Feile An Phobail Belfast 4110


The Respectability of Torture


St Mary’s University College, Thurs 1st August, 7.30pm

 

Craig Murray, former British ambassador to Uzbekistan, was a whistleblower who was removed from his ambassadorial post by Tony Blair for exposing the Tashkent regime‟s use of rape and systematic torture, including the boiling to death of political opponents. He has also spoken out against Central Asia‟s appalling dictatorships, regimes which are allies of the West, involved in torture and rendition, and was accused of threatening MI6‟s relationship with the CIA. Now a human rights activist, author and broadcaster, he outlines the dynamics of torture and the hypocrisy of incriminated Western governments.

 

My first public appearance for a while will be in Belfast on 1 August where I shall be giving a talk.  Long term readers of this blog will recall that, while my focus is largely on international affairs, the domestic political achievements I most hope to see are a united Ireland and an independent Scotland.


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4,110 thoughts on “Feile An Phobail Belfast

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  • Chris Jones

    @Fred “Your devolved parliaments would actually give you more self determination than the English rather than less though wouldn’t it?”

    Yes that is very true – although devolution is not the same as self determination and the robber barrons of the Crown will hold on to dear life to their economic and energy levers. But I would fuly support an English parliament if the people of England want it.

    I very much agree that many parts of Enland and elsewhere are suffering too because of the draining of wealth to London and the South east of England. Areas of west Wales and the Valleys region for example have a GDP figure which is 70% of the EU average while Inner London is a staggering 328%, poorer than than parts of Bulgaria, Romania and Poland, and poorer than the whole of the Czech Republic (80), Slovenia (84) and Slovakia (84) – all countries that were part of the East European Communist bloc that collapsed more than 20 years ago.

    http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/welsh-valleys-bulgaria-romania-comparisons-2525215

  • Chris Jones

    @Herbie – America is not a democracy,it’s a Republic. There’s a massive difference

  • Phil

    Chris Jones 18 Aug, 2013 – 6:33 pm
    “is not a democracy,it’s a Republic. There’s a massive difference”

    Massive? The behaviour of a society these days, in matters of most importance around trade/foreign policy etc, will not be determined by that difference. I suggest the difference is minimal and technical.

  • Herbie

    Well, Phil.

    I wouldn’t expect any system to last forever. That’s not a very useful test.

    I’m merely saying that even nutters can produce acceptable outcomes. You work with what you have. You can’t dream up systems. They’re a product of your material.

    We went through all this shit in NI, a place crawling with nutters, and the outcome is much better in terms of civil liberties and representation than anything in England.

  • Phil

    @fedup
    “why would koreans give transparently korean propaganda to some foreign blogger to release?”

    Sorry I realised the stupidity of my questions moments after posting it.

  • Fred

    “I very much agree that many parts of Enland and elsewhere are suffering too because of the draining of wealth to London and the South east of England. Areas of west Wales and the Valleys region for example have a GDP figure which is 70% of the EU average while Inner London is a staggering 328%, poorer than than parts of Bulgaria, Romania and Poland, and poorer than the whole of the Czech Republic (80), Slovenia (84) and Slovakia (84) – all countries that were part of the East European Communist bloc that collapsed more than 20 years ago.”

    Cost of living

    Wales has some of the lowest living costs in the United Kingdom and most of the population enjoy a high standard of living.

    Living costs in Wales do depend on your location, employment and circumstances. However, historically Wales has had lower costs on items such as accommodation, travel, food, entertainment, shopping and services. Property prices, council tax and basic expenses all generally fall below the UK average.

    According to Stats Wales, the average gross weekly earnings in Wales in 2010 was £516.

    Seems quite a difference in the standard of living between Wales and the South East of England too.

    http://www.wales.com/en/content/cms/english/live/cost_of_living/cost_of_living.aspx

  • Chris Jones

    @Herbie – Far from being nutters they produced one of the best constitutions in the world in my opinion.

    Maybe ‘two mole’ Prince Charles would tickle your fancy a bit more..

  • Chris Jones

    @Phil – I would argue that the difference is of course technical but that technical difference has been crucial..not sure how long it will last at current rates but it is important

  • Phil

    Chris Jones 18 Aug, 2013 – 7:13 pm
    “Far from being nutters they [US] produced one of the best constitutions in the world.”

    What are you basing that on? Cause it certainly isn’t a results and outcomes driven analysis.

  • Chris Jones

    @Fred – I’m not sure what is the point you’re making. You’ve quoted pan Wales figures from a Visit Wales site (Welsh toursit board) – they are paid to market Wales…

    Have you a direct link to what the average gross weekly earnings for the south east of England are in comparison? I’d be genuinely interested to know

  • Phil

    Chris Jones 18 Aug, 2013 – 7:13 pm
    “Far from being nutters they [US] produced one of the best constitutions in the world.”

    Sorry my last response was even more rubbish than this one:

    It might be one of the best but it is still useless at taming the worse excesses of empire. So nothing to cling to.

  • Chris Jones

    @Phil – Oh you know – the notion of inalianable rights, life ,liberty and the pursuit of happiness. And of course the deterrence to mob rule and the corruption of the democratic system

  • fedup

    You’re certainly ahead of us on that. We no longer have any vehicle for transformation at all, or rather, we’ve too many vehicles running about every which way, crashing into one another.

    Herbie, you have hit the nail on the head and perspicaciously summed up the debate. As we debate, the mid east is in the grips of further deaths, and more destruction to ensure the longevity of the constructs of oppression for the perceived benefits of the Western corporates.

    The people caught up in this mess in the mid east lack any kind of organisations that can constitute an effective opposition, to their tyrannical modes of governance that mistreats them and has blighted their lives. This leaving the only effective organisation for any opposition to be found in the religious domain that effectively means Islamic institutions set up in the countries in the mid east.

    However, it should be noted that concurrently some of these religious organisations have also been co opted into the arrangements of power in certain other countries in the mid east, notable among these; Saudi, UAE, Qatar, Kuwait. Therefore any potential unrest caused by the other competing religious organisations in neighbouring countries (Bahrain, Egypt, Iraq, ….) is an alarming development that cannot be allowed to come to fruition and change the current dynamics of the near feudal structures in that area.

    As you have rightly pointed out; “you work with what you have”. These poor bastards have only their god and his word to rely on, and get through their daily drudgery and misery they have come to call life. Alas this is not to the liking of the so called liberal intelligentsia in our neck of the woods either. These so called liberals have replaced the atavistic imperial attitudes of “civilising the savages”, and replaced it with a convoluted interpretations of “democracy”, none being so apparent then the following;

    The evidence suggests that, contrary to establishing democracy, the Muslim Brotherhood Govt not only continued and intensified Mubarak’s rule-by-secret-policeman’s diktat, but also expeditiously was enacting a clerical fascist state on the Egyptian people. They proved unable to rise above the totalitarian template of their Islamist ideology…..

    Utter nonsensical bollocks filled with labels and sound bites, reflecting the worst of the propaganda shite spewed by the relevant organs; 24/7/52, deliberately ignoring the actualities and bloodshed in Egypt.

    Herbie, Phil, Chris this is the very first time on this board in my experience there has been a suggestion of an explorations of an Islamic system of governance without the usual “epithets” getting thrown around to dismiss any alternative other than the flag waving apple pie loving genuflecting “democracy” models. I thank you for your contributions.

  • Phil

    Chris Jones 18 Aug, 2013 – 7:26 pm
    ” the notion of inalianable rights, life ,liberty and the pursuit of happiness. And of course the deterrence to mob rule and the corruption of the democratic system”

    Yes but those are words. Do you really consider the us constitution has detered the corruption of democracy?

  • Chris Jones

    @Phil – there is that granted – corruption has crawled in in the last 60 or so years especially but at least the constitution can hold those these things to account if there are enough good people ready to stand up for it

  • Phil

    Chris Jones 18 Aug, 2013 – 7:32 pm
    “there is that granted – corruption has crawled in in the last 60 or so years especially but at least the constitution can hold those these things to account if there are enough good people ready to stand up for it”

    There is a convincing argument that the senate was devised as a house to empower the wealthy classes thus subverting democracy from the go. Maybe ben or someelse more knowledgable than me will chime in on this.

    But that is besides my point. What I don’t understand is the argument that ignores outcomes. Look at what we have. It is a disaster that behaves no differently from an empire without a constitution. To say “it’s just not quite going right but it should work” is not enough.

  • Fred

    “I’m not sure what is the point you’re making. You’ve quoted pan Wales figures from a Visit Wales site (Welsh toursit board) – they are paid to market Wales… ”

    Typical Nationalist, anyone giving inconvenient facts must be biassed.

    “Have you a direct link to what the average gross weekly earnings for the south east of England are in comparison? I’d be genuinely interested to know”

    Nope, try google.

  • Phil

    @Chris – further to my above:

    Of course the us constitution built upon the magna carter. So we have the uk and then the us empires boasting about their wondefrul legal foundations whilst raping the world. It is a nonsense. The proof is in the pudding not revered documents.

  • Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    “There is a convincing argument that the senate was devised as a house to empower the wealthy classes thus subverting democracy from the go. Maybe ben or someelse more knowledgable than me will chime in on this.”

    I didn’t want to interrupt. Phil the theory behind the two— House of Representatives/Senate–Is that the House, with many more members less seasoned in the process is a hotbed of emotion)hot cup of tea) and Senate is the cooling saucer. Idea being; making laws should be a slow, methodical process to avoid social disorganization enacted in the heat of present emotions, and then rescinded when it doesn’t prove workable, or even Constitutional.

    Of course they are giving the Legislators credit for being honest brokers.

  • doug scorgie

    Villager
    17 Aug, 2013 – 3:37 pm
    To Jon:

    “I am no diplomat so not mincing my words. The truth is sometimes hard to swallow, but you should let people express themselves freely, in your words, “regardless of whether the hearer finds them objectionable.”

    Your tactic Villager is to demand freedom of speech regardless of what is said so that you and others here can attack certain posters with impunity; the purpose being to upset those certain posters to a point where they are intimidated into keeping quiet or reducing their contributions on subjects you don’t like.

    That is an attack on freedom of speech in itself.

    You, and other clowns posting on this blog, need to engage more in legitimate discussions of controversial subjects instead of using diversion; distraction; obfuscation and personal attacks simply because you have no argument to put forward.

  • doug scorgie

    Póló
    17 Aug, 2013 – 5:37 pm

    “Craig”

    “Give us another post, like a good man.”

    “Even “Hello World” will do to make a break in the comments.”

    Póló, why don’t you engage in a topic that interests you?

    Why don’t you put forward a point of view that could lead to a new discussion?

  • Phil

    ben
    “Senate is the cooling saucer”

    Sure but I recall that the senate was set up with the specific aim to retain the final say in the hands of the wealthy. This was a stated aim spoken by some founders. The senate use to meet in secret for chrissakes. I will need to relook this up for more detail but a simple question will make my point.

    Has there ever been a poor senater?

  • Phil

    What % of sentaors have not been stinking rich?

    Somewhere between zero and zero. It was set up by the rich and has always been exclusively populated by the rich.

    That is not a democracy with a strong constitution.

  • Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_sessions_of_the_United_States_Senate

    They still meet in the dark of night, like when they vote themselves a raise in pay.

    Being rich already puts a candidate in the catbird-seat; greater circle of powered acquaintances with money of their own for campaign donations. It’s not fair that the rich can afford bizness class on long flights with plenty of legroom/space to avoid blood-clots. The poor just have to live with the blockage.

    We vote for these people because they want the job, and that should probably be a disqualifying feature.

  • Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    Averages are virtually meaningless, but not all are rich.

    [hide]Top 10 Senators in 2011
    Senator Average Net Worth
    John Kerry $235,976,804
    Mark Warner $228,129,609
    Herb Kohl $171,257,008
    Jay Rockefeller $102,706,012
    Richard Blumenthal $100,190,174
    Frank R. Lautenberg $87,557,109
    Dianne Feinstein $70,725,124
    Ron Wyden $38,370,525
    Claire McCaskill $21,837,606
    Kay R. Hagan $17,833,270

    [hide]Bottom 10 Senators in 2011
    Senator Average Net Worth
    Saxby Chambliss $402,006
    John Thune $345,008
    Deb Fischer $323,501
    Roger Wicker $299,508
    Susan Collins $205,002
    Mike Lee $111,002
    Jeff Flake $32,500
    Mark Kirk $17,501
    Jim DeMint $16,001
    Marco Rubio -$45,494

  • Chris Jones

    @Fred “Typical Nationalist, anyone giving inconvenient facts must be biassed”

    – Oh Fred, you dissapoint me. I have no problem with any facts. I merely asked for a link to back up your statement so that I could take a genuinely interested look. It rather makes me think you just made it up.I don’t see what your touchiness is based on – England’s poverty bothers me as much as my own country’s.Trying to whittle it down to ‘nationalist’ name calling is very lazy. Aren’t you yourself a nationalist albeit a British one? (and rather a non tolerant one by the sounds of it) A shame that you feel the need for such grumpiness but there we are.

  • Phil

    Yes you need money to become any politician in the US these days. What I am suggesting is far more seditious because it shatters the illusion that all we need to do is correct perversions of an otherwise fine system.

    I am suggesting the senate was expressly created to retain power in the hands of the wealthy. It was set up by the wealthy and has only ever been populated by the wealthy. Such simple observations marry with the governments behaviour and shatter all the verbosity that talks of democracy.

  • Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    “I am suggesting the senate was expressly created to retain power in the hands of the wealthy.”

    Phil; I am not arguing that you are incorrect, but do you have something to replace? Maybe a Benevolent Dictatorship because the ambitiously wealthy have always held all the cards?

    Compare and contrast Parliament.

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