The Respectability of Torture
St Mary’s University College, Thurs 1st August, 7.30pm
Craig Murray, former British ambassador to Uzbekistan, was a whistleblower who was removed from his ambassadorial post by Tony Blair for exposing the Tashkent regime‟s use of rape and systematic torture, including the boiling to death of political opponents. He has also spoken out against Central Asia‟s appalling dictatorships, regimes which are allies of the West, involved in torture and rendition, and was accused of threatening MI6‟s relationship with the CIA. Now a human rights activist, author and broadcaster, he outlines the dynamics of torture and the hypocrisy of incriminated Western governments.
My first public appearance for a while will be in Belfast on 1 August where I shall be giving a talk. Long term readers of this blog will recall that, while my focus is largely on international affairs, the domestic political achievements I most hope to see are a united Ireland and an independent Scotland.
He – Trowbridge Ford – still posts on various threads, no? He’s a relatively recent visitor, though. ‘Richard Robinson’ was there several years ago, for several years and then seemed to vanish, as though in the echo of an ancient traditional ballad.
Is this the advent of the Niebelungen Land? (after Nico)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KL1OOqT9oWI
!!NEWSFLASH!!
There are 4,000 holes in Blackburn, Lancashire.
This thread is petering out…
We await the advent of either the spambots… or Tony Opmoc.
I wish JA would distinguish the Pauls from left libertarians, but then, are there any? Except me, that is 🙂
http://www.campusreform.org/blog/?ID=4989
““The only hope as far as electoral politics… presently, is the libertarian section of the Republican party,” said Assange, in response to a question about the recent swell of college-aged and youth-based support for libertarianism.
“The libertarian aspect of the Republican Party is presently the only useful political voice really in the U.S. Congress,” said Assange. “[I] am a big admirer of Ron Paul and Rand Paul for their very principled positions in the U.S. Congress on a number of issues.””
Ben Franklin, yes – there’s a real dilemma for the US left. Voting in the likes of Ron Paul would decimate already weak welfare measures, but stands a chance of sweeping the house clean in terms of foreign wars (the publicly admitted ones) as well as the clandestine ops (interference in Latin America and that sort of thing). The siphoning of public funds to domestic military corporations (e.g. involving foreign aid, preferential treatment in arms purchasing, secret slush funds for the Pentagon etc) might also cease too.
Thus, the damage to the world is reduced, and the benefit/damage to one’s one country is a seriously mixed bag. I’m personally opposed to most of their ‘naked capitalism’ views in relation to the destitute, but paradoxically I think they’d do less harm than Change Candidate Obama.
I’m pretty sure they’d close Guantanamo as well. (I don’t know their stated policies on it but libertarians on the Right would not tolerate such a brazen challenge to the rule of law).
Question is, would you vote for them – tactical voting against the Republicans aside?
Jon; They also tend to be isolationist, and that may not be all bad. But their spartan view of social programs, as you say, is the cautionary tale.
Would I vote for Rand? Can’t tell you at this point, but the two-party monopoly makes for poor choices, so I am open. I hope a LL lifts his/her head to take a peek at the electoral landscape.
It’s a ways off, so I can relax for now.
Whilst I think of it, here’s another interesting problem. Leftists would mostly baulk at voting for Mitt Romney in the last presidential election, but should they have considered spoiling their paper, and not voting Democratic, if they knew that doing so would let Romney in?
Here’s the logic: Obama carries on the worst excesses of Bush foreign and domestic policy, and in some cases even worsens it (the drones program has expanded, and as we recently found out, so have the NSA spying programs). Now, where are the organised leftists campaigning against these developments? Aha – they are either inside the Democratic tent, or they are in some way attached to it. Thus, it’s only grassroots campaigns that stand a chance of succeeding – and with no money or media support, they die on the vine (Occupy notwithstanding, which is not affiliated).
But, what if Romney had gotten in? The organised power of the Dem’s grassroots base would have swung into action. Romney would have easily been portrayed as a money-grubbing capitalist, even though Obama is signed up to much the same ticket (and has the same hyper-privileged background). Furthermore, the Republican would have easily been portrayed as a religious fundamentalist (perhaps not too dissimilar to the “foreigner” stuff Fox News and the Tea Party tried without success upon Obama).
So, if it is true that the Dems would have put boots on the ground to challenge Republican outrages, then is a lack of activity from the same camp evidence of hypocrisy? Perhaps, but then aren’t ordinary Labour Party members in Britain in the same kind of trap? The left is too split to form a new worker’s party, there’s no-one with any money to fund such an operation, and the corporatist media are institutionally biased against it.
It’s a hard time being a reformist these days!
Jon; 2010 had a poor Dem turnout because of disappointment with Obama. As a consequence, much acrimony in that Party resulted when House gained R seats, and a bare majority of Dems held the Senate.
You probably remember the 2000 election with Nader getting votes in Florida, leaving the ‘chad’ wars and Bush was selected by the Supreme Court. Lots of bitterness ensues when you talk about allowing the Obama doppleganger to win by default. Just sayin’
‘Bugger’ seems more polite than ‘buggerer’, but appropriate.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/posts/BUGGER
Ben,
Well yes, but isn’t that bitterness an expression of “the Democratic warmonger who carries on his photo-opportunity careerism isn’t as bad as your Republican warmonger who carries on his photo-opportunity careerism”? 🙂
I shouldn’t mock though – a community centre I sometimes go to is frequented by members of the local Labour Party. I’ve sometimes pondered whether to suggest to them they rename their branch the “Over A Million Dead In Iraq Party” or the “Arms Dealers and PFI Party”, but I then remember they’re probably good people despite the hijacking of their beloved (and, in my view, mostly ineffective) political vehicle.
This brings to mind the peculiarity of how Milliband is kowtowing to the reactionary media by renogotiating the terms upon which the Labour party has a relationship to the unions. It’s meant to be the unions rejecting the Labour Party, not the other way around! I’ve always felt the unions could be an effective electoral national power in their own right, but they’ve (mostly) become what Marx warned about – a microcosm of privilege and power at the top. Thus, they’re the British equivalent of the Democratic reformists I referred to above – both help to maintain the status quo.
A related aside: there’s been some interesting stories in the media recently about how it is Occupy who are encouraging US-based fast-food workers to strike for better pay and conditions. So, it’s not all bad news, and it is nice to see that unaffiliated groups can create such national success.
Regarding the full use of English in political debate above, declaring something to be “bollocks” brings to mind Eddie Izzard:
Silly and absurd humour: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSajE72Tpjs&t=143
Nevermind
it was great to meet you both, sorry i had to dash off in a wee bit of a hurry, you and you’re wife make a wonderful, friendly couple, Cheers
Flaming June,
i truly thought i was beyond being surprised at At bbc sickening Propaganda, how wrong i was, i wonder, if Nigel has it in him to take them on LARGE N LOUD, Show the shits up, Mr R waters could help him out perhaps
Oh, and cheers for the G. Galloway Link
Hi Clark, good to see you here! Pleased to read earlier that the water operations in Wales went well.
I could email Craig to forward your suggestion along, but you may have more luck doing so yourself. Our benevolent host is a busy chap, and, erm, not all of his received correspondence gets a reply 🙂
Anyway, given the fluctuating dynamics here, things can always improve!
Jon: ‘Bollocks’, though is a very English word. One does not hear it enunciated much in Scotland, for example. And ‘The dog’s bollocks’, almost never. These are very southern English phrases, I think.
Bollocks is very big in Ireland.
Though the Dubliners say bollix and in Belfast they say bellecks.
Very useful word.
Bollocks
Etymology
The word has a long and distinguished history, with the Oxford English Dictionary (OED) giving examples of its usage dating back to the 13th century. One of the early references is John Wycliffe bible (1382), Leviticus xxii, 24: “Al beeste, that … kitt and taken a wey the ballokes is, ye shulen not offre to the Lord…” (any beast that is cut and taken away the bollocks, you shall not offer to the Lord, i.e. castrated animals are not suitable as sacrifices).
The OED states (with abbreviations expanded): “Probably a derivative of Teutonic ball-, of which the Old English representative would be inferred as beall-u, -a, or -e”.
The Teutonic ball- in turn probably derives from the Proto-Indo-European base *bhel-, to inflate or swell. This base also forms the root of many other words, including “phallus”.
Meaning “nonsense”
From the seventeenth to the nineteenth century, bollocks or ballocks was allegedly used as a slang term for a clergyman, although this meaning is not mentioned by the OED’s 1989 edition. For example, in 1864, the Commanding Officer of the Straits Fleet regularly referred to his chaplain as “Ballocks”. It has been suggested that bollocks came to have its modern meaning of “nonsense” because clergymen were notorious for talking nonsense during their sermons.[1]
(my italics)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bollocks#Etymology
You need to compare like with like, Mary.
IIRC, Villager gave the etymology of the word “berk”.
CCR’s Run through the Jungle was as haunting as Graveyard train wrt Fogerty’s experience as a Viet Nam Vet. Well done.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbI0cMyyw_M
I was going to say; what a load of bollocks, but then I thought best not to ruin the ambiance and thought it would suffice to highlight the improbability of the above scenario.
1- US government in line with any other front shop for the Plutocrats who own it all, is only bent on reducing it’s liabilities and expenditure on the indentured slaves masquerading as “citizens”. Hence the bullshit about “smaller government”.
1a- “small government” is the phrase for limited expenditure government on social services, and other services which the slaves are the sole users of. The savings made then can be invested in the tax cuts for the rich or for expenditure in more appropriate fields; military industrial complex, security.
1b- The money shuffled from the earnings of the slaves into the pockets of the rich can take many roots; “markets” totally rigged gambling, “military” ie for 4 tonnes of steel there is not much profit at the price of $560 , put some wheels and on it and turn the steel into a howitzer now you can sell the same 4 tonnes of steel for a million dollars. Beats the fucking pants of selling steel for civilian use.
2- US has been running clandestine ops since the inception of CIA back in 1946, in fact Truman had no fucking Idea when he was signing the charter for the CIA what he was creating? The oh so sophisticated OSS turned into CIA only changed in name and not in remit. ie the clandestine wars will never stop
3- Paul can be elected as president tomorrow, but the day after it will be still the same aggressive US empire bent on globalisation it used to be called imperialism, but as with everything else what is in a name? So lets change the names but it is the same old nag.
4- Comforting as it will prove to believe that top down change can rescue the world from the current path into the shitter of the history. However, this patent manifestation of Stockholm Syndrome somehow discounts, why should the plutocrats stop their age old habit of ruling the indentured slaves and stealing their earnings? It is akin to expecting the thieves whom have stolen your wares to treat these with love and care!!!!
Glenn Greenwald on Twitter says
“Transparency is supposed to be for public servants (hence the name), not private individuals (hence the name). That’s now 100% reversed.”
And is the world up in arms about it? Not really …
Glen Uk. @ 2;44 am 16th
Exelent reply to my post thank you, well said indeed
Sad Sad Sad, SCREAM
I mean WTF is going on with these Cretins
The reaction of German politicians and the media to the massacre carried out by the Egyptian army against supporters of ousted President Mohamed Mursi ranges from subdued criticism to outright support.
For its part, the Stuttgarter Nachrichten dismisses talk of compromise between the warring bourgeois camps and recommends full support for the military to suppress every manifestation of social opposition.
“Instead of quoting moralistic clichés, the West needs to make a sober analysis of its own interests,” the newspaper writes. “Civil war creates poverty and a power vacuum, i.e. the best breeding ground for fundamentalists, terrorists and an expansion of the sphere of influence of the Iranian mullahs.”
“The only real concern of the West is stability in Egypt,” the paper concludes. “At the most the US and its allies have influence over the military. They are perhaps no better than the other side, but are possibly susceptible to pressure and arguments. Morality has nothing to do with this, it is rather a question of sober political interests.”
The defense of the Egyptian military by politicians and the media is a warning to the German and European population. In future social conflicts they are prepared to respond just as ruthlessly as the army in Egypt.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/german-politicians-media-defend-the-egyptian-army/5346024
I watched ‘Minority Report’ tonight. Scared me. The film was made in 2002 but all of it is closer now. Eyes are already being scanned – biometric identifiers being collected.
And those little spider robots? I saw a prototype on a tech site only yesterday. But it’s not a police/military version. It’s a 3-D printed version.
http://techcrunch.com/2013/08/15/watch-this-creepy-little-robot-that-can-sneak-under-your-door/
If populations were genuinely preparing for future police states, they’d acquire their own drones, and buy up 3-D printers which can make almost anything.
No point in waiting until they’re both banned.
I’m expecting to be busy again for a while, so before I go…
Jon, my quick glance at this thread suggests that things are a lot nicer here at present, and maybe my suggestion to close comments was a reflection of my own negativity. I’d like to thank you for your moderation, spam clearance and the work you put in on the software.
To any who’ve criticised Jon’s moderation – you shouldn’t. You’ve probably no idea how stressful moderation can be. You’re blessed with a moderator who will actually talk and discuss matters with you, someone who is very straightforward about their policy. This is a rare privilege on the ‘net.
Note regarding Glenn_uk’s comment – I think the bit about an English attitude of superiority was a general observation, more about the BBC and suchlike than aimed at Jon, but I see that it could be read that way.
Villager, I’m sorry you found my comment derogatory to Krishnamurti; that wasn’t my intention. I don’t respect Theosophy, but it’s not Krishnamurti’s fault that he was hot-housed like that. He went on to develop his ideas in a direction that looks OK to me, but I wouldn’t really know because there’s so much in the world and Krishnamurti is but one of many contributors to that body of thought (which overall I respect) so I’ve only found a little time to listen to him.
But I find some of your recent comments puzzling. Some seem rather cynical and maybe even aggressive. Maybe I’m projecting, I’m sorry if so, but to me they just don’t seem to fit with Krishnamurti’s teachings; he seems so much more patient and compassionate. Do you practice? You know, reflection, meditation, prayer, mental discipline like applying ones own arguments to ones self, all or any of these. I try to, a bit, but never enough; pressures of life (my excuse), and often I forget that I should. I suppose that we could all do better, so best wishes.
Habbabkuk, I hate the sort of logical contradiction that the following involves; I can’t find a way to put this without some degree of hypocrisy (maybe Villager knows some appropriate advice from Krishnamurti); I request that you try to decrease the frequency and intensity of your attempts to alter the way other people comment. The thing is, that which you do unto others, some of them try to do also unto you, thus sustaining a process of escalation, leading to polarisation and more heat and less light. If you want more substance on this blog, have a go at fishing for it (with juicy bait!) rather than criticising that which you dislike, because criticism tends to be suppressive. I’ll repost Dreoilin’s highly relevant link:
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/a-blog-around-the-clock/2013/01/28/commenting-threads-good-bad-or-not-at-all/
Craig, very best wishes to you, especially regarding your health.
Obviously nobody cares a bollocks about ‘fracking’ the English countryside, poisoning and polluting Britain. Poor show…
Jives, and Villager, and Brian – thank you.
Villager – I have taken a look at that article. It cautiously states how the various governments have taken advantage of acts of terrorism to impose their preferred restrictions – look at how the PATRIOT act was rushed into place, many hundreds of pages of legislation, mere days after legislators were reeling from the “9/11” event. Incidentally, just two legislators were “anthraxed” – Tom Daschle, Senate majority leader, and Patrick Leahy, two people who might have actually have been able to put the brakes on this long prepared motion.
But doesn’t this article emphasise the timing of the GWOT with the financial meltdown a bit too much? The financial meltdown is only a surprise in that it took this long to happen, after the Reagan/Thatcher initiatives which hollowed out the manufacturing underpinnings of our respective countries. The letting rip of financial speculation, the taxpayer underwriting of this ludicrous gambling once it had got entire out of hand, and the decriminalisation (seriously – not “deregulation”) of practices which were long discredited as being a danger to individuals and institutions. Not to mention a fire-sale of national assets and the squandering of natural resources.
The GWOT was necessary to replace the cold war. That had long been predicted – the individual members that later formed the PNAC group were itching for something else of interest even as the USSR was melting down (as predicted by the CIA throughout the 1980’s).
This financial meltdown is an inevitable consequence of the bubble-machine created in the 1980’s. With a massive and increasing concentration of wealth in the very top, the 0.1% or fewer, it was inevitable that credit-based consumerism would not last long. I’m just surprised it’s lasted as long as it has. I’m inclined to see this – together with the climate disaster about to overtake us in the next decade or so – as a coinciding set of terrible events, which were not so much planned, as blundered into.
But then, as supposedly the Roman poet Juvenal said, as long as the people have bread and circuses, they will never revolt. In our case we have social security/ food-stamps for our bread, and the lifestyles of the rich (and desperately aspiring to be rich!) as our circuses.
I recommend the science fiction books of Iain M Banks, who died recently. Banks invented a technologically advanced society called the Culture; Humanity is currently in the process of developing many of the advanced technologies that Banks wrote about.
The Culture is basically a utopia run by its benevolent machine intelligences. In the real world, human values are currently being programmed into our machines; here’s a particularly clear example:
http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/aug/14/problem-with-algorithms-magnifying-misbehaviour
But the Internet, Wikipedia, Facebook; modelling, animation and recognition software; cameras and sound recorders, and even machines that spy and kill – all carry various values and judgements derived or copied or developed from human capabilities and behaviours. Right now, by contributing here, we add our thoughts and values, encoded as searchable text, to multiple databases that answer specific text-based queries; we seem to be building the infrastructure of an engine of (one particular aspect of) human thought! Krishnmurti was right; our personal natures are critical to the world that we build, and technological development is hugely amplifying the effect by embodying our values into active machines and systems. So let’s be careful about what we contribute, as we can’t know what future systems it might become parts of.
Many systems are being programmed with the values of the elite. But there’s also a huge current of community culture, shared understanding across international communications, the Creative Commons, Free software and the like. I find the implied future contradictions beyond my ability to contemplate. I can merely do my best, to try to add something positive and sociable and constructive to the gathering ocean of human idea, and thus hopefully encourage others to do the same.
Best wishes to all.
Clark – before you disappear again, may I quickly say that my comments about the English attitude was not aimed at Jon, you are correct. That was targeted at calls to censorship, not the moderators. Jon – sorry if you thought that was a pop at you. (Don’t worry – I make any pop at an individual very clear!)
Another note to you, Clark – aren’t you receiving my emails? You’ve responded as if they had not arrived at all. Not sure what’s going on there, I can resend if you haven’t actually seen them.
Appreciate your follow-up on negativity – it’s a bit much to suggest that comments should be closed to a lively audience, that has attracted over 2000 comments on this thread, just because you don’t like the drift yourself. If one don’t like it, nobody is obliged to read or participate. That is where my appeals against censorship come in. So thank you for taking that request back – it’s a bit of a “I’m going home and taking the ball with me” kind of attitude which doesn’t sit well. I’m sorry if you’re feeling a bit negative, and would be happy to discuss in email (if it’s actually working!)
*
Jon – my argument for free speech (as I believe CM originally intended for this blog) was here:
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/07/gently-back-into-the-water/comment-page-5/#comment-420459
I didn’t see any follow-up on it. But now you say you “disagree” with it. Hmm. Fine, let’s not get bogged down in minutia, eh?
And given this curt dismissal of my arguments for free speech, and in order to participate in this blog as well as can be allowed, may I give the only answer that appears to be acceptable : YES SIR !!
Meanwhile, this worthy discussion of semantics aside, the NHS which I care about deeply, is going down at a fast pace.
85% of family doctors say general practice ‘in crisis’ as half say they can no longer guarantee safe patient care http://www.rcgp.org.uk/news/2013/june/85-percent-of-family-doctors-say-general-practice-in-crisis.aspx
‘The RCGP said this situation was beginning to have an impact.
Chairman Dr Clare Gerada said: “GPs are grappling with a double whammy of spiralling workloads and dwindling resources, and big cracks are starting to appear in the care and services that we can deliver for our patients.
“We are particularly concerned about the effect this is having, and will continue to have, on waiting times for GP appointments.
“The profession is now at breaking point and we do not have the capacity to take on any more work without extra funding and resources to back it up.”
The poll showed that 78% of GPs had already seen a reduction in opening hours over the past two years, while nearly half had cut back on the range of services they offered.’
GPs predict longer waiting times – survey
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-23724215
Also in the real world, I looked to see what reporting there was from Syria whilst the slaughter continues in Egypt and Cairo is ‘on fire’ literally. 80 more deaths were reported yesterday.
UN inspectors are entering Syria to investigate whether there has been use of chemical weapon use on either side.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23707713
200 Australians amongst 6,000 foreign fighters are assisting the rebels.
http://world.time.com/2013/07/16/gday-damascus-australians-are-joining-syrias-rebels-in-surprising-numbers/
Syria’s war has exposed the hypocrisy of western powers
The conflict has become an ugly proxy battle between innumerable outside forces. If the Australian government is so worried about terrorism, it should stop backing it in Syria
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/14/syria-australia-battle
The Sudanese president al-Bashir is conducting covert arming of the rebels.
Uncovering Syrian Rebels’ Hidden Support
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article35867.htm
Hague seems to be absent. The Sun reported that he would be away for the whole of August.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/5037758/William-Hagues-holiday-plea-to-Foreign-Office-staff.html
Over the past decade, Israel has surged up the arms trade’s international rankings. Despite having a population smaller than New York City, Israel has emerged as one of the world’s largest exporters of armaments.
Last month, defence analysts Jane’s put Israel in sixth place, ahead of China and Italy, both major weapons producers. Surveys that include Israel’s growing covert trade put it even higher, in fourth place, ahead of Britain and Germany, and beaten only by the United States, Russia and France.
The extent of Israel’s success in this market can be gauged by a simple mathematical calculation. With record sales last year of $7 billion (Dh25.7 billion), Israel earned nearly $1,000 from the arms trade per capita – up to 10 times the per capita income the US derives from its manufacture of weapons.
[..]
The Lab, which won a recent award at DocAviv, Israel’s documentary Oscars, is due to premiere in the US early next month. Directed by Yotam Feldman, the film presents the first close-up view of Israel’s arms industry and the dealers who have enriched themselves. The title relates to the film’s central argument that Israel has rapidly come to rely on the continuing captivity of Palestinians, in what are effectively the world’s largest open-air prisons. Massive profits are made from testing innovations on the more than four million Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank.
Attacks such as Operation Cast Lead of winter 2008-09 or last year’s Operation Pillar of Defence, the film argues, serve as little more than laboratory-style experiments to evaluate and refine the effectiveness of new military approaches, both strategies and weaponry. Gaza, in particular, has become the shop window for Israel’s military industries, allowing them to develop and market systems for long-term surveillance, control and subjugation of an “enemy” population.’
[..]
Israel’s thriving arms trade is a setback to peace agreement
Jonathan Cook
Jul 23, 2013
http://www.thenational.ae/thenationalconversation/comment/israels-thriving-arms-trade-is-a-setback-to-peace-agreement
Flaming June
To reinforce my point that perhaps R Waters could – along with Nigel Kennedy.. go to war with bbc over deletion of the offending comments… And why the silence from Gabriel Ect Sinade C, They, well at least Waters has, a huge following… Gabriel too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1fYDBib39s