rebels wanted therm, to look somewhere other than the areas the UN wanted to look and the Assad regime has pointed to past facts and use of chemical weapons by rebels, was aware that the UN team, should they advance towards areas the rebels did not want them to see, would be fired upon by snipers.
It will be hard to verify use now, after some days, but past raided arsenals, use of chems. and loosing ground to Assad, not to speak desperation to get the west involved due to loosing ground, all adds up fare better.
mercenaries from 84 countries have not got much connection to any Syrian cause, nor have they compulsion towards the population in Syria. Do you think its easier for a desperate foreigner to shoot chems. at the Syrians, or a heavily armed and advancing Syrian soldier?
The Pals have pulled out of the peace process. I guess building more settlements, upgrading the status of existing ones, bombing Gaza and executing unarmed Palestinian refugees all in the last month wasn’t convincing them that Israel is serious about peice by peic… er, peace.