The Respectability of Torture
St Mary’s University College, Thurs 1st August, 7.30pm
Craig Murray, former British ambassador to Uzbekistan, was a whistleblower who was removed from his ambassadorial post by Tony Blair for exposing the Tashkent regime‟s use of rape and systematic torture, including the boiling to death of political opponents. He has also spoken out against Central Asia‟s appalling dictatorships, regimes which are allies of the West, involved in torture and rendition, and was accused of threatening MI6‟s relationship with the CIA. Now a human rights activist, author and broadcaster, he outlines the dynamics of torture and the hypocrisy of incriminated Western governments.
My first public appearance for a while will be in Belfast on 1 August where I shall be giving a talk. Long term readers of this blog will recall that, while my focus is largely on international affairs, the domestic political achievements I most hope to see are a united Ireland and an independent Scotland.
FJ: “Sacks is a total hypocrite. I thought of the Orthodox communities in N London when I heard what he was saying. I bet there is little interchange with neighbours”
Well, having lived there, you would bet wrong. Sadly you do not actually put money on this kind of assertion.
“It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.”
– Arthur C Clarke
Our not for profit prophet here lamented that
” namely that immigrants from the Indian sub-continent and their UK-born descendants are not distributed equally throughout the UK but are to be found in concentrations.”
And who designed these ghettos, made out that it was a good idea to group them all together, due to their language and culture? who designed this non integration?
Civil servants who did not understand or foresee that this would inevitable result in language problems and ghetto political excesses, that it would work against the multicultural ambitions and the c Colonial attitudes that usurp the power lineages, the party political regimes who can do no wrong, in short, so called learned people such as you, moishe.
Whatever the Welsh demographics now, they are changing:
“Welsh as a subject is taught as first language in Welsh medium schools. In English medium schools it is taught as a second language and became compulsory for all pupils in Wales at Key Stages 1, 2 and 3 (up to age 14) in 1990. In 1999, it became a compulsory subject for Key Stage 4 pupils (GCSE (ages 15 and 16))” (wiki etc)
Re: Bernard Levin, I knew nothing about him but nor does it matter, since a stream of invective against someone is not worth one quote or action by them. I can find nothing to show he was a producer of “bigotry and deliberate xenophobia, on the contrary:
“Although Levin had rejected Judaism when a youth, he quested after spirituality. Such religious sympathies as he had, he said, were “with quietist faiths, like Buddhism, on the one hand, and with a straightforward message of salvation, like Christianity, on the other”. (wiki)
He also seems to have had a rather more humane and nuanced view on Israel than you, FJ, suggest:
“My attitude to Israel – admiration for the incredible achievements, hope that it will continue, combined with the strongest condemnation of her crime against her original Arab inhabitants and the campaign of lies she has waged ever since on the subject – does not seem to mark me off in any way from a Gentile of similar political outlook”. The use of the words “crime” and “lies” was, in fact, then quite rare.”
http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/world-affairs/2012/07/how-dream-died?quicktabs_most_read=0
But carry on, of course.
Phil, thanks.
If you are of the view that criticism of certain kinds of Islamic belief need to made carefully because of our Islamophobic environment, then I am in agreement with you. I make my comments here in that context because I hope readers (on a liberal blog) will understand that I make these critiques from the left, and not in any way in a propagandistic sense: Islamophobia is to be resisted, and I am still a leftist.
I’m not sure why I should “come on” (in the sense, perhaps, that I’ve either made this up, or that I’m gullible) since I didn’t mistake what they were saying. It was there, in black and white, on sandwich boards as well. Do I think they were a security operation in the sense that they didn’t mean what they said? No, I didn’t, although the total absence of police raised my eyebrows off the top of my head (especially since a demo on the same street for Palestine had been surrounded by twenty constables). Thus, I suspect allowing it to go ahead was a calculated move by the state (and, paradoxically, I think people should have every right to have a peaceable street stall of whatever kind).
So, yes, they hung themselves with their own petard. But what they were saying was unmistakable. Now, I don’t oppose the Brotherhood on the basis of what Islam4UK were saying, since their versions of Islamic rule would, I think, be very different. For the record, I am inclined to agree with the ousting of the Brotherhood because the people kicked them out. I do not agree with the army taking power, or the bloodshed, since those are very different issues.
I am not at all in favour of demonising brown people, and am fully opposed to Islamophobia and racism in all its forms. I am opposed to Western interventionism in Egypt, and elsewhere too.
Technicolour 19 Aug, 2013 – 12:01 pm
“Well, having lived there, you would bet wrong”
I have not lived there but I know the area a little. I spent most of this july slap bang in the middle of stamford hill. I have tried on several occassions, over decades, to engage with an orthodox jew. Sure I was typically only a smiling stranger saying hello in the park but all I got was a blank stare as the person walked off. My friends have lived there for decades and are very friendly people who know the typical range of peoples in london. They do not know one orthodox jew. They do not know one person who knows an orthodox jew. From my limited anecdotal experience the stamford hill community of orthodox jews people do seem not keen to interact with neighbours.
Technicolour, I’m intrigued. Would you mind explaining what form your interactions took? How did you break the ice?
[I hesitate to add the usual caveat that I have jewish friends etc etc. I extrapolate nothing from my experience with the peculiar folk of stamford hill].
Keith Vaz, who hitherto I took to be an oleaginous slug, has today really gone up in my estimation-
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-23750289
The treatment meted out to Greenwald’s partner whilst transiting at LHR was completely unjustified; Brazil is perfectly justified to damn the UK for this gauleiter bullying.
WHY THE IRANIANS HATE BRITAIN
Operation Boot conceived by Conservative politician and Member of Parliament (MP) for Oxford Christopher Woodhouse, 5th Baron Terrington DSO, OBE would use rebellious Iranian elements of the army, the clergy and the political parties to oust Iranian Prime Minister Mossadegh.
Together with the CIA Woodhouse instigated and orchestrated the “bazaaris” of Tehran to demonstrate against Mossadegh. Demonstrations which led to the deaths of thousands of Iranian people.
A key document recently released without redacted sections, confirms CIA and British involvement in this massacre.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-sanctions-are-only-a-small-part-of-the-history-that-makes-iranians-hate-the-uk-6269812.html
OldMark 19 Aug, 2013 – 12:29 pm
” an oleaginous slug”
Of course I had to look up oleaginous.
Anyway just because vaz happens to say something you like merely suggests a happy coincidence born of his expoediency rather then him being less oleaginous than before.
Addendum: I am in agreement that the version of Sharia I encountered is a minority view, agreed.
As an aside, I was rather frustrated that white British people who stopped to discuss would sometimes end up in a shouting match. The patience for debate and logic isn’t always available when it is required, unfortunately.
Oh yes, and a couple of brownshirts from the EDL turned up too. Knocked a few sandwich boards over, and ran off when chased by twenty “Alluah Ackbar” fundamentalists. I told my interlocutor when he returned that I was pleased he chased the nutters away, but that he wasn’t entirely nut-free either.
I have not lived there but I know the area a little. I spent most of this july slap bang in the middle of stamford hill. I have tried on several occassions, over decades, to engage with an orthodox jew. Sure I was typically only a smiling stranger saying hello in the park but all I got was a blank stare as the person walked off. My friends have lived there for decades and are very friendly people who know the typical range of peoples in london. They do not know one orthodox jew. They do not know one person who knows an orthodox jew. From my limited anecdotal experience the stamford hill community of orthodox jews people do seem not keen to interact with neighbours.
I had a similar experience with the Orthodox types in a (?) predominantly Jewish area of W. London in the 60’s. Reform/Liberal, not so bad, but as a Christian au-pair for one of these once told me, “they all eat bacon for breakfast, anyway”.
Phil: Interaction: walking in the same parks on a regular basis; regular greetings given and returned; occasional visits (reciprocated) with next door neighbours; listening to music with Orthodox gents who had come round to ask about renting the next door garage and stayed because they turned out to love jazz (I don’t, at least, not if it’s not Bix, but my partner was playing it) – this being London no less than you’d expect and possibly rather more.
I once gatecrashed a Jewish wedding in E. London, though. The father of the bride spotted us lurking beside the beer (so not Orthodox, then) and told us to finish our pints and get out. Fair enough, indeed gentlemanly treatment, given that some of the guests were big fit bastards and giving us dirty looks as we were allowed to escape…
Another nest. http://www.angloisraelassociation.com/4_ambassadors.pdf
Lord Bew is chairman of the Anglo Israel Association.
He has just been made chair of the Committee on Standards in Public Life.
‘Lord Bew was appointed following an open competition carried out by the Cabinet Office and will take up his post in September.
He will be paid £500 per day, with the chair being expected to commit an average of two to three days a month, although this can increase significantly during inquiries.
The committee is currently looking at transparency and lobbying and issued a call for evidence last month.’
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-23311433
Note the post of historical advisor to the Bloody Sunday Inquiry, that £400m ‘shambles’ as Peter Oborne called it. Its relevancy was called into question.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_Inquiry
His parliament biography. http://www.parliament.uk/biographies/lords/lord-bew/3832
Mary:
1. Can you please explain what you mean by ‘another nest’.
2. Can you retract or explain your assertions about Levin
Respect to Roger Waters for his support of Nigel Kennedy whose words about Apartheid Israel have been expunged from the recording of the Palestine Strings Prom to be shown on BBC 4 this coming Friday.
http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/msg/1376911212.html
All down to Baroness Deech. Her three tweets to Melanie Phillips and Sara Nathan are here which started the process of censorship rolling.
https://twitter.com/BaronessDeech
Tech 3b or 4b http://www.thefreedictionary.com/nest
Levin Not me mate.
Are you the new resident invigilator?
Mary, please answer my questions. You are aware, for example, that the term ‘a nest’ when referring to Jewish people was used by the original Nazis and now features in far-right wing anti-semitic propaganda? I’m sure you are using it quite accidentally, but at the same time, is it really not worrying?
Flaming June, I am in support of you in relation to the unpleasantness you’ve encountered here, but Tech in my opinion has always posted in good faith. A good egg, and not at all an invigilator 🙂
I think the point Tech was making was that there is a danger that your comments may be interpreted as “here’s a nest of Jewish vipers”. I don’t think that’s your view, since it would be incompatible with your previous statements on the subject. But it may be helpful to clarify. Language is sadly subject to all sorts of misinterpretation.
Technicolour
“..no less than you’d expect and possibly rather more.”
Fair enough. My experience is limited and I am happy to hear untypical.
FJ: no. But the term ‘nest’ is of course dehumanising and reductive which it is why it is used exactly by people who wish to demonise sections of the population en masse. Since you are a proponent of the milk of human kindness I am sure you would not wish to follow suit.
Re Levin: meant to type CJ (Chris Jones) apologies.
“On August 1st, the FRC announced the dropping of its probe into the failure of BAE Systems’s auditors”
http://rowans-blog.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/what-has-happened-to-british-criminal.html
So here’s my story about gatecrashing a jewish wedding in north london. I was mmade unbelievable welcome and had a great evening. I did know one of the other guests who grabbed me as I passed outside but still.
Oh god help us cause craig has clearly abandoned us to our descent into self parody. The internet is evil.
Hmmm… I am wondering if, given that the three objectors to the description of Israel as an apartheid state, linked, above share an objective and a social network, instead of “nest”, we might say “cabal”? And would that be any less derogatory?
I am also wondering if, if we are prepared to censor expressions such as “nest” (which can equally apply to cuddly bunnies in a hole as to vipers), why we do not wholeheartedly agree with Deech, Phillips et al, that “apartheid” is a deeply distressing word and should not be used to describe what is self-evidently an apartheid state?
I did know one of the other guests who grabbed me as I passed out but still.
FIFY
Komodo: well, yeah, and I’m not suggesting censorship, just reflection on the feelings which motivate dehumanising epithets. It’s clear that ‘nest’ isn’t meant to refer to cuddly bunnies, for example, which is why the Nazis used it. ‘Cabal’ refers specifically to humans, and is therefore more honest, more accurate and more useful. Btw I don’t think ‘apartheid’ is strong enough to describe what is happening to the Gazans, but.
@Komodo, didn’t see who was rejecting the word apartheid, but FWIW, I fully regard Israel as an apartheid state. (I wouldn’t have posted if I’d seen that @Tech had already done so on the same topic – we posted at the same time).
(I feel quite unaccomplished that I have not gatecrashed a Jewish wedding. Bah).
True enough, Tech, but would you admit, as I do, to some unease at letting the Nazis dictate the terms of our discourse? I would personally advocate more freedom of expression. Let us call a nest a nest if that is what we think describes it. If Goebbels and/or Streicher used the term, it was to advocate mass expulsion or incineration on racial grounds. Yet here we are objecting to mass expulsion on racial grounds: our motives are completely different.
For your entertainment: fruit loop with viper’s nest on his mind. The least of his problems, or of any sane individual attempting to reason with him, would be his choice of language, I think….
http://beforeitsnews.com/tea-party/2012/11/allow-israel-to-clean-out-the-vipers-nest-j-d-longstreet-2465688.html
Phil, agreed – feel myself swirling down the plughole of pointlessness. Sorry, all.