The Respectability of Torture
St Mary’s University College, Thurs 1st August, 7.30pm
Craig Murray, former British ambassador to Uzbekistan, was a whistleblower who was removed from his ambassadorial post by Tony Blair for exposing the Tashkent regime‟s use of rape and systematic torture, including the boiling to death of political opponents. He has also spoken out against Central Asia‟s appalling dictatorships, regimes which are allies of the West, involved in torture and rendition, and was accused of threatening MI6‟s relationship with the CIA. Now a human rights activist, author and broadcaster, he outlines the dynamics of torture and the hypocrisy of incriminated Western governments.
My first public appearance for a while will be in Belfast on 1 August where I shall be giving a talk. Long term readers of this blog will recall that, while my focus is largely on international affairs, the domestic political achievements I most hope to see are a united Ireland and an independent Scotland.
whilst that is a ‘predictable affair’ according to our foul breathed child eater, well, its own offspring if needs must.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komodo_dragon
But I can’t divulge, otherwise I will have to kill you….
Now to Manning.
Unlike William Caley of Charlie company, murdering women and children in My Lai, he was allowed to procriate after seven years and spread his genes, Bradley Manning has been said to face 126 years in prison, for publicising a massive war crime and some tell tale truth about diplomatic two facedness, big deal, the bulk of information was available to 4 million people and ‘over classified’.
Bradley Manning has served his country more than dragons serve theirs, allegedly, and he should be freed after having served three years in military confinement for showing up some pretty paranoid roid’s in charge of a helicopter, not to speak of Roid command, coming down hard on journo’s.
Fact is. This was a war crime and nobody is squaring up for it, except the messenger Bradley Manning. Non of these coward pilots have shit for brains or should be in charge of cloud 9 they seem to be sitting on.
‘And’ even despise it.
I’m off to bed. Still up because it was Pub Quiz night.
Nevermind. They are children who think they are men. They cannot separate war-games from reality. Some of them might never grow up. But the deaths they caused mean that others will never grow up. America is sick. It is the contents of a vomit bag. I have no adequate words to describe it. It needs to change drastically.
Sofia. is that the Correct Link ? it wont let me through
Habbabkuk,
So,after almost 10 months of patronising,stalkerly and twisted behaviour towards Mary you now have the gall to berate her for misinterpreting the one post that you have agreed with her!
You really are a nasty bit of work Habbabkuk.
You must need Brasso for that neck of yours.
Fred @ 11.27 pm.
Excellent post.
@Brian
@Brian.
Sorry you’re having trouble with the petition link.
Just checked. It works for me.
https://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/world-health-organisation-and-iraqi-ministry-of-health-act4iraq-and-release-birth-defect-data
If you still have trouble maybe someone with more computer know-how than me can help.
Ben wrote, “Heh; We use our microwave to sterilize the kitchen sponge.”
Hmm, not a bad idea. Incidentally, you can use your freezer to rid your pillow of bed-bugs, dust-mites and all kinds of pests. An hour or so in there a fortnight will do the job.
And may I second the notion – an old u-Wave oven is ideal for shielding your disks for offline/offsite storage protection.
“(I really wish I could be afforded five minutes alone with these two specimens, these fuckwits would soon understand the meaning of pain, and hopeless).”
Angry? Possibly.
Compassionate? Hardly.
What is it that makes some people feel that the proper response to sadistic cruelty is to propose more of it?
So far as Habba the troll’s comments on the Manning case are concerned please see Chris Floyd
http://www.chris-floyd.com/component/content/article/1-latest-news/2337-soft-machine-a-bright-ray-of-hope-for-bradley-manning.html
Which puts the notion that the US military was simply responding in a routine way to Manning’s actions, into some sort of perspective. At last we have a real American hero from the Iraq debacle. And, predictably, nobody wants anything to do with him.
For once, she was correct.
National archives: William Hague? He’d be embarrassing – when Margaret Thatcher vetoed the boy wonder
The annual release of secret papers from the National Archive reveals Mrs Thatcher’s scornful response to a plan to put the precocious young Tory in the Treasury
http://www.independent.co.uk/incoming/national-archives-william-hague-hed-be-embarrassing–when-margaret-thatcher-vetoed-the-boy-wonder-8740812.html
‘But Mrs Thatcher, who was also advised that Hague’s appointment was largely a fait accompli, responded furiously to the request, scrawling across the memo “No” and then underlining it three times.’
Craig wrote about Gulnara’s links to FC Barcelona.
‘Uzbekistan is perhaps the most brutal dictaotorship in the world, but Barcelona receive $10 million a year to promote the Karimov regime and the propaganda “Show club” owned by the President’s daughter.’
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2009/05/two_aspects_of/
I don’t know if those links still exist.
Anyway FC Barcelona are off to Israel on a ‘Peace Tour’ which sounds like some PR initiative.
http://forward.com/articles/181329/barcelona-soccer-team-heads-to-israel-to-run-clini/
Have they ever been to Uzbekistan?
~~
Latest on Gulnara
Uzbekistan: Karimova Plots Life After Diplomacy
http://www.eurasianet.org/node/67271
@John Goss
Yes, Scott wasn’t the only one, Kipling was at it too and the rest.
So what was it that actually made torture respectable? It was a TV program called 24. They are still at it and people are still falling for it.
Macky, 31 Jul, 6.39pm
“I also noticed a debate about the nature of compassion, which is obviously an
emotion that Jemand has never experienced, otherwise he/she would not have
written the nonsense that was posted, and despite Dreoilin attempts to explain this
most natural of human emotions, we can only conclude that unfortunately Jemand
is one of those emotionally impaired individuals who are simply incapable of
experiencing such basic human emotions.”
. . . .
A flaky comment from a flaky commentator.
There was no “debate” about the nature of compassion, just a discussion about the pretensions of people (in particular, lefties) who purport to feel it more than others and the superiority they think that it confers upon them. I also made the observation, in other words, that compassion is of little or no value if it is absent of action. It is only an emotion, after all, and not an expression of commitment or effort to perform a moral duty. For that, I am accused of being incompassionate, of never having experienced compassion. Well, beat me up Scotty!
And there was the usual misunderstanding that I often observe here, to no effect, that when one makes an unpopular observation, one is falsely accused of endorsing or embodying that thing that is observed – ie conflation of “is” with “ought”.
But I shouldn’t expect so much from a bunch of ordinary people with limited perception and intelligence who routinely masturbate on this blog, stroking their own egos and other’s who pander to their very primitive need for emotional validation. How very good Macky must feel about himself. I guess that’s what this blog is all about – feeling better about yourself by attacking others.
Enjoy!
‘“Pathetic and infantile responses from the Resident Invigilator…” sobs the Frequent Poster, who is too thick to see that I was agreeing with her.’
Not ‘sobbing’ and not ‘too thick’ to see that the RI’s version of ‘agreement’ was an excuse to turn it into a rant against public servants who unlike their masters, the politicians, often do difficult jobs for not great rates of pay. The RI would not make the grade as a social worker.
The child’s mother was obviously a plausible liar, describing the weight loss as an ‘eating disorder’ which was being treated. It sounds as if she was under the control of a psychopathic bully but I am not defending her. She could have left and taken the children with her. Daniel’s brother was also beaten.
‘Martin Daly and the late Margo Wilson, the two Deans of Modern Evolutionary Psychology, discovered, in their analysis of homicide data from Canada and Detroit, that stepchildren, those who live with a stepparent (usually, a stepfather), are anywhere from 40 to 100 times as likely to be murdered or maimed as those who live with two biological parents in the household.’
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/201101/why-are-stepparents-more-likely-kill-their-children
The natural father knew that the mother was a violent drunk who had threatened to stab him so why didn’t he intervene? Probably weak and a coward. He had the prime responsibility to protect the child he had fathered.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2354868/Daniel-Pelka-Sibling-boy-beaten-death-mother-partner-tells-jury-moment-found.html
I wish all government secrets would come out in the open. Every nation is as bad as each other, it’s how they go about their business and how well they hide. Torture does not necessarily have to be physical. Unfortunately some countries still have not developed more modern techniques.
Bradley Manning has served his country more than dragons serve theirs, allegedly
By about six months as far as I can work out, N. Three years of which time has been in jail, and I readily concede that three years in jail awaiting trial is not acceptable at all. I’m pretty certain it wouldn’t happen in the UK. Although Colchester wasn’t reckoned by its ex-inmates* to be a soft option in my time.
* not me, but I knew a couple…
@ Flaming June
“that the RI’s version of ‘agreement’ was an excuse to turn it into a rant against public servants who unlike their masters, the politicians, often do difficult jobs..”
_____________
I hardly think that three lines constitute a rant.
We agreed that various people (the school, the social workers) weren’t up to the job in this particular case.
And one has the impression that this holds in many areas of public life (including the geniuses of the banking world, lest someone should ask why I don’t mention them…). This high and seemingly generalized level of incompetence is why I incline to the cock-up interpretation of events rather than to the malevolent conspiracy interpretation which appears to find general favour on this blog.
Back to the former Labour govt : I believe it is fact that a good deal of the employment growth under New Labour was due to hirings in the public sector. And I think it is also a fact – indeed, some of you have posted in this sense – that greater numbers do not seem to have resulted in an appreciable improvement on service and outcomes. But what these hirings did do was to increase the number of people who might reasonably be expected to vote Labour at subsequent elections.
PS – for what it’s worth, I also happen to think that there are few if any crimes worse than the martyring of innocent, defenceless children as shown by the Daniel Pelka case.
@ Komodo :
Colchester – was that a reference to the (in)famous glasshouse?
Yeah, but what about his duty to expose war crimes. That’s a higher duty established at Nuremberg surely, or did the Nazis just creep back in and change the rules again.
Good point. Conceded. However, he is not being punished (at least ostensibly) for exposing the crimes. He is being punished for the formal offence of revealing secret military information. Trouble is, when you’re in the forces, they’ve got you by the balls. And military law is quite separate from the civilian variety.
It’s no accident that the entire German military apparatus had to be defeated before Nuremberg could happen…
H – Yes.
The US military is a guilty party.
They failed to mitigate the risks of war crimes and of information security threats, both technical and human.
They gave a person, who manifested emotional and behavioural problems, broad access to classified material that was easily copied to removable media and transported away from an ostensibly secured site.
And they failed to provide a protocol by which Manning could discharge a *legal* duty to respond to what appeared, prima facie, to be war crimes committed by the US military.
The US military also failed to adequately deal with those war crimes, making their efforts to prosecute Manning for exposing them grossly disproportionate when compared to their own malfeasance.
Basically, Manning had conflicting obligations and was provided with no formal means to properly discharge all of those duties.
The US military failed and Manning is a scape goat.
Re. Hague/Thatcher, in which:
… Cabinet Secretary Robin Butler…wrote: “Promising though William Hague is, it is a bit difficult to see what a 21-year-old will contribute as a special adviser in the Treasury.” The message was then conveyed back across Whitehall to Nigel Lawson in only slightly more diplomatic language. A note of a meeting between Mrs Thatcher and her Chancellor said: “The appointment of someone so young and with so little experience would be an embarrassment to the Government and would be resented by more experienced people in the Conservative Research Department.”
http://www.independent.co.uk/incoming/national-archives-william-hague-hed-be-embarrassing–when-margaret-thatcher-vetoed-a-treasury-job-for-the-boy-wonder-8740812.htm
Those were the days. Compare George Osborne’s meteoric progress-
After graduating in 1992, Osborne did a few part-time jobs including as a data entry clerk, typing the details of recently deceased into a NHS computer database.[13] He also briefly worked for a week at Selfridges, mainly re-folding towels.[13]
In 1993, Osborne originally intended to pursue a career in journalism. He was shortlisted for but failed to gain a place on The Times trainee scheme, and instead did freelance work on the Peterborough diary column of The Daily Telegraph. Some time later, an Oxford friend of his, journalist George Bridges, alerted Osborne to a research vacancy at Conservative Central Office.[13]
Osborne joined the Conservative Research Department in 1994 and became head of its Political Section. One of his first roles was to go to Blackpool and observe the October 1994 Labour Conference.[14]
Between 1995 and 1997 he worked as special adviser to the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food Douglas Hogg (during the BSE crisis)
Just like that: Head of the CRO’s Political Section. And next year, a spad. Bet Fourteen Pints wishes he’d done a week folding towels…
Komodo, you scaly-backed lizard, I can’t take this. Agree you were talking about the military when you said: “Three years of which time has been in jail, and I readily concede that three years in jail awaiting trial is not acceptable at all. I’m pretty certain it wouldn’t happen in the UK.”
Babar Ahmad (8 years in UK prison without charge) and Talha Ahsan (6 years in UK prison without charge) are both now in Supermax torture chambers in the US and still haven’t gone to trial. The Yanks are supposed to have evidence of their crimes but their trials have been put off for another six months (now March 2014) and they will probably put them off further unless these obviously innocent prisoners plea bargain. The Yanks are disgusting. Theresa May is disgusting. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office is disgusting. They bring shame on my good name.
The US military is a guilty party.
Sure. Their security was, and probably still is, criminally lousy. But I say again, Manning is subject to military law, not civilian law. By that law he is guilty as charged. Manning signed the terms and conditions when he joined. The terms and conditions are designed with the intention of maintaining discipline and reasonably good order, with preserving the necessary secrecy involved in any kind of military operation, and making sure that the right backs are covered – from a drunken squaddie kicking a civilian in a pub to the general on whose watch a helicopter crew mows down three journalists and assorted brown civilians in a war zone. The army looks after its own.
Not nice, but necessary.
John, let me be clear, I was talking about the UK military, not the immigration fuckup. Your feet don’t touch in the UK forces. About turn, quick march, guardroom, Colchester, everything at the double and no quarter given.
…sorry, immigration and terrorism fuckup.
I guessed that Komodo. I’m going to quick march out of this discussion because I believe that what is wrong with the military is the inability for lower ranks to question orders especially when they are immoral. War is immoral. The military wage war. Professor Carlo Cipolla summed up my view. Man is still a savage: but the weapons at his disposal are more sophisticated.
How about Ben Griffin and Ft Lt Malcol;m Kendall-Smith, war resisters?
Ben did not get a jail sentence but Malcolm did.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Griffin_(British_Army_soldier)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_Kendall-Smith
and a long list here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Iraq_War_Resisters
As a truth teller goes to jail.
“…If the UK FCA financial crime supervision team deals with around 100 cases a year of “ML risk &/or serious weaknesses in firms’ AML controls” why have there been so few enforcement actions..?”
http://rowans-blog.blogspot.co.uk/2013_07_01_archive.html
I often wondered why the term ‘glasshouse’.
Now I know.
Glasshouse (British Army)
A Glasshouse, or The Glasshouse was the term for a military prison in the British Army. The first military prisons were established in 1844. The term Glasshouse originated at the military prison at Aldershot, which had a glazed roof. Over time, the sobriquet came to be applied to all British Army prisons. This prison, called the Detention Barracks, had begun as several barracks in 1856, before being replaced by a single, large building, modelled on civilian prisons, in 1870. This building was destroyed by fire in a riot of 1946.
Glasshouses gained a reputation for brutality, as depicted in Allan Campbell McLean’s novel, The Glass House, and the Sean Connery film, The Hill. Today, the British Army has only one remaining prison, the Military Corrective Training Centre at Colchester. It has a special unit for convicts who are being transferred to HM Prison Service to serve their sentences, which is for anyone serving a sentence over three months.
The Glasshouse at Colchester has been described in the ITV Anglia TV-documentary series, “The Real Red Caps”, (2003).
External links
Hampshire County Council. Aldershot Military Museum: The Glasshouse – The Aldershot Military Detention Barracks
West Highland Free Press: Focus on Allan Campbell McLean, author of The Glasshouse
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasshouse_(British_Army)