The Respectability of Torture
St Mary’s University College, Thurs 1st August, 7.30pm
Craig Murray, former British ambassador to Uzbekistan, was a whistleblower who was removed from his ambassadorial post by Tony Blair for exposing the Tashkent regime‟s use of rape and systematic torture, including the boiling to death of political opponents. He has also spoken out against Central Asia‟s appalling dictatorships, regimes which are allies of the West, involved in torture and rendition, and was accused of threatening MI6‟s relationship with the CIA. Now a human rights activist, author and broadcaster, he outlines the dynamics of torture and the hypocrisy of incriminated Western governments.
My first public appearance for a while will be in Belfast on 1 August where I shall be giving a talk. Long term readers of this blog will recall that, while my focus is largely on international affairs, the domestic political achievements I most hope to see are a united Ireland and an independent Scotland.
@ Suhayl
Greetings! And just two comments :
1/. Misuse of terrorism legislation: I’m sure the authorities don’t think that Miranda is a terrorist. But they may (reasonably) have thought that his electronic gear (or whatever someone here called it) might have revealed information relevant to terrorist activity. You know that under existing anti-terrorism legislation they have a right to investigate this and therefore I don’t accept that using these powers brings the law into disrepute in this particular case and given Mr Miranda’s activities and where he flew in from.
2/. Persecution : (this is why I made positive reference to your writing skills) : persecution implies something ingoing, repeated, does it not? As far as I’m aware, Mr Miranda was stopped on this occasion; it was a one-off.
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Still no motto! 🙂 But be careful….
Macky, firing on all guns like a gremlined Gatling. I think it’s pretty shoddy to bring your patronising, demeaning views on the female gender into whatever your gripe is; on the other hand, at least we now know you have them.
As for the rest, “Yes, yes those barbaric religious extremists always trying to kill each other, unlike the civilised moderate Christians of the West” – if you think that drawing an equivalence which Suhayl did not draw, rather than addressing the facts in his post is impressive, you do not seem to understand the quality of arguing fairly or reasonably. But that can be seen in your apparent inability to read either a) the posts in which I thank Mary b) the posts in which I have engaged with Mary and c) the conclusion to the discussion about speech and language.
I think you might possibly be making mischief for the sake of it, but do please disabuse me of that notion if you can.
Hollocaust sounds like Churchill and advise and Armenian to me!
How did you exactly get the figures for numbers of the “revolutionaries”?
Given that Egypt has a population of seventy three million people which roughly about seven million live in Cairo. Tharir Square as per the Tim Marshall (sky) assessment could only hold about one hundred thousand people. Revolution are not akin to the Middlesex Mondeo man marginal district voters as you would agree. How did you come to the conclusion that there were sufficient numbers in the “2nd Revolution”? Further unable to keep your claws hidden for long, how did you conclude that the said numbers actually constituted a “Revolution”?? (What about the rest of the fucking Egyptians ie the 66 millions missing from the demonstrations?)
For some reason or other you seem to have fallen for the fucking man on the telly’s story hook line and sinker! How did you come to the conclusion there was a “popular Revolution”? There has been no unintended consequence, from the moment Morsi took over he was on his way to prison, you do know that the general in charge (general el-Sisi) was Morsi’s defence minister? ie an insider, who was planning from the git go to bring down the hapless Morsi.
The rough and tumble of competing thoughts must take their course to discern the more ideal solution through rigorous tests. Fucking hell I am going all literate and shit now, see what you have done?!!!
There you go, talking about sex again!!
Jon you assume that I hate gays, mate that is not the case, I don’t want to go through the cliché; I have many gay friends and in fact I was once gay myself before I was cured by the help of our Lord Jesus Christ kicking the demons of Gayness virus out of me and cleansing; my body, butt, and mind!!!!!
I omitted to start taking about gays, because if there was a death penalty for gay people the Arab population would be less than halved in no time. Everyone experiments and most boys will get up to all manner of shenanigans. In the light of this natural curiosity and the fact that strict gender segregation controls are set in place in most of these Islamic societies you will find a disproportionate vitriol getting dished out to Gays. However, this is more of bark than bite, so long as the gays keep themselves to themselves and stop prancing around and openly go about cottaging, everyone looks the other way. Hell most of the religious guys probably would love to teach these boys how to be good boys! Truth be known.
However as in line with anything connected with mid east this vociferous vitriol against gays is picked up on and turned into yet another bludgeon to hit those poor bastards living in that part of the world on the head, to further marginalise them. So don’t take that shit seriously mate, just go and find how many gays are getting shot/hanged/buggered to death. The statistics for it are minuscule.
so far as chopping hands are concerned, first off how can any man without a hand earn a living? Secondly cutting hands was a Chinese practice that is picked up by the Muslims, and it is in the fashion of separating a joint of a finger for the first offence. This is very similar to Yakooza as an act of penance, but as ever this punishment is also picked up and yes used as yet another bludgeon to hit the poor bastards on the head with. Although there are power mad bastards who will chop a whole fucking head off if they can get away with it, but that is not a Muslim thing and more of an Imam thing as with the kiddie fiddling priests.
Do you understand now? Or are you going to go on about sex some more?
Jeez, Nevermind, is it a language problem or something more serious with you?
When we’re talking about language distribution, we’re talking about areas of a certain size which have a certain resonance. Hence the figures I quited for Wales refer not to Cardiff, and even less to parts of Cardiff (for example) but to units such as Camarthenshire or Industrail South Wales.
Similarly, when I talk about “concentrations” of Urdu speakers in the UK, I’m talking about entire cities (eg, London, Leicester, Birmingham or areas (eg Cornwall…) and not specific boroughs in London or wherever.
So your rant about “ghettos” is entirel off the wall.
Secondly, are you seriously suggesting that immigrants are coerced into specific areas of big cities? I mean “coerced”. You claim might just – but only just – have some merit if you were talking about council housing, but you may be aware, even from deepest Norfolk, that most immigrants were housed (and still are) in either privately rented properties or in purchased accomodation and that this has nothing to do with direction from or by the local authorities.
So in conclusion, please stop being so silly. Find proper arguments or : Klappe zu!
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La vita è bella, life is good! (Gegen die Dummheit kaempfen selbst die Goetter umsonst)
Thanks, Habbabkuk. I take your points. Even when I diagree with you, as I do here – I think one ought to be really very concerned about intimidation of journalists by intimidating their families – it’s generally a pleasure to discourse with you.
Technicolour, at 8:45pm, today: Thanks again. Yes, I don’t know what’s happened to Macky. Interesting, though, what comes out in the flow.
He has seen through your camouflage.
BTW can you elaborate on the labels you so freely throw around?
A- Islamist
What does this mean?
B- Fascism
What does this mean?
C- Democracy
What does this mean?
Technicolour; “I think it’s pretty shoddy to bring your patronising, demeaning views on the female gender into whatever your gripe is”
Oh is that what I really did ?! If that’s really your perception, you better just stick to sticking snarky daggers into your bestest friend, Mary
Technicolour; “if you think that drawing an equivalence which Suhayl did not draw, rather than addressing the facts in his post”
Obviously the point went over your head, so I make it simple for you, SS was slyly trying to agree, as I had forced him to do, that the various Arab Resistances were primarily anti-colonial Nationalist rather than Jihadist in nature, but at the same time he still continued to paint them as fanatical Islamists, that are always fighting each other over religious differences; very subtle, but very deliberate. I chose to respond by pointing out that religious in-fighting is hardly unique to just Islam.
“A- Islamist
What does this mean?
B- Fascism
What does this mean?
C- Democracy
What does this mean?” Fedup.
Look up the dictionary, Fedup, or read history. Of course, all of these terms/realities have multiple and varied applications in different situations and at different times. They are good questions, though. What is Islamism, what is democracy, what is fascism? Yes, good and important questions. Thank you for asking them. It would take three essays to answer properly, I think. For the basic definitions, one can look up a dictionary.
Did you even bother to read my countless posts and links to sites where Muslim people – including, btw, reforming Islamists in Saudi Arabia – are actually actively discussing,and agitating about, matters of democracy, constitutional monarchy and much else, in a way that you appear to believe are beyond the pale? No doubt, you would address them as you address me. It is easier to grab an ideology and stick to it, I guess.
In spite of your unremitting and unjustifed attacks, I understand why you may feel the need to mount these attacks and I wish you only good.
“Things Are Bad And Getting Worse
Paul Craig Roberts”
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2013/08/19/growing-up-in-america-paul-craig-roberts/
I really enjoy reading your contributions. Fact is Suhayl goes with the flow, and as you have correctly outlined sticks to the hymn sheet faxed to him or to story line as seen on the telly. His wisdom is the exact cliché and he sticks to it come hell or high water. Although he has his groupies and these are always sticking up for him too. Frankly I ma yet to read a nuanced and in depth analysis of any sorts, but life is full of surprises one day it may happen, when Islamists have won I suppose. Needles to point out Jon now will delete this comment, leaving behind: bollocks, piffle, indignation, guidance, rules.
I wanted to set a point of reference, so that we all have a working knowledge of what the other means?
I would suggest that focussing on me is simply a distraction from addressing the holes in your ideology, Fedup (and Macky). Let us assume for a moment that I am everything you say I am (I am not, of course, but let us get that out of teh way for a moment). That does not change the glaring deficiencies in your reasoning, nor the manifest problems of the ideology which you appear to endorse. Refusal properly to engage is not a sign of strength, quite the opposite.
“Brodsky: N.Y.’s prospect of bankruptcy”
http://www.timesunion.com/opinion/article/Brodsky-N-Y-s-prospect-of-bankruptcy-4724726.php
“Oh is that what I really did ?!”
“perhaps it’s a female rivalry thing;”…”who was it that ever said that the females were the gentlest sex ?!”
yes – that’s really what you did.
Hang on I have heard of Schroedinger cat, but it cannot be dead or alive once the box is opened. You are either what we say, in which case there is no further debate, you change your tune and see the error of your logic. You are not what we say, in which case you will go on as before bollocksifying your way through the electrons, in a hasbawanker fashion all pleased with yourself, you have done a good snow job. Which is it to be?
Someone,
thanks for that bit of news about N Y.
“Barings Bank had survived all that more than two centuries had thrown at it. The Industrial Revolution, World Wars, even the Great Depression. Then along came one audacious 20-something called Nick Leeson and the whole venerable, rock-solid British financial institution came tumbling down.”
http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/content/2011/s3367080.htm
“hasbawanker” Fedup.
Oh dear.
Ah! You want me to change my mind. I see. To what, precisely?
Look, I think your point about concept definitions is a valid one. All the three terms you mention are somewhat slippery and reductive, aren’t they and have been misused often and by many. So, perhaps we all would do well to think about what the terms mean to us. Thank you, Fedup for raising a valid point.
Suhayl Saadi; “That does not change the glaring deficiencies in your reasoning, nor the manifest problems of the ideology which you appear to endorse.”
Always up for critical corrections, and presumably & with rather much presumption on your part, I take it you are referring to Islam, so care to expand on both issues, & without insulting this time ?
Fedup: I learnt rather a lot from Arsalan on the Egyptian thread and also on Palestine years ago but “frankly I ma yet to read a nuanced and in depth analysis of any sorts” – why don’t you provide one, then? There seems to be a tension here between a general discussion about Islam and the situation in Egypt specifically and since I do not agree with the coup, or with the treatment of Morsi, or his supporters – in fact, I find it horrifying – and nor does anyone else I have read here, I fail to understand your frothing about Zionists blah blah. It’s perfectly understandable that anyone would be concerned about the rights of previously persecuted minorities eg LBGT groups – under any disapproving regime, whether in Saudi, Egypt or Russia, since it goes hand in hand with concern about the treatment of Muslims, or Jews, in non-majority countries. Why can you not see that and what premium is there in refusing to?
Deleted one item from Villager just now, and will continue to do so. Too many insults and not a single substantive point. Villager, if you really must converse with John – despite how fruitless it appears for both of you – please try to do so with civility.
Macky, where Suhayl uses “hasbawanker”, it is an unpleasant quotation directly from Fedup. Suhayl has never referred to anyone here in such a way.
Habbabkuk – Nevermind’s first language is not English, so perhaps that doesn’t help your discussion. I haven’t read in depth, but whatever the source of your anger, please ease up. Productive exchange, if you will?
“you better just stick to sticking snarky daggers into your bestest friend, Mary” – strange, do you not like another poster being asked direct and polite questions? Did you go back and reread my (many) years long history of posting alongside Mary? I think not, Macky.
“I take it you are referring to Islam, so care to expand on both issues, & without insulting this time ?” Macky.
No, actually. I was not referring to Islam.
Now, are you able to answer my very simple question, Macky?
In case you have forgotten, here it is again:
Macky, do you support clerical fascism?
But perhaps there should be a follow-on question:
Do you equate clerical fascism with Islam?
Two questions, then, both with potentially ‘yes’ or ‘no’ answers.
@ Someone
Good to see you back, Someone!
Your reappearance after a long absence has reminded you to ask you something.
Some while ago you posted expressing great indignation about charges of insulting behaviour which had been brought against a certain Mr Alex Cline in Brighton magistrates court. He apparently shouted “coward” at the local Tory MP and was charged with insulting behaviour.
In reply to your post, and as you were obviously very interested in the affair, I asked you to keep an eye on that case and to report back on whether the Brighton magistrates had convicted him or, conversely, thrown out the charge.
I’m sure that Mr Cline’s case has been heard by now. Why have you not reported back to us? Could it be that Mr Cline was indeed acquitted of the charge?
On a gentler note, and accompanying my wishes to all for a peaceful night, here is a quotation from the wonderful Anatole France (unfortunately I can’t tell you where it comes from) :
“Until one has loved an animal, a part of one’s soul remains unawakened”.
Sorry Macky, I’ve excised your last comment. That was an attack on Technicolour with no redeeming features of any kind – what on earth is going on? Technicolour’s post at 10:34 pm was not an attack on you. Relax! I understand the temperature has risen here of late, and it seems to fluctuate at a higher level than it previously used to, but please be both bulletproof and forgiving. And focus on the issues, not the posters.
Thanks, Habbabkuk, at 10:40pm, today, that’s a lovely quote. Have a paceful night 🙂
Correction: Peaceful, not paceful! Though no doubt it could be both!
Jon; “Macky, where Suhayl uses “hasbawanker”, it is an unpleasant quotation directly from Fedup. Suhayl has never referred to anyone here in such a way.”
Eh ? Are you getting your wires crossed yet again Jon, as I don’t know why you have addressed this to me ?