I have been trying for the last few days to discover a coherent logic towards my feelings on man’s relationship with his environment. This is proving not to be simple.
The process started when I heard on World Service radio a gentleman from the International Panel on Climate Change discussing their latest report. As you know, I tend to accept the established opinion on climate change, and rather take the view that if all our industrial activity were not affecting the atmosphere, that would be strange.
But what struck me was that the gentleman said that a pause in warming for the last fifteen years was not significant, as fifteen years was a blip in processes that last over millennia.
Well, that would certainly be very true if you are considering natural climate change. But we are not – we are considering man-made climate change. In terms of the period in which the scale of man’s industrial activity has been having a significant impact on the environment, surely fifteen years is a pretty important percentage of that period? Especially as you might naturally imagine the process to be cumulative – fifteen years at the start when nothing much happened would be more explicable.
Having tucked away that doubt, I started to try to think deeper. Man is, of course, himself a part of nature. Anything man does on this planet is natural to this planet. I do not take the view man should not change his environment – otherwise I should not be sitting in a house. The question is rather, are we inadvertently making changes to the environment to our own long term detriment?
That rejection of what you might call the Gaia principle – that the environmental status quo is an end in itself – has ramifications. It is hard to conceptualise our relationship with gases or soil, but easier in terms of animals. I am not a vegetarian – I am quite happy that we farm and eat cattle, for example – and you might argue that the cattle are pretty successful themselves, symbiotic survivors of a kind. Do I think other species have a value in themselves? Is there any harm in killing off a species of insect, other than the fact that biodiversity may be reduced in ways that remove potential future advantages to man, or there may be knock on consequences we know not of that damage man somehow? I am not quite sure, but in general I seem in practice to take the view that exploitation of other species and substantial distortion of prior ecological balance to suit men’s needs is fine, so presumably the odd extinction is fine too, unless it damages man long term.
I strongly disapprove of hurting animals for sport, and want to see them have the best quality of life possible, preferably wild. But I like to eat and wear them. I am not quite sure why it is OK to wear animal skin on our feet or carry it as a bag, but not to wear “fur”. What is the difference, other than that leather has had the hair systematically rubbed off as part of the process of making it? A trivial issue, but one that obviously relates to the deeper questions.
Yes I draw a distinction between animals which are intelligent and those which are not. I would not eat whale or dolphin. But this does not seem entirely logical – animal intelligence and sensibility is evidently a continuum. Many animals mourn, for example. The BBC World Service radio (my main contact with the outside world at present – I have just today found my very, very weak internet connection just about works if I try it at 5am) informed me a couple of days ago that orang-utans have the ability to think forward and tell others where they will be the next day. Why cattle and fish are daft enough to eat is hard to justify.
I quite appreciate the disbenefits to man of radically changing his environment, even if it could be done without long term risk to his existence – the loss of beauty, of connection to seasons and forms of behaviour with which we evolved. But I regard those as important only as losses to man, not because nature is important intrinsically. In short, if I thought higher seas, no polar bears and no glaciers would not hurt man particularly, I don’t suppose I would have much to say against it. I fear the potential repercussions are too dangerous to man. At base, I don’t actually care about a polar bear.
“That kinda proves my point.”
And there was me thinking it proved my point.
Great, we’re both right 🙂
“But the problem is Fred it has probably taken 30 years for the Guardian to cover this when the protest should have been ongoing until their release was secured.”
The British press can’t cover every injustice in the American penal system, not enough trees left to make enough paper.
But if you’re interested in an ongoing protest to release a victim of American injustice here’s a worthy cause for you.
http://anatomyofawrongfulconviction.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/big-update-trial-transcript-and-related.html
Get protesting.
One reason why I hoped that somebody like Fred might comment on the innocent man held in solitary confinement for 30 years was because tomorrow Talha Ahsan, a UK citizen, will have been in a US Supermax prison held in solitary confinement for twelve months. This is after spending 6 years in a UK prison without any charge being brought against him. Here Talha’s mother talks about the last time she saw Talha. For Red Robbobkuk’s benefit keeping a man incarcerated who has done no wrong is Stalinist, and the kind of thing I have always fought against.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIbnfBfBc2o&feature=youtu.be&t=3m
Hi Grownups.
Great bunfight by the way.
I’ll move on quickly, while I can still resist the temptation to join in.
mark golding
4 Oct, 2013 – 12:12 am
Our mind mincer ‘school-conditioning’ not only roots an enormous pressure on children to succeed, our kids eventually drop out the mincer back-end as consumption units programmed to buy, spend, consume and obey while instantialized to a generic ‘dry-run’ enabled education template lacking inquiry, evaluation and verification.
As an example when will children be taught that the mind is not confined to the head and hypocrisy, deception, lying and treachery are perfectly acceptable ways to spread fear and control.
The education system still goes unquestioned while all the other shit goes down. But, doesn’t this system successfully churn out obedient consumers of fashion and dodgy MSM narratives.
Do you know or have you known any self-directed, home educated kids?
Isn’t there an inbuilt problem with schooling which runs counter to genuinely providing education?
A child has their opportunity to explore and make sense of the world hijacked by a grownup-designed regime which uses her/him as a pot to pour mandated “subjects” into. And then most of it is forgotten pretty quickly.
So why does the establishment insist on ignoring the fact that a kid is a kind of curious sponge that will shine if encouraged to explore their own topics of the day?
Then there is the exam rights of passage drama that puts not only the kid but the whole family under strain. All that fuss and disruption so she/he can regurgitate acceptable bits of swatted info and be credited, or not, with points as their keys to grownupland.
Schooling also tends to colonise parent’s agendas so that their relationship with the kid can become largely about homework or other school stuff. That’s precious time that will never be enjoyed, interacting with a curious and engaged son or daughter. Another sad loss for society.
So it seems to me this is another area like currency, that needs a total overhaul once the madness loses it’s power to control.
What a social resource our schools could be as community information and skill bazaars.
…
OT. Was that a trike I heard?
“Fred would be, but only if he manages to curb his hang-up so that every debate doesn’t end in the same swearing sewage.”
Everybody here knows my rule, don’t make it personal.
Somebody calls me names I just assume they want me to flame them.
From what I’ve seen of the case, Fred, it looks like a gross injustice, with corrupt police and even the judge in the case receiving sexual favours from Don Miller’s accuser of rape. I agree that people should “Get protesting” and hopefully yu will get involved too.
Sofia, good to see you back on the blog. How’s the trip going?
‘I agree that people should “Get protesting” and hopefully yu will get involved too.’
You didn’t read all the link then.
John Goss:
For starters, you could refer to me by my proper handle and not by something you’ve made up I suppose by way of abuse. Prosecutors in the Stalinist show trials of the late 1930s used to specialise in hurling abuse at their victims as well, didn’t they.
You say you detest being called a Stalinist and and ask me to withdraw (twice, for good measure). I will answer be reaffirming my opinion that you have the mindset of a Stalinist, and I will add the word Leninist as well (for good measure). Your posts on this thread offer ample justification: you wrote in favour of ‘positive discrimination in favour of the left’ in the media and when I asked you how you would go about realising that, you remained silent; you then went on to abuse other posters, and even accused someone of being a Zionist without knowing it because that someone denied being a Zionist. Your posts, as pointed out by others, reek of ‘I am the only one who is right’ and intolerance. You rejoice that someone called ‘Habbakuk’ was silenced and imagine that you would be overjoyed if others such as ‘Villager’, ‘Anon’ and ‘Resident Dissident’ were similarly silenced.
Lastly, you are not even qualified to complain about being called a Stalinist since you seem to know little about what being a Stalinist means, judging by your claim that “Stalin was funded…by Zionist money”.
If the cap fits, then wear it and if it doesn’t, buy another one. I’m done with you.
“Lastly, you are not even qualified to complain about being called a Stalinist since you seem to know little about what being a Stalinist means, judging by your claim that “Stalin was funded…by Zionist money”.”
Actually he got that bit right.
Thanks for asking John.
I’ve ridden with the fearsome Kurkvacmucs across the dusty plains of Shoklocobat.
I’ve escaped from the cages of flesh-eating Sky Pirates.
And I’ve tasted the legendary Jolijoli potion deep in the cave of a Wathafeck shaman.
But aside from that it’s all been a bit quiet really.
Prosecutors in the Stalinist show trials of the late 1930s used to specialise in hurling abuse at their victims as well, didn’t they.(sic)
Congratulations on trying to drop the interrogative, H. But simply omitting the “?” isn’t enough….
You don’t have a proper title Red Robbo or Habbabkuk or whatever you want to be called. I am not ashamed of my name and not afraid to speak out on behalf of the oppressed under that name. You should know that a Leninist and a Stalinist are two different animals. I am neither one nor the other, and as I’ve pointed out to you before I have never been a member of the Communist party. According to a number of historical websites Zionist money funded the Soviet Revolution. But there’s no point in linking them for someone who never reads factual articles but just blathers on about bollocks. You ought out of common decency retract and apologise for accusing me of being a Stalinist.
Meanwhile for those who do read articles, this harrowing case of the blatant evil of Pakistani Sharia Law enacted in the stoning to death of a woman, shows why some elements of Muslim society ought to be eradicated, educated and driven out by the law of human and equal rights.
http://www.opposingviews.com/i/religion/islam/arifa-bibi-stoned-death-pakistan-possessing-cell-phone?
Thanks for the entertainment Sofia. Habbabkuk got his cards, don’t know whether you were aware, but your dad’s back under the pseudonym of Red Robbo if you had not gathered.
The BBC have given Netanyahu of airtime to spout off more anti- Iranian vitriol. It appeared as a news item on the BBC News Channel just now. The propaganda came from BBC Persian.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24395917
Israel PM Netanyahu warns Iranians of ‘immortal regime’
Mr Netanyahu tells BBC Persian TV that Iran could become “immortal”
Israel’s prime minister says Iranians “deserve better” than their current government and that their lives could get worse if it gains nuclear weapons.
In an interview with BBC Persian, Benjamin Netanyahu warned: “If they get nuclear weapons this brutal regime will be immortal, like North Korea.”
He also said the new President, Hassan Rouhani, could not “change the real decisions” made by the Supreme Leader.
Ayatollah Ali Khamenei and Mr Rouhani have said they reject nuclear weapons.
They insist Iran’s nuclear programme is solely for peaceful purposes, but world powers suspect they are not being truthful.
There has nevertheless been a recent thaw in relations between Iran and the United States, with Mr Rouhani and President Barack Obama recently discussing the issue – the first top-level conversation between the two countries for more than 30 years.
On Tuesday, Iranian diplomats at the United Nations reacted angrily after Mr Netanyahu described their president as a “wolf in sheep’s clothing” in a speech to the General Assembly.
“If they want civilian energy, they don’t need enrichment… Uranium enrichment is necessary only if you want nuclear weapons”
Benjamin Netanyahu Israeli Prime Minister
In his interview – his first with an international Persian-language media organisation – the Israeli leader said Mr Rouhani did not “represent the Iranian people”.
“He represents a desire for change, but it wasn’t expressed in a free open election.”
“I don’t think he has the mandate to change the real decisions that are made by Khamenei. Khamenei wants nuclear weapons for Iran.”
Mr Rouhani has said he has “full power and complete authority” to strike a nuclear deal. However, ultimate power lies with the Supreme Leader.
Mr Netanyahu told BBC Persian that people, himself included, wanted to see “a diplomatic solution to end Iran’s quest for nuclear weapons”.
“But I want to see a real solution. Not a fake one.”
That would involve the “complete dismantling of Iran’s ability to make nuclear weapons”, he added.
“If they want civilian energy, they don’t need enrichment. Uranium enrichment is necessary only if you want nuclear weapons.”
“If they get nuclear weapons this brutal regime will be immortal, like North Korea. It will go on repressing the people of Iran, who deserve better. They are a great people.”
The UN Security Council has adopted a series of resolutions requiring Iran to stop enriching uranium, which can be used for civilian nuclear purposes, but also to build nuclear bombs.
But Iran says it is simply doing what it has a “right” to do under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) and is enriching uranium for power station fuel or other peaceful purposes.
Chicago Prof suggesting that President can over ride Congress and increase national debt as part of his emergency powers; if this came about then the emergency allowing democracy to be ignored would be a financial crisis. Apparently there is provision for this if there is a need of a debt because of a rebellion (that was an amendment brought in further to the Civil War)……….hhhhhm……..
Komodo at 12.46 pm. Witty. I’ve even been known to drop one or two myself.
Hi Sophia, great to hear you’re safe, well and enjoying yourself.
Some family news – not good, I’m afraid.
Your Dad was asked to leave the premises on account of his embarrassing personal habits. I’m worried about him. He disappeared for a few days and now he’s turned up with a flowerpot on his head and he thinks nobody recognises him. It’s going to take more than wearing a geranium to hide those, er, personal problems. All a bit sad, really.
And your little brother has gone feral. He’s living in the garden, and shouting at us through the window, He’s filthy and his hair is all matted and sometimes he mumbles about God, but nothing he says makes any sense, mostly just swearing and name-calling.
Please come home as soon as you can, your family need you (and bring me some jolijoli potion, if you would).
“I have no intentions of engaging you”
I wasn’t trying to engage you, or Macky. I wouldn’t waste my time.
But Mary should have the guts to reply to people, instead of relying on her fanbois to do it for her. She’s quick enough to open her mouth when she wants to.
John
Re incarnation.
During the three days of my psychic travels, after I drank from the ochre smeared gourd that held the, slightly fetid and gelatinous yellow Jolijoli potion, I came to understand what to the Wathafecks is commonplace knowledge, but something that what was absent from my late-industrial era education. Everything spirals, so what returns is different from what left.
So, I think you are mistaken.* After shattering the world record for malicious occupation of a blog Dad was rewarded with his own office now he just tells his minions how it’s done.
The entity (Robokuk?) you referred to is an unstable prototype in the process of being blog-tested pre cloning and release into the wider blogosphere. As yet it has not realized the proud boasts of it’s creator. “This one could get the Dalai Lama to throw a punch!” It will likely be dismantled and reused on lift or air conditioning unit, or something.
*Also I think you are wrong re Fred and he’s understandably offended. We all know he just likes flaming and when it’s over he’ll explain his position even if it seems a bit potty, but he’s not a troll or zionist.
Thanks Sofia for more from your entertaining pen. So it’s a clone then? They took the one gene and reproduced a copy, of Habbabkuk. Oh my God no! Tell me it’s not true! As to Fred I’ve already been put right on him not being a Zionist by others. I’ve accepted it and kind of half-apologised. I think he’s forgiven me for bringing out the very worst in him. His defence was the hot snort of a fire-breathing dragon (hope you don’t meet any of those) and watch out for the Komodos!
OT, good to have somebody else aware of the real cause of 9/11. They almost got away with it but thanks to some good people, including the late Jewish film-maker, Aaron Russo, most people know now. Alas it is another important news story that never gets discussed on mainstream media. Can anybody explain why?
So I presume anyone who objects to John Goss’ name being altered (which incidentally I do, it’s rather pathetic) also objected equally strongly to Havacock, Halfacock blah blah ad nauseam, but were merely too polite and delicate to say it. Right? Or is it by any chance one rule for one lot of people and another for another?
@ OT
Hush, you’re spoiling my get rich quick scheme.
I’m setting up a demolition business, specialising in tower blocks. Instead of spending millions on a trained crew setting hundreds of precise explosive charges at exact positions around the building, all co-ordinated to detonate in sequence with micro-second timing in order to collapse the building onto its own footprint, I’m just going to set fire to the top of the building.
And if I ever get a contract to do three buildings at the same time, I’m only going to set fire to two of them because the third will come down in sympathy.
Money for old rope.
I have no intention of getting into some sort of spat Dreoilin. We are on the same side after all.
Yes it is Obomber. He is a bomber with Tuesday at his selection day for the recipients. Yes it is Agent Cameron – he acts on behalf of the 1% and yes it is *unt. If you had been born into a wonderful national health service and you saw it being destroyed before your very eyes with that nitwit at the head, you might think the same.
I have never called you any names and I do not have ‘fans’! What on earth are you on about? Enough.
I think a new post from Craig is needed. The dreaded page 5 syndrome is about to kick in. Page 4 has not been very productive either.
A Node
“Hush, you’re spoiling my get rich quick scheme….”
Doesn’t everyone know it had to be this man?
A man like that is surely evil enough to knock down those towers from a cave in Afghaniraqistan!
And don’t be going on about WTC 3 as though the fact that it wasn’t even hit by a plane has anything to do with it.
It’s been clearly explained that that building collapsed on it’s own footprint because…er…you see..um…well it just DID! See!
Here’s the man that did 9/11.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9L0vZEX1YZc
Try denying that!
“Or is it by any chance one rule for one lot of people and another for another?” — Tech
That’s what pisses me off, probably more than anything else.
Your point about ‘Halfacock’ etc is well made, but you know it’ll draw accusations of “ziofuckwit”. Or it’ll be noted and you’ll be accused of babysitting ziof*ckw*ts in a few days time.
Den mother! 🙂
“I have no intention of getting into some sort of spat Dreoilin”
No need for any “spat” Mary. I would genuinely like to know what you consider a “troll” to be. In your own words.