The Respectability of Torture
St Mary’s University College, Thurs 1st August, 7.30pm
Craig Murray, former British ambassador to Uzbekistan, was a whistleblower who was removed from his ambassadorial post by Tony Blair for exposing the Tashkent regime‟s use of rape and systematic torture, including the boiling to death of political opponents. He has also spoken out against Central Asia‟s appalling dictatorships, regimes which are allies of the West, involved in torture and rendition, and was accused of threatening MI6‟s relationship with the CIA. Now a human rights activist, author and broadcaster, he outlines the dynamics of torture and the hypocrisy of incriminated Western governments.
My first public appearance for a while will be in Belfast on 1 August where I shall be giving a talk. Long term readers of this blog will recall that, while my focus is largely on international affairs, the domestic political achievements I most hope to see are a united Ireland and an independent Scotland.
“- It would mean losing Trident.
– The UK would lose its permanent seat on the UN security council.”
Why? There’s no requirement for the permanent members of the UN Security Council to be nuclear powers or to have a population in excess of 55 million. They’re just the founder members of the security council, certainly the US would be in no hurry to vote of it’s only staunch ally/tame puppy.
Independence wouldn’t mean losing Trident just the base it operates from. If a deal couldn’t be struck with an independent Scotland the subs would move elsewhere or operate from the US. Frankly I would expect Eck and the SNP to be amenable to having some money waved under their noses as they were by Souter and Trump especially as 7,500+ Scottish jobs would be on the line.
For Phil (and anyone else, of course)
I should add, to my list of potential escapes from the status quo, that I would support a national broad left party backed by the unions. I posted yesterday that the wet lettuce Milliband is telling them to sling their hook, but they should have told the Labour party much the same years ago.
I am supportive of unions in general, but do not hold out great hope that the hierarchy of the unions we actually have lends them well to radical social change. Perhaps sortition for the upper echelons would be a blessing here?
Macky, apologies – yes, I am reading threads too quickly. OK, fair enough.
Jon; “Cryptonym chose not to defend themselves”
An assumption on your part iro Cryptonym refusal to defend what didn’t need defending.
Jon; “which I took to mean that they too found the paragraph in question difficult to defend.”
Another baseless assertion especially considering that I manage to “defend” it enough to convince others.
I have no interest in taking this up with Craig, as it seems you are happy that you were right in how you dealt with Cryptonym, but I wanted to highlight this for others to draw their own conclusions.
AA; If you are around, here are some interesting links wrt comets and sundry earth-bound concerns.
http://www.sott.net/article/145683-New-Light-on-the-Black-Death-The-Cosmic-Connection
http://www.sott.net/article/146792-The-Hazard-to-Civilization-from-Fireballs-and-Comets
http://earthquakesandcomets.blogspot.com/
Kempe
My main point was to show Marr’s positioning on the matter. He’s agin it, but of course the BBC will be “balanced” in its representation of the issue.
The UK’s permanent Security Council seat isn’t so straightforward.
There have long been questions around the UK permanent seat, with Germany often considered the alternative European representative, and should the Scots seccede then I believe the issue would be forced openly onto the table, with perhaps an agreement that it be an EU seat.
I further believe that the Scots will not be allowed to seccede other than in circumstances in which there is a radical decline in the UK’s position in the world. In such circumstances the issue of Trident would certainly arise and in that very different context would surely be considered unsustainable.
Jon: “Villager, your many paragraphs of dissent are again noted, but politely disagreed with. You are free to appeal to Craig, but when Craig searches for “Villager” in the backend software, I am not convinced he will find you a model of civility and discourse. Really, I wish I could see it otherwise. In the meantime, it is my fervent hope you can independently find some peace and reconciliation with the various people here you appear to have fallen out with.”
Ooooh look now we’re trying to issue report cards here! And before we go any further, you lied about the implied use of the word ‘cunt’ by me, other than an extract from the dictionary re berk. The last time it was used here was probably by Craig, but i make no judgment about that.
Anyhow you’ve got the wrong end of the stick — its not about Villager. Its about your whimsical so-called moderation and the principles behind it. Although even if you or Craig do care to look at the backend of your software, you will find a good measure of wisdom resident there. And when not perhaps there was some perceived measure of bullying while you were hibernating. You then woke up and locked the barn doors after the horse had bolted and are still doing that–living in history. While the most intelligent anyway have moved on.
***I am not going to repeat Glenn’s couple of cohesive comments on the subject, but all you have done is dismissed them out of hand. I think you will agree that you will safely find them to be ” a model of civility and discourse.” But what about your civil response to him?***
Ball is in your court to prove that its not about your new-found power. I still recall good ol’ Frazer recently expounding that it was a light touch here, implying also that that eventually brought more light. There is an old saying that even gold needs to go through fire for it to be made into something beautiful. I don’t mean to sound romantic now, but the principle is the same.
Craig
Give us another post, like a good man.
Even “Hello World” will do to make a break in the comments.
Macky, fair point, but i guess its because its made in a more jocular vein and doesn’t literally imply that he’s stoned. Second i wanted to point out your own ‘anger’. Third i consider both Ben and Habby as ‘friends’ and don’t want to get in between. Fourth Habby doesn’t go around changing Ben’s name as you do Habby — i’d make a friendly suggestion that you drop that clown business.
We’ve had our differences and our agreements, i’m happy to drop all history if you wish. Sounds like we have some common ground wrt Jon and i must add i find his suggestions of going running to Craig, especially when he’s unwell, to be so childish and lacking in his own responsibility. Or he could tell us if this is what Craig’s wish is, if that were a fact.
Ben Polo’s comment reminds of your post of the other day when you went July 30, 2012 seems like a long time away. I didn’t get it at first. It was so subtle. Hope all’s well. First amendment deleted here.
@ Macky
“I merely asked the question, but do feel free to try to explain why you don’t take similar objections iro the Habu-Clowns frequent weed smoking slurs against Ben Franklin ?”
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It’s not a slur, it’s fact. I suggest you ask him yourself and see if he denies it.
Whilst the current problems here seem on the surface to be an infestation of propaganda trolls with no interest in discussing issues and preferring instead personality attacks and general disruption, I think it’s important to understand that there’s an older division here between those who’d prefer to discuss political issues and those who consider it their own personal chatroom.
I think that may well explain some of the curious alliances and antagonisms that have developed since.
That piece of information may well assist those newbies who are wondering what’s going on here.
I think it’s fair to say that Villager was something of a poster child for the chatroomies, and wasn’t best pleased when those who wished to discuss political matters became dominant.
@ Mod/Jon – re. deletion of one of my posts :
Villager wrote as follows ;
“Ditto this morning: John Goss accuses one/two of sock puppeting — you’re ok with that and then come back much later snipping again follow-on comments.”
_________________
Had I seen the deletion earlier I would have made the same comment.
It is really not good enough to allow accusations of sock-puppeting but to disallow refutations by the person or persons accused. You have the technical means to verify such accusations (although I’ve been given to understand that people can, if sufficiently proficient – which I am certainly not – conceal sock-puppeting?)and I would repeat my invitation to you to investigate the accusation and pronounce.
I also recall that part of my deleted post suggested that John Goss should reveal some personal information – not about where to find him, for example, but information which would enable those who read his posts to see where he’s coming from politically. The question read something like this : “what you got up to when you worked at the BMC (British Motor Company) and on whose behalf”. I consider this suggestion to be less outrageous than an accusation that Villager and I (and perhaps others) are one and the same.
Herbie.
What Germany wants, and what is supported by the other two european members, France and the UK, is an increase in the number of permanent members to include Germany, Japan, Brazil, India and one African state and/or one from the Arab League. However the bureaucratic nature of the UN means it’s unlikely to happen soon if at all. Nobody is seriously talking about any current member having to stand down. I suspect though that ultimately the EU will demand just one European seat.
You’ll notice that only one of the proposed new members is a nuclear power.
Herbie @ 5;25pm
Herbie @ 5;59pm – “That piece of information may well assist those newbies who are wondering what’s going on here”.
I was expressing that exact concern with Nevermind and his Wife yesterday in Glasgow – What newbie’s must be thinking
I agree %100 with Macky – “and everytime somebody writes “This used to be my favorite place on the Web. These days, it just makes me feel sick”, the Habbu-Clown smiles in self-satisfaction”
I have said myself, that Craig’s Blog was the first place i came to when i fire up the P.C, Can’t be sure now, but i think that comment was in support of Craig when he was feeling very down at that time,
Anyway I hope that as Jon Suggests, Craig is very Busy rather than ill
And Jon, i hope the Blog doesn’t Effin make you ill
AND Herbie @ 5;59
i read somewhere that Marr said he would apply for a Scottish passport if we got Indepenence
But check oot this crazy little interview
BUCHANAN: Let’s get some basics, first of all. Is Scotland in the North Atlantic?
RENNIE: Yes, of course it is.
BUCHANAN: Does it have a functioning democratic political system, based on a market economy?
RENNIE: As part of the United Kingdom it does, yes.
BUCHANAN: Would it, as an independent country?
RENNIE: Well it’s not an independent country, so it doesn’t.
BUCHANAN: If it were, do you think it would have a functioning democratic political system with a market economy?
RENNIE: I, I, I… I suppose so.
BUCHANAN: You’re not quite sure on that. Do you think it would have fair treatment of minority populations?
RENNIE: I would think so.
BUCHANAN: Do you think it would have a commitment to peaceful resolution of conflict, the ability and willingness to make a military contribution to NATO operations?
RENNIE: Well, that’s where the real test comes, isn’t it? It depends what you mean as a meaningful contribution. Does it accept the fact that NATO is a nuclear alliance – which it is – which members of NATO have to accept, even if they themselves do not have nuclear weapons?
BUCHANAN: Do you think it would have a commitment to democratic civil-military relations and institutional structures, and do you think that, that, that, that, if that is the case, if all these boxes can be ticked (and most of them surely can be), then what is your reasoning for suggesting that independent Scotland would not be welcomed as a member of NATO? These are some of the entry criteria for NATO.
RENNIE: Well, what they’re seeking to do is to undermine the rest of the United Kingdom, or the UK’s nuclear deterrent, by asking, by requesting, by demanding that it leaves the Clyde. The rest of NATO might have something to say about that, if one of its key members – one of its key members – its nuclear deterrence was undermined by…
BUCHANAN: One of its entry criteria is a functioning democratic political system. If the political system determines that Scotland should be independent and nuclear-free, then surely they’re being very consistent with NATO’s principles by being democratic and expressing the democratic will of the Scottish people?
RENNIE: No, no. Because they’re seeking to undermine the nuclear deterrence of what would be another country. That’s the crucial point. They’re actually… it’s not as if they’re some kind of passive participant in this process. They would actually be actively seeking to undermine another member of NATO and its defence system.
http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-limits-of-democracy/
Villager; “Macky, fair point, but i guess its because its made in a more jocular vein and doesn’t literally imply that he’s stoned.”
Not the impression that I get when I read “smoke a milder weed”, being just one of the Habbu-Clown’s retort when mocking Ben’s comments
Villager; “Second i wanted to point out your own ‘anger’.”
Keep your assumptions about my emotion state to yourself, as they are invariably wrong anyway.
Villager; “Third i consider both Ben and Habby as ‘friends’ and don’t want to get in between.”
“friends” ! That’s why Ben classes the Clown as one of “The miscreants”, and as a “bed-bud” that needs to be “fumigated” !
Villager; “Fourth Habby doesn’t go around changing Ben’s name as you do Habby — i’d make a friendly suggestion that you drop that clown business.”
What’s that got to do with anything; as I’ve said before, when the Clown stops clowning around & starts to treat this Blog with respect, then, & only then will I drop the Clown term.
Villager; “We’ve had our differences and our agreements, i’m happy to drop all history if you wish. Sounds like we have some common ground wrt Jon and i must add i find his suggestions of going running to Craig, especially when he’s unwell, to be so childish and lacking in his own responsibility. Or he could tell us if this is what Craig’s wish is, if that were a fact.”
Sorry, I can forgive but can never forget; your behavior here since the arrival of the Clown has permanently altered my opinion of you, and we have no common ground iro Jon, as my exchange here with him was to illustrate that he is not infallible, in that he cannot see the underlying racism in Suhayl Saadi posts, but thinks he sees racism in Cryptonym’s Post. Whereas all your whinny beef seems to be about why he is not infallible, ie is the unfairness of his moderation.
@Habbu-Clown; “It’s not a slur, it’s fact.”
It’s definitely a slur in the manner you use it against him, to try to belittle his comments.
@Habbu-Clown; “I suggest you ask him yourself and see if he denies it.”
I did but Suhayl Saadi has decided not to respond.
Kempe
My original post was about changing contexts, in the event of Scottish seccession.
Since I don’t believe that Scotland will be allowed to seccede unless the UK is radically weakened in the world, then it follows that were Scotland to seccede that radical weakness would have come to pass and that would ensure a bit of musical chairs at the UN, so far as the UK seat is concerned.
I agree that the best solution for Germany is control of that seat through the EU, rather than taking it to themselves directly.
The Security Council was set up to reflect the balance of power in the world at the time. Power means the capacity to carry out your will. That means having access to superior weaponry. It was the bureaucratization of raw naked power, and it’s important not to underestimate what that means.
It was never about handing out seats democratically, and you can clearly see the lesser forms of membership in the mish mash of non-permanent members. This is intended as a reflection of their lesser power in the world, and looks better when selling the thing to those who think the world works in a bureaucratic or democratic fashion.
Wow Herbie what a display of brain-power. How many years did it take you to figure that out, or is this your little baby Sofia’s history ‘narrative’ lesson? Hope she doesn’t get as bored as me.
Brian
I certainly wish you well in your attempt to escape this godawful parasitic plutocrat paradise, but it’s only fair to point out that votes are not enough.
Not even lashings of Irn Bru will do.
The Irish learnt that lesson a long time ago.
From the Sky News twitter feed:
“Sky Sources: Scotland Yard assessing new information about the death of Princess Diana in Paris in 1997”
“Sky Sources: new information on death of Princess Diana was passed to Metropolitan Police from the parents-in-law of a former soldier”
Now that is interesting Fred. In a field of all possibilities that could be a game changer.
Herbie true, unfortunately.
AND i find it just soul destroying, how even as we watch the horrors unfolding in Egypt – we continue to sell the Junta Arms,
And Why was we went in and caused even worse horrors and crimes in Libya, Awww don’t remind me
Figures published in July 2013 show that the UK had licensed over £65 million worth of arms exports to the country from the fall of the Mubarak regime to the end of March 2013.
This included assault rifles, machine guns, thermal imaging equipment, military communications equipment and components for military combat vehicles and combat helicopters.
http://stopwar.org.uk/index.php/middle-east-and-north-africa/2637-the-uk-has-never-stopped-selling-arms-to-egypt-we-need-an-embargo-now
And So back to Libya –
In 2011 in Libya, Washington, London, Paris, and a horde of human rights activists insisted that everything had to be done to “prevent a massacre in Benghazi,” where opponents of Colonel Muammar al-Gaddafi had revolted. On this basis, they supported setting up “humanitarian corridors” and a no-fly zone in Libya. This led to a NATO war in which tens of thousands of people were killed, cities carpet-bombed, and Libya’s oil revenues seized by Western banks.
In Syria, reports that President Bashar al-Assad’s regime was “killing its own people” were used to justify a US policy of arming Islamist forces, including Al Qaeda and Syria’s MB, for a campaign to topple Assad.
The same political double-bookkeeping can be observed among the academic supporters of “humanitarian” war. Despite the Egyptian junta’s documented massacre in Cairo against its “own people,” they are not producing outraged newspaper columns, blog posts, or demands for war to oust the junta and impose a no-fly zone to ground its helicopters over Cairo.
The massacre of protesters in Cairo confirms again that US policy is not set by moral abstractions, but by a ruthless calculation of US imperialism’s geopolitical interests. Various “human rights” arguments served to manipulate public opinion and, with the assistance of a corrupt media establishment, secure the support of layers of the middle class for imperialist policies.
Masses of workers and youth must come to recognize the moral sermons of Obama for what they are: propaganda in the pursuit of imperialism’s geostrategic interests.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/obama-and-the-egyptian-massacre/5346070
I found this link to the Sky story on Princess Di’s death.
http://news.sky.com/story/1129902/dianas-death-police-passed-new-information
Could be disinformation to detract from the documentary that cannot be seen by those living in the UK. Or it could help corroborate it. I have seen Allen’s documentary and it really does discredit the MSM in how it selectively reports.
http://www.theguardian.com/film/2012/jul/05/princess-diana-documentary-unlawful-killing
I would expect ridicule from certain quarters of this blog, that is those who are not open to change.
Flaming June
17 Aug, 2013 – 5:02 am
Scottish Independence:
“It would mean the loss of Trident … and because of the loss of population and of Trident, the rest of the UK would lose its permanent seat on the security council in the UN and its voting power inside the EU would be radically slashed.”
I’m sure that this is the way the “British State” views the possible outcome of a yes vote and for that reason it won’t be allowed to happen; power is never relinquished voluntarily.
Is this a case of the truth will out? A troubled mind or conscience?
New information that alleges Princess Diana was murdered has been passed to Scotland Yard through military sources, according to the Metropolitan Police.
The information, thought to include the allegation that the Princess of Wales, Dodi al Fayed and their driver were killed by a member of the British military, will be assessed by officers from the Specialist Crime and Operations Command.
It was passed to the police by the former parents-in-law of a former soldier, according to Sky sources.
pg3 Dodi Al Fayed CCTV ritz princess dianaPrincess Diana and Dodi al Fayed leaving the Ritz Hotel on August 31, 1997
The deaths of the Princess Diana and Mr al Fayed in Paris in 1997 were investigated and examined during a 90-day inquest led by Lord Justice Scott Baker at the Royal Court of Justice in 2007.
On April 7, 2008, the jury concluded their verdict as “unlawful killing, grossly negligent driving of the following vehicles and of the Mercedes”.
The Metropolitan Police added the assessment was not a re-investigation and does not come under Operation Paget – the inquiry led by Lord Stevens into conspiracy theories surrounding Princess Diana and Mr al Fayed’s deaths.
pg3 Dodi Al Fayed CCTV ritz princess dianaThe wreckage of the Mercedes the pair were travelling in when it crashed
After the inquest, the Metropolitan Police said it had spent £8m on services arising from it and the Operation Paget investigation from 2004 to 2006.
Former Met Police commissioner Lord Stevens published his report in December 2006, rejecting claims that Princess Diana and Mr al Fayed had been murdered.
Sky’s Crime Correspondent Martin Brunt said: “We understand this information includes an allegation that Princess Diana and Dodi al Fayed and the driver of their car were killed by a member of the British military.
“The information we’re told was passed to Scotland Yard quite recently. It also includes, we understand, references to something known as Diana’s diary.
“These are very early days, the information has just come in, and Scotland Yard is adamant in saying that this is not a reopening of its investigation from 2004 when it spent three years looking into the circumstances of the Princess’ death.
“But it is taking the information seriously and it is considering and it is possible that a new investigation may open.”
Diana, Mr al Fayed and their driver Henri Paul died after the Mercedes crashed in a Paris tunnel on August 31, 1997.
http://news.sky.com/story/1129902/dianas-death-police-passed-new-information
Sorry to be boring, but lies must be countered. The liar in question this time is Corporal MACKY (18h52).
1. “Not the impression that I get when I read “smoke a milder weed”, being just one of the Habbu-Clown’s retort when mocking Ben’s comments”
______________
Please indicate where I wrote “smoke a milder weed”. Thread, date and time, please.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
2. @Habbu-Clown; “It’s not a slur, it’s fact.”
“It’s definitely a slur in the manner you use it against him, to try to belittle his comments.”
____________
I honestly believe that Ben posts under the influence of the weed. There is no other explanation for his wooliness and confusion.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
3.”@Habbu-Clown; “I suggest you ask him yourself and see if he denies it.”
I did but Suhayl Saadi has decided not to respond.”
________________
Why should Suhayl respond to a question which I asked YOU to address to BEN? Have you asked Ben yet? Be silent until you do so, please.
Thanks for that, Mary.
On Diana
Funny it doesn’t mention the bodyguard. He was a former Para, and the only one to survive. He didn’t remember anything but still managed to write a book about it.
It’d be interesting to find out who are these former parents-in-law.
I’m sure Mary will dig out the answers in due course.
The same pathologist that the Attorney General called in when an appeal was made for an inquest for Dr Kelly.
Coroner’s Inquests into the deaths of Diana, Princess of Wales, and Mr Dodi Al Fayed.
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20090607230252/http://www.scottbaker-inquests.gov.uk/hearing_transcripts/220108pm.htm
See
Professor Richard Shepherd and the Unnatural Death of Dr David Kelly: Haemorrhage from Cutting the Ulnar Artery. A Sole Cause of Death?
http://www.globalresearch.ca/professor-richard-shepherd-and-the-unnatural-death-of-dr-david-kelly-haemorrhage-from-cutting-the-ulnar-artery-a-sole-cause-of-death/5345785
Dr David Halpin August 13 2013 Part 5 of a series by that author.
I have but two comments on the “Princess Diana was murdered” squib posted (cut and paste, I mean) at 20h06 :
1/. It is deplorable that when the NHS and public services are being squeezed, millions of GBP should be spent as a result of lunatics venting off about conspiracies. It is a pity that there is no way to make the conspiracy theorists concerned repay those monies into the public purse.
2/. Of course the British military was involved! Thanks to Israeli technology, the authorities succeeded in minaturizing a corporal who hid in the glove compartment and then, when the car was in the tunnel, leapt out and shot the three occupants of the car. Simples!
Lying Habbu-Clown; “Please indicate where I wrote “smoke a milder weed”. Thread, date and time, please.”
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/07/gently-back-into-the-water/?showmore=1
Habbu-Clown;”I honestly believe that Ben posts under the influence of the weed.”
Exactly my thinking about some of Suhayl Saadi postings, but I don’t make a habit of belittleing him about it.
Lying Habbu-Clown; “There is no other explanation for his wooliness and confusion.”
but you offered this insincere excusing “explanation just a little earlier !;
“My belief is based on the fact that reading his posts is like trying to gaze through a dense cloud of smoke.”
At least try to keep to one script !
Habbu-Clown; “Have you asked Ben yet?”
No intention of doing so, afterall he’s a big boy & can respond as he sees fit, but it’s doesn’t alter the fact that you do use it as a belittling slur against him.