Feile An Phobail Belfast 4110

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The Respectability of Torture

St Mary’s University College, Thurs 1st August, 7.30pm

 

Craig Murray, former British ambassador to Uzbekistan, was a whistleblower who was removed from his ambassadorial post by Tony Blair for exposing the Tashkent regime‟s use of rape and systematic torture, including the boiling to death of political opponents. He has also spoken out against Central Asia‟s appalling dictatorships, regimes which are allies of the West, involved in torture and rendition, and was accused of threatening MI6‟s relationship with the CIA. Now a human rights activist, author and broadcaster, he outlines the dynamics of torture and the hypocrisy of incriminated Western governments.

 

My first public appearance for a while will be in Belfast on 1 August where I shall be giving a talk.  Long term readers of this blog will recall that, while my focus is largely on international affairs, the domestic political achievements I most hope to see are a united Ireland and an independent Scotland.

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4,110 thoughts on “Feile An Phobail Belfast”

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  • Suhayl Saadi

    Macky, you do have a point in that the paramilitaries in Iraq and Lebanon, for example, are to some extent, anti-colonial resistances. They also mostly fight as one or other confession/tribal based units. For example, Hizbollah and most of the Iraqi units have an Islamist (Shia or Sunni Islamist) political credo. They also are deadly enemies to one another – Sadr versus Badr (both Shia Islamists in Iraq), versus various Sunni groups, etc. In Lebanon, there also are various Christian militias designated as such. With the downfall of Arab Nationalism post-1967 and after the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982, the secular Leftist paramilitaries in Lebanon (always tribal) were destroyed or morphed into Islamist paramilitaries. There was no Hizbollah before the Israeli invasion of 1982. There was no (or at least no visible) Hamas before the First Intifada. So Western military invasion definitely is one driver (not the only driver) in the formation of Islamist paramilitaries. The two feed off one another. This is why Bin Laden et al did 9/11; they wanted the USA to invade Afghanistan. It’s a typical guerrilla tactic.

    Each group in Lebanon is supported by an outside power – Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia/UAE, Israel, etc. Most ‘faith-based’ paramilitaries – Muslim or Christian – are fascist in their methods and in their politics. There are differing situations in Lebanon, Iraq, Libya, etc. In Libya, the anti-Gaddafi paramilitaries were and are pro-NATO. And in Iraq, the paramilitaries switch backers or have multiple backers, eg. the Sunni units who were against, then for, the USA in fighting both Shia and Al Qaeda units. So it’s complex, and it’s a bloody mess.

    In Afghanistan/Pakistan, it’s somewhat different in that the Pakistani state is the main sponsor of Islamist paramilitaries in both Pakistan and Afghanistan. In Pakistan, the Islamists paramilitaries are not anti-colonialist; they are agents of the hard state. Historically, the Islamist paramilitaries in Afghanistan-Pakistan are creations of the USA/UK, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.

    Now, these Islamist resistances have been the most successful in repulsing Western troops and that is one of the reasons why they have gained credibility among Muslim populations. I don’t really know why you are arguing with me on this point. You seem now to have positioned me as, ‘official enemy’ and seem to have decided to try to undermine my ‘credibility’, to character assassinate. I’m not really interested in this, it is somewhat boring for everyone else, and in your case for the third time politely would ask you and others to focus on the issues and not on attacking individual contributors. Thank you.

    Do you know any Leftist people in for example, Pakistan or Afghanistan, Macky? They do not support clerical fascism, nor do they support NATO. It is possible, you know, to be against the machinations of both these groups. Indeed, in the end, they are symbiotic (periodic tactical allies and as enemies, generating a negative spiral of violence and chaos, a convenient divide-and-rule) as history has shown us and neither offer liberation to the people. Your romanticising of Islamist paramilitaries is misguided and in the end merely reinforces neo-colonialism. Have you heard of the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan (RAWA)? I would urge people to look at their website. They make their position very clear.

    http://www.rawa.org/index.php

    I reiterate that you and Fedup (interesting allies here) do not have a monopoly on the representation of Muslim people. Nor do I, of course. But the difference is that I do not pretend to do so.

    But Macky, you still have not answered my very simple question. Here it is again:

    Macky, do you support clerical fascism?

    Thank you for your time.

  • Flaming June

    Horrific deaths of 36 Egyptians, members of the Muslim Brotherhood but described as ‘Islamist detainess’ by the BBC.

    ‘Initially, the interior ministry said the detainees died in an exchange of fire after some of them took a military officer hostage and a convoy of prison vehicles, transporting a total of 612 detainees to Abu Zaabal prison in Qalyubia province, was attacked by unidentified gunmen.

    But later the ministry said the prisoners died from the effects of inhaling tear gas, which was fired when the escaping detainees took a police officer hostage. He was freed, but was badly injured, the military’s statement added.

    A legal source told the Reuters news agency that the detainees had suffocated in the back of a crammed police van.’

    Note the initial lie and then the dreadful truth emerges.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23751129#

  • Flaming June

    Suggest B.Liar and Prince Andrew check up on what goes on in Kazakhstan prisons before they visit the country again.

    ‘Kazakhstan prisoners suffer ‘brutal treatment’18 August 2013 Last updated at 09:32 BST

    Allegations of torture and humiliation have been made by inmates in Kazakhstan.

    Human rights campaigners believe that aspects of forced labour camps – known as the gulag – from the Stalinist era still live on.

    Rayhan Demytrie reports’

    One inmate who died had 31 broken bones.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-23745574

    And Cameron too had better watch out. He visited Nazarbayev on a sales trip in June.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23119325

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1365907/Tony-Blair-Prince-Andrew-mutual-Kazakhstan.html

  • Flaming June

    If confirmation was needed that this is a fascist country, read on. It was referred to earlier by Ben Franklin.

    Glenn Greenwald’s partner detained at Heathrow airport for nine hours
    David Miranda, partner of Guardian interviewer of whistleblower Edward Snowden, questioned under Terrorism Act

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/18/glenn-greenwald-guardian-partner-detained-heathrow

    All his electronic equipment was confiscated for good measure. Mrs May’s goons are at this moment trawling through the hard drives.

  • Sofia Kibo Noh

    @ Phil, Ben and Chris.

    Thanks for your revealing exchanges on US constitution last evening.

    Currency seems to me the key as Chris points out (12 49am).

    “Give me control of a nation’s money and I care not who makes the laws.” Mayer Amschel Rothschild

  • Sofia Kibo Noh

    @ Fedup, Suhayl and Macky.

    Thanks. I’m still not clear but your exchanges help.

    I want to know more about what the dreaded “Sharia” really means. I suppose it covers a wide spectrum and I’m fed up with being bludgeoned with the notion that Sharia = Hell on Earth. What does it really mean?

    I’d love to get an idea of how the traditions of Islam might build a workable (for all) system. Maybe, as in music, the best comes with fusion.

    Must go.

  • Jon

    Sofia – I’ve a pretty good idea what some forms of Sharia would mean. I spoke to representatives of Islam4UK in Birmingham (I think they might since have been proscribed, which would be wrong if so). Their version was the removal of the houses of parliament, replacing them with a system of hierarchical Islamic religious courts. Punishment for gay people and the cutting off of hands for certain wrong-doings was specifically included, though my interlocutor was keen to point out that the system was “very careful” not to get it wrong. No-one would be forced to turn to Islam, but the death penalty was instituted for anyone who turned away from it.

    @Fedup, I do declare we are getting closer! So, you don’t think there was enough people in the second revolution to oust the Brotherhood (or you do think there were sufficient numbers, but do not believe in revolutions when they don’t go the way you want). For what it’s worth, I think where you are getting stuck is you can’t tell the difference between a popular revolution (the people coming out in large numbers) and its unintended consequences (the army seizing power). The second is a consequence of the first, but was not what the people wanted; put another way, the wrongness of the coup does not also make the first action (the people coming out) wrong.

    Suhayl talks about avoiding binary belief systems, and shows with an example how it is possible to be opposed to two options, rather than being “forced” into believing one thing is true because another thing is false. This stuff is complex, and – in a non-antagonistic way – I want to try to get you to understand that, even if you disagree with me in this specific case.

    Your obfuscation on gay rights is pretty clear too, but by no means is it the distraction you think it is. If I publicly identified as a gay man in Egypt, and in your ideal system of governance, I was dragged off by the religious police in the middle of the night, would you object? Would you object if I was jailed for LGBT activism (i.e. standing up for gay people)? (Amnesty International does a lot of work in this area, and in many countries in the world – much of Africa sadly – this does happen).

    Certainly, gay rights is not at the top of the agenda in Egypt at the moment, where people are being murdered by the army. But, here we are setting out a full system of human rights on a discussion board on the internet, and we are not able to help people in Egypt (which is a great pity – I wish we could). Thus, I assert my full support for gay rights, and hope in time you can do so with confidence too.

    I should make it clear that I was brought up in a religious homophobic environment – my mother declared two young lesbians at my college to be “disgusting”. I do wonder whether if her religious and cultural circumstances were to have been different, would she have supported the religious police dragging people off in the middle of the night? Anyway, I resisted the rules of my upbringing, so it is possible to change one’s mind.

    You can too.

  • NR

    Just in time, a new JFK non-assassination theory. No need of magical bullets.
    http://www.nationalenquirer.com/celebrity/shocking-claim-jfk-died-tragic-accident

    The gang at David Icke is all over the Princess Di new assassination news. As to why it’s revealed now, some make the reasonable suggestion that whoever it is who runs the UK these days (Illuminati, Rothschilds/Rockefellers, CIA, Zionists, British Petroleum) want to push Charles aside and get on with a shiny, new, popular King and Queen.

  • Jon

    Sofia, you are certainly right to understand there are different forms of Sharia. It is not at all clear (to me) that the Brotherhood would have become the form I note above – I suspect they would have maintained a religious/democratic mix. The people of Egypt gave them a go, and now (I think) have rejected even moderate Islamic rule for a long time to come.

  • John Goss

    Flaming June at 8.39 am. Grunwald should have his press-card removed. He does not like accusations of Zionism, even though Zionists like him are the scum of the earth, but calling for the assassination by drone attack of anybody is revolting, let alone targeting a fellow-journalist who has done nothing but good just so he could try and justify it. It was not just a throwaway comment. He is a Zionist bigot of the worst kind.

    “He had previously tweeted that he did not care that Anwar al-Awlaki, an American citizen, was killed in a drone strike by the US government, which occurred in 2011.” Wikipedia.

    Two days ago I got condemned as a racist for mentioning the word synagogue as a place where somebody with a Jewish prophet name like Habbakuk might worship and meet up with family. There does not seem to be a great welter of opposition from those quarters regarding these really racist comments from a Jewish (presumably) racist.

  • technicolour

    I second Suhayl’s linking to the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan and suggest that Macky reads their website and understands the development and/or corruption of Islam in all its various forms. It ranges from the Sufi poet Rumi to people driven into an insane version of Islam by perpetual war, the more extreme elements being supported by the USA, as happened in Afghanistan with Hesb-i-Islami.

    I fail to see how anyone can be accused of ‘racism’ for objecting to the potential of Islam as a peaceful, non-totalitarian religion (as in Malaysia) being undermined by the support or installation of a violent and repressive version (as as happened in Afghanistan under the current regime, with the legalisation of, for example, rape in marriage). It is like objecting to a true Christian (ie one who follows the teachings of Christ) who disagrees with violent and repressive right wing Christian puritanism.

  • Jay

    @ Suhayl

    So what is to be gained in all our countries?

    What we are losing is organic by nature. Whether your clerical fascism is appropiate, what follows would surely benefit the non organic entity.

    I.e full use of oil.

    Suhayl aren’t you sick of throwing away plastic bins and cartons?

    What ever the nature of rule surely we must all agree on an organic way?

  • Komodo

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Baqara_256

    There is no compulsion in religion.

    Since it is acknowledged that Jews and Christians also believe in the one god, whatever they call him, this applies equally to them. There may be a getout clause for Eatern Orthodox and Catholics whose treatment of saints comes dangerously close to worship (though saints in Islam receive a fair bit of reverence too).

    Most of sharia is derived from hadith (commentary and interpretation)*, not directly from the Qu’ran, and it should be impossible to insist on the imposition of sharia law without the consent of the governed, as the direct statement of the Qu’ran overrides hadith. This is, I believe, the approach moderate Islam takes: sharia is only appropriate to those who consent to it.

    *as is any religion I can think of

  • Flaming June

    ‘Underlining his support for Israel, he was critical of the latest EU threats of sanctions against the settlements.

    It was important, he said, to “let others know we don’t blindly support Israel. We support Israel because we think that she is just, that she is fair and that she is right. And we won’t always support Israel in absolutely every single case.”’

    http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/109755/mirvis-plans-new-centre-rabbinic-excellence

    His new team. http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/108610/rabbi-mirvis-names-top-aide

  • Phil

    Jon
    “…Punishment for gay people and the cutting off of hands for certain wrong-doings was specifically included”

    I can find you a mental christian to talk to if you promise to put it on the tele. He spends his days in our local park alternating between dressing like a priest and elvis. He’ll say some pretty provocative shit if you ask him the right question. The things he says, it’s hard to believe he correctly quotes the bible. I’m sure he’ll scribble out a placard and get a mate or two to appear. The producer can bring the police. Get in. It’ll be brilliant tele.

    Come on Jon. I’ve spoken with muslims in the uk. I have never heard anyone advocating what you ‘note above’. I suspect it is a minority view that gets dsiproportionately repeated on the tv to demonize the brown people. I further suspect those people who do advocate nutter law would be less driven to do so should nato stop bombing brown people. So to focus on their musings when discussing sharia law in the uk is scaremoingering and completely arse about tit.

  • nevermind

    thanks for once again mentioning RAWA, Suhayl, for it was RAWA who stood up to those who were streamlined in Pakistans madrassas, by CIA and ISI, into a new kind of political Islam, blinkered and hardline.

    It was Afghanistan’s women who taught children clandestinely, who took video’s of Taliban outrages and who dared, under instant threat to their own life’s and without payment, to keep up a basic health service in the remoteness that is Afghanistan. What was their reward? were they put in charge by us in health and education and social work?
    I let you answer this.

    We must not forget that those western powers, and it was not only the US and UK alone, have at all times reviled and colonised Muslims for their own aims. France’s war with Algeria stands to be remembered in this long line of shame.

    http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2001/04/alg-a09.html

    Equally, those who drew up the straight lines in the sand at the turn of the century, petroleum fever distorting their self serving ways, the Rockefella’s and Van der butts.

    thanks for all the links FJ and John Goss. The repressions of our loved ones, because they can’t get to us, should make it demonstrably clear to us all that those who don’t do wrong do have something to fear.

    yesterday I sat in at ‘Whistleblower’ in Edinburgh, a rough and incomplete (1 hour is not long enough) depiction of Bradley Manning trial, with the audience given 5 minutes to decide on his guilt, with some redacted evidence being handed out at the start.

    Given that the public is not much interested in politics, they did not find him guilty and the debate was encouraging. I also watched Henning Wehn enthuse a British crowd to sing German christmas songs, in German, a hilarious piss take on our yearlong obsession, by default, with xmas ,not to speak of the unwillingness to learn other languages, a great show.

    btw. anybody planning to buy christmas presents on Amazon, you have to order now….

    Respect to RAWA and and all the other women who despair of the futile actions of their leaders in this world, all powers to their arms.

  • MJ

    “This is why Bin Laden et al did 9/11; they wanted the USA to invade Afghanistan”

    But the US aleady wanted to invade Afghanistan. It needed no encouragement. The Taliban had been playing hardball over the proposed pipeline and walked out of negotiations after the infamous “we will carpet you with gold or carpet you with bombs” ultimatum. It had also managed to cut opium production to almost zero. Its days were clearly numbered.

  • Komodo

    Henning Wehn….hilarious guy. I’d love to see him on stage

    Tannenbaum Red Flag, please.

  • Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    re Wales/the Welsh language/Bernard Levin :

    It would be difficult, even by the exacting standards of this blog, to find a post with a better mix of mendacity, smear and irrelevance than that offered by “Chris Jones” yesterday at 23h55. A few comments and corrections are therefore required.

    ““And you could have added that they { ie, Welsh speakers }are not spread more or less uniformly through the country either (relatively rare in more “developed” southern Wales, I believe)”

    You believe wrongly but a nice try at spreading more ignorance.”
    ______________

    No, I am correct and you and anyone else can check my statement by googling something like “distribution of Welsh speakers in Wales”.

    The highest percentages of Welsh speakers are to be found in North West Wales (esp. Gwynned and Anglesey) and South West Wales (esp. Ceredigion and Carmarthenshire) – all 50% or higher. The lowest percentages are in Mid Wales (20%), Industrial South Wales (where the highest sub-percentage is 17,8%), Mid and South Glamorgan (where the highest sub-percentage is 12,3%) and Gwent (highest sub-percentage 10,7%).

    If this is not a highly unequal distribution then I don’t know what is.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    “I wonder if you’d like to make the same uneducated bigoted comments on other minority languages or nationalities that exist in Britain? Why don’t you try Bengali or Punjabi people for example – or maybe Pakistanis? Show a bit of consistency in your ignorance.”

    The “ignorance ” argument having been shown to be false (see above), I would make exactly the same point about the distribution of Bengali or Urdu in the UK – it is uneven, for the reason that even you , a “non-ignorant” person, might understand, namely that immigrants from the Indian sub-continent and their UK-born descendants are not distributed equally throughout the UK but are to be found in concentrations. This is merely a statement of fact and has as little to do with bigotry as what I stated about Welsh speakers.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    “The fact that you quote Bernard Levin says a lot though.”

    Why, and what does it say?

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    “Levin was a vile creature of the Zionist variety- well trained at Tavistock Institute and well paid by the British state to spread the bigotry and deliberate xenophobia of the type you quoted.”

    Sources and, if possible, direct quotations?

    This nonsense merely shows that you are ill-acquainted with the man and his writings. He was no Zionist, lived off his journalism and other writing and was not a spreader of bigotry or xenophobia whether deliberate or otherwise. He was a free-thinker (even iconoclast) of conservative tendency.

    Furthermore – and this is perhaps the more important point – EVEN if he were all the things you ignorantly accuse him of, how is that relevant to what I wrote about the distribution of Welsh speakers and how, in your opinion, is it reflected in the humorous extract from his book which I quoted? How would it invalidate the individual points he was making?
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~

    “I wander how he and others with the same paid allegiance as him would react if the same kind of thinly veiled discrimnatory nonsense was targeted at Jewish children and the teaching of Hebrew in Israel?”

    I think he would react with laughter and a large degree of puzzlement at your comment. Leaving aside the slurs (“allegiance”) and falsehoods (“discriminatory” – how do you read that into the quotation?), your example is irrelevant. Hebrew is the official language of Israel and has been since its foundation (along with Arabic). It is therefore hardly surprising that most Israelis are Hebrew speakers and that much effort is put into instructing newcomers in the language.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    So let’s not have any more of this nonsense from you; you are not doing your credibility or what I assume to be your cause any favours with this kind of comment.

  • Jon

    @Komodo, Krishnamurky is the same poster as Hasbarista, who I think is the same as English Knight. I think “goyische cattle” is probably quite unpleasant so I’ll strike it. They’ve been asked to stop this nonsense many a time, so they’ve had their warnings.

  • Phil

    I have heard a phrase elsewhere that I do not understand. It was used to describe a saudi islamic teacher by uk students.

    “HT typical”

    Can anyone shed any light on what that means?

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