The Respectability of Torture
St Mary’s University College, Thurs 1st August, 7.30pm
Craig Murray, former British ambassador to Uzbekistan, was a whistleblower who was removed from his ambassadorial post by Tony Blair for exposing the Tashkent regime‟s use of rape and systematic torture, including the boiling to death of political opponents. He has also spoken out against Central Asia‟s appalling dictatorships, regimes which are allies of the West, involved in torture and rendition, and was accused of threatening MI6‟s relationship with the CIA. Now a human rights activist, author and broadcaster, he outlines the dynamics of torture and the hypocrisy of incriminated Western governments.
My first public appearance for a while will be in Belfast on 1 August where I shall be giving a talk. Long term readers of this blog will recall that, while my focus is largely on international affairs, the domestic political achievements I most hope to see are a united Ireland and an independent Scotland.
Diana
Oh dear.
That fine barometer of public opinion, Habby’s on the case.
Must be true, then.
They’ll be rushing out the rotten apple in the barrel defense as we speak. I often wonder how many apples are left in that barrel.
Re. Macky’s comments, from earlier today:
I think it’s pretty clear that I was expressing my frustration, as a Muslim person, at the armies’ of Muslim-majority countries ‘bravery’ in frequently and systemically mass murdering their own people but wetting themselves when faced with, say, Western forces. I think this would be a view shared by many millions of Muslims, Arabs, etc. around the world. Indeed, it is one of the factors that has led to so much support for Islamist political movements and paramilitaries – who, whatever else they may be and do, do not appear to suffer from urinary incontinence when faced by Western forces. The ignominious and complete defeat of Arab nationalism in 1967 was a direct contributory factor to the rise of Islamism throughout the Muslim world. Is anyone actually interested in real history, or do they prefer to stick with comforting ideological belief systems?
It seems that when I criticise Islamists (political or military wings), I am denounced by (usually white) commentators as, “racist” and “a Zionist” and when I criticise the military forces that currently are busy killing Islamist civilians en masse, I am denounced by some (one assumes, white) commentators as a “racist”. And then, too, for no real reason, I have been called “a Jew-hater” and Islamist (though I sense Villager was angry at the time and probably didn’t mean it and no sweat, man, as the guru said in the steam-room).
My comments sometimes may not fit with what people think I ‘ought’ to be thinking/saying/writing. I will not be placed in a box of any sort. This Jack is out of the box.
I am disgusted by what the Egyptian Army are doing right now, this minute. And nothing will stop me from writing, and saying, what I think on this, or any other subject.
Btw, thanks, Jon, Habbabkuk and Villager, for your supportive comments.
I have been watching Thatcher The Downing Street Years. You can tell I am ill!
When you read that she was in power for 11 years, that fact hits home.
Thatcher: The Downing Street Years
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b039467f
Woman at War
Tracing Margaret Thatcher’s 11 years as Prime Minister. This examines how she rejected the post war consensus that had governed the country for more than 30 years.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23731219
@Villager. 7 23pm
Re Herbie’s posts about context and Scottish seccession.
“…is this your little baby Sofia’s history ‘narrative’ lesson?”
I want you to know that I visit this blog because of the abundance of contributors like Herbie, from whom I learn stuff that adds to my sense of the larger picture. ( I won’t make a list, but it would be quite long. Thanks one and all.)
Even at the cost of wading through tides of distraction and abuse I find these threads revealing and get the sense that the false narratives peddled by the acolytes of power in the corporate media and blogosphere are increasingly floundering on the rocks of hard evidence.
You’ve ignored repeated requests by me and others to discuss issues and clarify why you hold so tight to your truths, whether revealed or subjective, and get so angry with those you judge to be wrong. I’d love to learn something from you too.
So how about, since you have reintroduced the topic of “narrative”, that we discuss just that?
What is it about the notion that power elites manipulate the public by manipulating the narratives that you find so hard to accept?
Can you give examples to back up your opinion?
What are the odds that you will now;
ignore this request,
insult another poster,
produce another sermon,
or engage with the issue?
The above link was to an interview with actor and activist, Khalid Abdalla (‘The Kite Runner’, etc.). He condemns the killings, says that “both sides are wrong” and rejects binaries. No doubt he would be denounced here on this blog by some commentators.
“Both the Army and the Muslim Brotherhood are fascist organisations”, Khalid Abdall.
Absolutely.
Have you heard how Thatcher’s runner, D. Cameron, is selling himself to raise funds. How low can you go Dave?
Not quite as the title suggests.
Cash-for-access: £1,750 for access to the Prime Minister’s bed…
For the right price, sponsors can leave a flyer on his duvet at the Tory party conference
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/cashforaccess-1750-for-access-to-the-prime-ministers-bed-8771525.html
I have but two comments on the “Princess Diana was murdered” squib posted (cut and paste, I mean) at 20h06 :
1/. It is deplorable that when the NHS and public services are being squeezed, millions of GBP should be spent as a result of lunatics venting off about conspiracies. It is a pity that there is no way to make the conspiracy theorists concerned repay those monies into the public purse.
2/. Of course the British military was involved! Thanks to Israeli technology, the authorities succeeded in miniaturizing (sic) a corporal who hid in the glove compartment and then, when the car was in the tunnel, leapt out and shot the three occupants of the car. Simples!
Sounds just like David Aaronovitch. Straight out of The Voodoo Histories.
PS There were 8 minutes between the time of my post and the one above. Hardly any time to read two long links or perhaps speed reading is another one of the contributor’s attributes.
Sofia,
The Doors – You’re Lost Little Girl (Lyrics, in the description.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKzZOkQH-S8
Better than history lessons from Uncle Herbie.
The contributor being Habbabkuk for clarity as the page has turned.
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Flaming June at 8.17 pm. Thanks very much for those two links.
@Villager. 9 25pm
Is your response really a reply worthy of a grown-up?
How about we discuss the subject of “narrative” ( which, after all you introduced to the thread)?
Ah, sorry to interrupt the ‘news’, but can’t help noticing this bollocks about Suhayl. How extraordinary.
Is this really the ‘alternative’? People lining up in factions to attack one faction or another and using every trick in the book, from patriarchal sexism, to random slurs, in order to – I don’t know what it’s in order to do. Am I supposed to ‘support’ Macky, because he is technically of the ‘left’, and therefore, right; or Herbie, ditto, or whatever name Mary is posting under because she supports the Palestinians? FFS.
I have learnt a lot from just about everyone on this board. And I think that a lot of the circular frustration of these comments sections now is because of the surrounding world outside the keyboard, not because of the people inside it. Necessarily. But I like – like, an important word – people who disagree, or who can add, or engage with the subject in question whatever. And I don’t like this idea that somehow we all exist in abstract; that there is an ‘accepted’ line; that any questioning is paid for. Otherwise what are we here for? Just to keep posting and underline our own prejudices?
As for Habbakuk: Suppose Habbakuk is ‘hasbara’. Suppose he is getting paid to post. He is still a person. If you think he is just a paid and cynical shill for the murderous and brutal Israeli government then ffs ignore him. Or defeat that view with facts.
None of this is happening. Instead it is ‘oh poor me’ or ‘how dare you criticise that person’ or ‘so and so is this’ or ‘let me feed this into the random insult generator’: I tell you what, if you had been ever under fire your egos would be more occupied in fighting for others, and less about fighting for yourselves, or your pet poster.
And on that note and sure I have contradicted myself several times in this post (‘hypocrite lecteur, mon semblable, mon frere’) I apologise in advance. I know that people take posting here very personally – I have done. But all of us – Jews, Muslims, immigrants, women, the disabled, the elderly, the artists, the dope smokers, the retired, the unemployed, the anarchists, protesters, dissenters, gay people, disabled people – are under attack somewhere every minute of every day. Get together.
The Egyptian Coup and Its Washington Paymasters
by Ron Jacobs / August 17th, 2013
As we watch the Egyptian military and police forces kill and maim their fellow Egyptians we can wonder if Washington will cut off all aid to the Egyptian junta. That’s what it is, a junta. Even if it was a progressive military coup (which it is not), it would still be in power because of a coup. Therefore, it is a junta.
Democracy in the modern world is deceptive. In a true expression of its origins in the bourgeois revolutions of the 18th century, modern day democracy represents one class in every society where it exists. That class is the current version of the bourgeoisie. In the United States, this means the government represents the wealthy and the middle class. In other nations that are nominal democracies, the class makeup of the represented is essentially the same. Naturally, this represented class makes certain its military and police forces are on the same side as they are, even though the rank and file in these agencies are often from the working and lumpen classes.
[..]
The revolution in Egypt is at a crossroads. The forces of reaction have laid another of their cards on the table. It is one of the bloodiest cards every played in Egypt’s recent history. Once the Muslim Brotherhood is crushed, the opposition forces secular and religious, leftist and liberal may be once again under the boot of the Egyptian generals, wondering how they could have supported the coup in the first place. Only those who have refused to support the Morsi regime at any time can claim revolutionary foresight. The junta’s paymasters in Washington, Cairo, and beyond have much to answer for. It’s time we demand the answers.
http://dissidentvoice.org/2013/08/the-egyptian-coup-and-its-washington-paymasters/
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/17/egypt-army-attack-mosque
@ Macky
just to tease out your feelings about soft drugs a little.
If you consider that my suggestion that Ben posts under the influence of the weed is a slur intended to diminish him, then that must mean, logically, that you consider smoking weed to be a dishonorable or reprehensible activity.
Is that correct – do you consider smoking weed to be dishonorable or reprehensible?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/04/tawakkul-karman-egypt-coup_n_3703435.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000009
CAIRO — Officials say that Yemen’s Nobel Peace Prize winner Tawakkul Karman has been denied entry into Egypt after she landed at Cairo airport.
Karman, the first Arab woman to win the Nobel Peace prize, has stated her opposition to the military coup that ousted fellow Islamist Mohammed Morsi on July 3 after days of mass protests in which millions of Egyptians demanded that he step down.
She said she had intended to join the larger of two sit-in protests by Morsi supporters in the Egyptian capital.
The Cairo airport officials said Tawakkul was sent back on the Sunday flight that brought her to Cairo from the United Arab Emirates.
“If you consider that my suggestion that Ben posts under the influence of the weed is a slur intended to diminish him, then that must mean, logically, that you consider smoking weed to be a dishonorable or reprehensible activity”
– and of course, it was intended to be patronising and dismissive and yet again Habbakuk, you show that we are what we attempt to oppose.
@ Technicolour
“Suppose Habbakuk is ‘hasbara’. Suppose he is getting paid to post.”
_______________
Neither nor, dear girl.
But tell me, us, Habbakuk, do you really, really care about Macky’s views on soft drugs? Thought not. From what, I wonder, are you trying to detract attention? Washington’s support for the bloody massacre in Egypt perhaps? Honestly, I do wish people weren’t so transparent.
ps thanks for link, Mary.
Sergeant Technicolour!
Please let Corporal Macky answer for himself! How do you expect him ever to acquire the initiative and knowledge he needs to be promoted if you and the other sergeants keep helping him out?
@ Technicolour
“But tell me, us, Habbakuk, do you really, really care about Macky’s views on soft drugs? Thought not.”
_______________
Then you think wrongly; I am most interested in Corporal Macky’s views.
It would be helpful if you stopped interrupting so that I could hear them from him.
Thanks!
Aide-de-camp Habbakuk; I am now equally convinced you are female 😉 So I will just give you a little kiss and say, please don’t worry about the people on this board: I am sure they are fine without anyone’s else’s concern. They are here, and engaged, and thinking, and that is a pretty marvellous thing, under current circumstances.
x
“The contributor being Habbabkuk for clarity as the page has turned.
Generally speaking, the contributions of the following on the previous page have done little to enhance the knowledge of the reader or to advance human understanding.
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___________________
As Jon has said, please refrain from talking about other posters and focus on the issues. Thank you.
Tech
Now you’re characterizing the problems here as an expectation of agreement amongst everyone of similar political persuasion.
That’s never been the case here, as you well know.
The problem is people deliberately setting out to disrupt the free flow of discussion.
And please, many of us here including me have engaged the habbies just to see was there anything genuine there. Facts and arguments don’t work with people like that. The best you’ll get is that they run away, but mostly it’s just abuse.
All anyone wants is that the feckers address the issues.
I’m quite happy with a little bit of abuse as flourish to a winning argument, but mostly all they’ve got is abuse and losing arguments.
What habby is attempting to do is pure personal labelling. That’s the common theme in her posts. And we know where labelling leads, although it is unfortunately all too common amongst the identity brigade. Villager tries it too of course though much less successfully, for obvious reasons.
A change of position on support of “democracy” in Egypt?
These thugs are the very same who set out to legitimise a military coup that was engineered in US and put into force in Egypt. If I recollect correctly I was denounced as an Islam-ist and a legion of many, who also goes to the pub and gets drunk and comes back here to make trouble.
Jack in the box is an apt description because when it comes to the Muslim affairs you know jacks shit mate.
The question that ought to be asked is; will Egypt descend into chaos or will the repression and military pressures on the population be so great as to subdue the very people whom they are supposed to be protecting.
Clearly Libya and Syria options cannot be entertained for Egypt, it is too near to zionistan. However for certain Mubarak MKII will be a lot more credible alternative and already the MB are denounced as trouble makers and are being rounded up and put into jail. Democratic indeed, all in the best possible taste!!!!
Sad and sick America:
“Sandy Rios of the American Family Association today said she is “very grateful” for the action taken by the Egyptian military against the Muslim Brotherhood, including the massacre that left over 600 people in Egypt dead, and added that she also believes Muslims should not have First Amendment rights in the United States.”
“The talk show host added that the massacre victims weren’t “innocent” and that she is “applauding” their actions against the Brotherhood”
“Yesterday, Frank Gaffney—who also backs restrictions on First Amendment rights for Muslims—told Rios that “this bloodshed was probably necessary to give Egypt a chance for a better future.”
“Anti-Muslim blogger Pamela Geller also added her two cents: The Egyptian government had to clean out the Muslim Brotherhood’s terror camps — there were independent entities preparing for civil war where people were being tortured and murdered.”
“Obama was wrong to criticize the Egyptian government while expressing no solidarity with the soldiers and police officers who were brutally murdered by the Muslim Brotherhood. Did anyone think the global jihadist Muslim Brotherhood was going to go quietly?”
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/rios-and-gaffney-approve-egypt-massacre-oppose-first-amendment-rights-muslims
Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)
17 Aug, 2013 – 8:23 pm
“Princess Diana was murdered”
“It is deplorable that when the NHS and public services are being squeezed, millions of GBP should be spent as a result of lunatics venting off about conspiracies…”
Habbabkuk, I don’t know any more than most people about Diana’s death; we only have the “official story.”
But if the Met has received credible information that could give greater insight into what happened, do you not think that they should investigate it?