The Respectability of Torture
St Mary’s University College, Thurs 1st August, 7.30pm
Craig Murray, former British ambassador to Uzbekistan, was a whistleblower who was removed from his ambassadorial post by Tony Blair for exposing the Tashkent regime‟s use of rape and systematic torture, including the boiling to death of political opponents. He has also spoken out against Central Asia‟s appalling dictatorships, regimes which are allies of the West, involved in torture and rendition, and was accused of threatening MI6‟s relationship with the CIA. Now a human rights activist, author and broadcaster, he outlines the dynamics of torture and the hypocrisy of incriminated Western governments.
My first public appearance for a while will be in Belfast on 1 August where I shall be giving a talk. Long term readers of this blog will recall that, while my focus is largely on international affairs, the domestic political achievements I most hope to see are a united Ireland and an independent Scotland.
Re Diana – any murder plan involving a car crash would have had contingency planning for what might require to be done in case of survival of the target. Including planting “innocent” operators to “finish off” the job after the crash. I thought every second of the events after the crash right up to her death at the hospital were inquired into, including ALL the players involved – and their “innocence”. The only dodgy item that remained was the impossible carbon monoxide levels in the drunk drivers blood sample, everything else was ticked off and Al-Fayad had himself conceded, so any new “diary” evidence cannot overturn that conclusive examination of the physical facts after the crash till her death at the hospital. Unless there was an invisible mossad agent in the ambulance,like the one who almost chocked Bush in the White House with that pretzel in the throat !
Sofia, in answer to your questions:
1) For example, Egypt, a tough restoration of democracy or a proxy US/Israeli coup?
It is a coup, but it’s much more complex than simply being an action driven by the USA/Israel. The peoples of Arab countries do have agency. They are ruled/led by various forms of fascist.
2) US donated cluster munitions scattered over south Lebanon, the seeds of democracy or a war crime?
War crime, obviously. Your question is rhetorical.
3) Israel, a beacon of democracy in a savage region or a brutal, expansionist apartheid state?
Both.
4) Why do you get so bothered about “narrative” that you get all rude and dismissive?
Not me.
“Unless there was an invisible mossad agent in the ambulance,like the one who almost chocked Bush in the White House with that pretzel in the throat !” Krishna-whatsit
If it was assassination, I think the most likely contender would be the British intelligence services, with French acquiescence. It is impossible to overstate how defensive against any kind of threat some people in high positions in this country are about the monarchy. They would kill to protect it as an institution. Diana herself feared precisely that outcome and she knew the institution from the inside.
But of course, this will rage on and on. We will never know for sure.
@Suhayl – that was a frivolous comment to end the conspiracy theorising. If every second and the players in it from the time of the crash to her demise in the hospital have been inquired into, then all doubt was removed, even Al-Fayad conceded. Unless the random ambulance crew,”innocent” chance doctorwho arrived on the scene,etc – all have been mysteriously disappearing since.
@ Suhayl. 9.03am
My question, “Why do you get so bothered about “narrative” that you get all rude and dismissive?” was for Villager, not you.
Your posts consistently show me you can make a point without having to be rude and dismissive. Aside from your alleged chemical habits, you are one of my role-models.
Now watch the video an be warned!
Thanks, Sofia, much appreciated! Wrt the chemical issue, please see my post at 07:50am today.
It’s a complex issue, though, when one considers for example that jazz music was deeply influenced by such triggers. The book to which I referred, ‘Dreaming Albion’ analyses this complexity.
Worth a listen. Read the blurb here. Not preachy but inspirational.
BBC Producer, Rev Clair Jaquiss reflects on her experience at the Othona Community
A place to be
The community has been there on the Blackwater Estuary since 1946 when the Rev’d Norman Motley was inspired to find somewhere where people could reflect on what had happened in the Second World War and could ask the big questions in an open and accepting atmosphere. It became a place of reconciliation and discussion which continues to this day. How then was this “A place to be”?
/..
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b038bmlc
A preceding programme ‘Sunday’ is also worth listening to.
18/08/2013
Duration: 45 minutes
First broadcast:Sunday 18 August 2013
The Archbishop of York John Sentamu has ordered a review of files on dead clergy from his diocese to see whether any of them may have abused children. Edward Stourton talks Anne Lawrence, who speaks for the Campaign to stop Church Child Abuse.
Bob Walker continues his three hundred mile journey across Turkey, following in the footsteps of St.Paul.
Zoroastrianism, one of the world’s oldest monotheistic religions was founded in Iran around 3,500 years ago. It now has 6,000 followers in the UK and this Sunday they celebrate their New Year. Edward talks to Lord Karan Bilimoria CBE, the first Zoroastrian Parsi to sit in the House of Lords, about his campaign to gain more recognition for the contribution this small community makes to society.
Phil Mercer reports from Australia on plans by the new Anglican Archbishop of Sydney, Glenn Davies, to use his role to lobby against tough new legislative proposals aimed at asylum seekers.
As the campaign for the canonisation of GK Chesterton, gathers momentum, Professor Alison Milbank, author of ‘Chesterton and Tolkien as Theologians’ talks to Edward about the qualities of this prolific writer and Catholic convert.
Can Egypt ever be reconciled with itself ? It’s a question Edward discusses with His Grace Bishop Angaelos, General Bishop of the Coptic Orthodox Church in the United Kingdom, BBC’s Middle East Editor Jeremy Bowen and Tariq Ramadan, Professor of Contemporary Islamic Studies at Oxford University.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b038bhzh
@Suhayl
Re “Dreaming Albion.”
Yes, an interesting book for sure!
Clearly the cultural changes of the 1960s, regarding music, art, the written-word and more were radically altered with the advent of LSD.
I would love to see some footage of LSD-fueled squaddies staggering around the green and pleasant woods of England. It’s a delicious irony that what was hoped would create super-warriors turned out to short-circuit soldiering abilities.
No surprise that a those who steer our deeply delusional culture promote a drug like alcohol that deeply dulls the senses, and keeps the society half asleep, precisely where they want us.
In the current world where freedom of speech, universal human rights and privacy of the individual are regarded as inconvenient things of the past it is no surprise that substances which can so radically change perspectives are banned.
‘Police are investigating a sensational claim that the SAS was involved in the death of Princess Diana, reports Sean Rayment.
The allegation emerged at the second court martial of Sergeant Danny Nightingale, who was found guilty of illegally possessing a gun and ammunition.
It came in a letter to the elite unit’s commanding officer by the parents-in-law of a special forces sniper, known only as Soldier N, who was Sgt Nightingale’s former housemate and a key witness for the prosecution.
The letter said Solider N boasted the SAS “was behind Princess Diana’s death”.
The Ministry of Defence, the Royal Military Police and the Service Prosecuting Authority have known of its existence and the claim since it was sent in September 2011.
The seven-page hand-written letter – a copy of which has been seen by the Sunday People – also makes allegations over Soldier N’s behaviour towards his wife and her family following the collapse of the couple’s marriage.
It is understood that the SAS passed the letter to the Service Prosecuting Authority prior to the start of the Sgt Nightingale trial.
All references to the paramilitary force were removed by the SPA before it released the document to the court.’
/..
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/princess-diana-death-cops-probe-2179191#ixzz2cJKs26eo
Interesting, Flaming June. Thanks again. One suspects that ‘Soldier N’ will be dismissed as a ‘nutter’. But you know, anyone who knows SAS veterans will know that some of them they will claim that some of what they do is commit murder. So we ought not to dismiss it out of hand.
Forthcoming book on ‘Diana Slay’, by Alan Power.
“The “hit” on the tragic princess was hatched by “The Increment,” a top secret unit of the British Secret Intelligence Service, or MI6, Power said he believes, based on his 10-year investigation into the British government’s own inquest evidence and his interviews with former SAS officers.” [from article linked to, below]
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/new_probe_in_diana_slay_Lzp02M4GizAKC4gOb8ECVO
“Dreoilin I was well aware that Fred and John Goss had raised the Diana story. I was asking a question and posted the Sky report in full. Hope that meets with your approval.”
I was simply pointing out, Mary, that Habbabkuk probably had a lot longer to consider his response to the Diana story than you implied.
“You seem to take a great interest in my activity on this blog. Leave me out please.”
I take as much, and no more, interest in your posts than I do in everyone else’s. When I come here, I read all the comments. Including the ones that are of no great interest to me.
“Did you see my later post about the choice of pathologist by the establishment in the Diana/Dodi inquests and by Grieve when he squelched the doctors’ request for a proper inquest for Dr Kelly?”
I did. But apparently you’d prefer if I didn’t.
“I will resume use of my original name on the first anniversary of the troll’s appearance in November 2012.”
The drama of it!
“It was decided months ago that he fitted the description and purpose of a troll.”
Oh, was there a poll? I didn’t see it.
I didn’t see an announcement by Jon either.
————-
Herbie,
I don’t recall people using this place as a chat-room. But perspectives differ.
Pm
“Amid all the squabbling, something on here seems to have attracted the attention of the stasi. Are we pen testing?”
What’s all that about?
Very awkward and oft ignored fact: Diana was pregnant when she died.
Here’s what a leading Us journalist thinks should be done to Julian Assange.
http://archive.is/KtnuJ
To be fair he has deleted the tweet, hence the archive link
I wonder how “Time magazine” will respond.
Snap Sofia!
I was just looking at that on Twitter.
https://twitter.com/YourAnonNews/status/368899930456207360
It’s been preserved. He won’t be allowed to forget it in a hurry.
Thanks for the link Flaming June. It is telling that:
“The assessment will be carried out by officers from the Specialist Crime and Operations command.”
So totally independent then.
Sofia, just shows what a sick world we (and particularly Grunwald) live in.
This comments section has surely become 100% social anthropology. It may also be amusing. Stand-up surrealists may at this very moment be studying it.
I SO WISH I could read the information that has been passed on to Scotland
Yard about Princess Diana. I can’t, but I can torture myself by reading endlessly about how no-one else (here) can read it either.
Médecins Sans Frontières to Pull Out of Somalia
“NAIROBI, Kenya — One of the world’s most tenacious humanitarian groups said Wednesday that it could no longer endure the risks that come with operating in Somalia, in a move that underscored the continued violence in the country despite recent steps toward stability.
“After suffering years of attacks on its staff members in Somalia, the international medical charity Doctors Without Borders said that it would shut down all operations in the country after 22 years of working there.”
Full text
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/15/world/africa/doctors-without-borders-to-pull-out-of-somalia.html?_r=0
Fedup, your attacks on Suhayl continue to misrepresent his perspective, and do nothing but underscore your support for Islamic governance, as well as, I suspect, slightly revealing what you think about LBGT rights in general.
I don’t think I did get any opinion from you, despite putting it to you many times, about whether the second revolution was sufficient in democratic force to be reasonably considered as fairly ousting the Brotherhood. Do note that this is a fully separate question from whether the army should have seized power (in my view, no) or should have launched a bloody crackdown (again, no).
It would be my hope that supporters of the Brotherhood inside Egypt recognise the strength of feeling that removed their party, and support fresh elections, which need to happen quickly. If they are convinced that there is still support for the MB at the polls then people will vote them in again, either with Morsi or a different leader. My guess is that in a fair election, support for MB has collapsed to a much smaller group.
The quotes from anti-MB sources I supplied yesterday are dreadfully sad if true – some Egyptians have become so used to authoritarianism that they will cheer on the deaths of their fellow countrymen and women.
Anyway Fedup, over to you. I really do want to understand your perspective, and thus far I have not been able to get an accurate view of it.
@Glenn_uk – Very true. Our gold too.These old imperialist habits need to be gently put to bed.
@Fred “So what you are effectively saying is that the Welsh are the Master Race superior to everyone else”
…err…I didn’t effectively say anything of the sorts. Perhaps you’re mixing the right to self determination/civic nationalism of countries like Wales and Scotland with the deeply racist eugenicist Anglo Zionist imperialists who actually do believe in the concept of a master race?
Or maybe you have trouble with the concept of equality between countries?
As Alex Salmond nicely put it:
“England stands to lose a surly lodger, and gain a good neighbour”
Ben Franklin
18 Aug, 2013 – 3:05 am Good words dude, a shift in consciousness is key – commendable – spanking.
@Suhayl.
Returning to my, as yet, unanswered questions to Villager on the topic of “narrative” that he/she brought up yesterday.
The cluster bomb question is not really so rhetorical. Us donated cluster munitions scattered over south Lebanon, the seeds of democracy or a war crime?
South Lebanon was so saturated with these bombs in September 2006 that by mid October that year 45,000 unexploded bomblets had been cleared and destroyed and hundreds of thousands more still littered the countryside. When they fall into vegetation they can remain undiscovered for years. So I think it is fair inconceivable that they won’t be killing an maiming, mostly farmers and children for years to come.
http://electronicintifada.net/content/israels-cluster-bombs-continue-kill-and-maim-lebanon/10376
I feel that these stories, which get so little airing in the corporate media, are important pieces of the overall picture.
Sofia/Dreoilin: yep, one forgets that a few people not only think like that but spread it. It reminds me of Bradley Manning’s ‘apology’ highlighted a few thousand comments back: he has been subjected to ‘cruel and unusual’ torture for years, which would be enough to make anyone say anything, but is anyone else highlighting it? Apart from the poster here (I forget who you were – John Goss? Anyway, thanks).
Fedup; thanks-ish for reply. I share your horror, but most people do not want to kill Muslims, or anyone else. And I don’t really think you believe that this board is a seething mass of anti-Muslim hate. Look forward to your reply to Jon.
FJ: re name change – yes, I know, but it was obvious pretty quickly that didn’t work. It’s interesting that people’s styles are so singular. As Dreoilin says, Villager and Habbabkuk have very different styles.
Herbie, mild insults are fine, so please carry on. I put a little smiley winky thing after my comment to Habbabkuk because I have no idea whether they are male or female, of course. So apologies if I got your approach wrong. I do not think of ‘female’ as a derogatory term, no. Or ‘male’ for that matter.
Glen: was recently surrounded by Welsh children all speaking Welsh, which they now have to learn at school. Although their parents were looking puzzled, it was delightful; like being surrounded by slightly croaky angels 🙂 At the same time English people I met who live there were complaining about a rising anti-English sentiment which stops them from getting jobs. Have no idea how representative they were but felt sad for them, and sorry for the inevitable rise in nationalism caused by a Westminster parliament which for decades has been making decisions rightly loathed by vast swathes of the electorate – as well as England’s awful history in those places. But what indeed, as Chris Jones asks, will become of England now? I have a feeling it needs the balance and character of the surrounding lands; without them ~
Brian, glad you liked the suggestions. Dreoilin, I nicked them from you 🙂
Is Diana, poor woman, another distraction? I remember a friend ringing after the C4 documentary years ago and saying ‘she was murdered, then’ with due horror. Can’t think of many stories more guaranteed to get the British public upset, anyway.
Social anthropology it is!
Informative, detailed website, ‘British Army Killings’. This is the tip of the iceberg. Much of the work of Special Forces – if you look, you’ll see that most of the killings on this website are not done by Special Forces, but by regular regiments sometimes working undercover – remains deeply hidden.
http://www.britisharmykillings.org.uk/category/50/FRU–MI5-Agents
Feds not happy with :lavabit owner
http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/08/13/20008036-lavabitcom-owner-i-could-be-arrested-for-resisting-surveillance-order?lite
Mark; There’s only one dude, dude.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Big_Lebowski
I don’t know whether or not Diana was assassinated. But I have sufficient knowledge of the British state to doubt the veracity of much official narrative on this and much else.
From the above mentioned ‘British Army Killings’ website:
“Allegations of the British Army Force Research Unit collusion in the murder of UK citizens, including the murder of human rights lawyer Patrick Finucane comes from the British Police Commissioner Sir John Stevens who conducted the official enquiry into British Army Collusion.”
So, presumably, Commissioner John Stevens of the Metropolitan Police is also a “conspiracy theorist”.
Look, the British Army/Special Branch and MI5 conspired to murder, and murdered, hundreds of British civilians – most of them, not IRA members – in Northern Ireland. This is established fact. We haven’t even begun to talk about the SAS and SBS. So, surely, the onus ought to be on those believe the state to be innocent of committing yet another murder of a British civilian.
Re. the De Silva report into the murder of lawyer, Pat Finucane
“On 12 December 2012, the government released the Pat Finucane Review, the results of the inquiry conducted by Sir Desmond de Silva. The report documented extensive evidence of State collaboration with Loyalist gunmen, including the selection of targets, and concluded that “there was a wilful and abject failure by successive governments to provide the clear policy and legal framework necessary for agent-handling operations to take place effectively within the law.” Prime Minister Cameron acknowledged “shocking levels of collusion” and issued an apology. However, Finucane’s family denounced the report as a “sham” and a “suppression of the truth” into which they were allowed no input. In May 2013, state documents dated 2011 disclosed through the courts revealed that the Prime Minister David Cameron’s former director of security and intelligence, Ciarán Martin had warned him that senior members of Margaret Thatcher’s government may have been aware of “a systemic problem with loyalist agents” at the time of Pat Finucane’s death but had done nothing about it.” [from Wikipedia]
“Shocking levels of collusion”, David Cameron, PM of the UK, 2013.
So, presumably, the Prime Minister of the UK, David Cameron also is a “conspiracy theorist” when he admits “shocking levels of collusion” b/w the British state and paramilitary terrorists in committing the murder of British citizens on British soil.
The importance of the Diana case – and the reason, I would argue, that it is not a celebrity distraction – is that it suggests that many people in Britain find it entirely credible that the British state precisely because they have murdered so many other British citizens. I believe this was the real, underlying reason for the hysterical outpouring of mass grief that accompanied her death. Yes, it was stoked by the media. But there was a hard, underlying rubric of suspicion which drove it. Now, Blair invaded Iraq on false pretenses and broke international law. So we see individual assassinations and then mass murder, perpetrated by the state. We see that the rule of law has been fatally eroded and indeed the very basis and legitimacy of the UK state is called into question.
And that is why I regard the death of Princess Diana as politically important.
The above (penultimate paragraph, 3:24pm today) should read: “… many people in Britain find it entirely credible that the British state murdered Diana precisely because they have murdered so many other British citizens.”