There had never been an Ukrainian nation state until the last twenty five years. The boundaries of the old Soviet Socialist Republics were never intended to define nation states, and indeed were in part designed to guard against forming potentially dangerous cohesive units. The Ukrainians are a nation and f they wish are certainly entitled to a state, but that its borders must be those defined, and changed several times, by the Soviet Union for the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic is not axiomatic.
It is not true that there is a general desire for secession for Ukraine on the linguistic and broadly West East split. It is true that key political attitudes do correlate closely to the linguistic split, with Russian speakers identifying with the ousted government, and favouring closer ties with Russian over closer ties with the West, while Ukrainian speakers overwhelmingly favour EU integration. But that does not translate into a general desire by the Russian speakers to secede from a Ukraine that goes the other way. The key to this is that two thirds of Russian speaking Ukrainian nationals view themselves as ethnically Ukrainian, not Russian. Only a third of Russian speakers, a sixth of the general population, regard themselves as ethnically Russian. It does appear to be true that among those who view themselves as ethnically Russian, there is a significant desire for union with Russia, and that there is probably a majority in some Eastern provinces for that idea, probably including Crimea. But the area involved is far smaller than the linguistically Russian area.
Ethnicity is of course a less tangible concept than linguistic identity, and has little claim to objective reality, particularly in an area with such turbulent history of population movement. But it is futile to pretend it has no part in the idea of a nation state, and is best regarded as a cultural concept of self-identification.
The historical legacy is extremely complex. Kievan Rus was essential to the construction of Russian identity, but for Russia to claim Kiev on that basis would be like France claiming Scandinavia because that is where the Normans came from. Kievan Rus was destroyed and or displaced by what historical shorthand calls the Mongal hordes, almost a millennium ago. Ukrainian history is fascinating, the major part of it having been at various times under Horde, Lithuanian, Polish, Krim Tartar, Galician, Cossack Federation, Russian and Soviet rule.
Still just within living memory, one in seven Ukrainians, including almost the entire intellectual and cultural elite, was murdered by Stalin. An appalling genocide. Like Katyn a hundred times over. That is the poisonous root of the extreme right nationalism that has rightly been identified as a dangerous element in the current revolution. Pro-western writers have largely overlooked the fascists and left wing critics have largely overlooked Stalin. His brutal massacre and ethnic cleansing of the Krim Tartar is also relevant – many were forcibly deported to Uzbekistan, and I have heard the stories direct.
Having served in the British Embassy in Poland shortly after the collapse of the Soviet Union, I regard as blinkered those who deny that membership of the European Union would be a massive advantage to Ukraine. In 1994 there was very little difference in the standard of living in both countries – I saw it myself. The difference is now enormous, and that really means in the standard of living of ordinary working people. Poland’s relationship with, and eventual membership of, the European Union has undoubtedly been a key factor. Those who wish Ukraine instead to be linked to the raw commodity export economy of Putin’s Russia are no true friends of the working people. Ukraine’s accidental boundaries include, of course, the great formerly Polish city of Lvov.
Ukraine is an accidental state and its future will be much brighter if it is a willing union. It needs not just Presidential and Parliamentary elections, but also a federal constitution and a referendum on whether any of its provinces would prefer to join Russia. That can give an agreed way forward to which Russia might also subscribe, and defuse the current crisis. It would suit the long term interest of both the Ukraine and the West. I fear however that the politicians will be too macho to see it.
OK so we have Nuland (“eminent” person to midwife Ukranian regime change and Biden to “attaboy” the handover!), Rice (spinning, warns Russia not to invade), Obama (there will be consequences, lending support to the Maidanistas). So WHERE do these devils have their meetings and brainstorming sessions, WHO are the armchair devils that conceptualise these regime change operations, HOW do they communicate and sync (eg Nuland caught talking to Ambassador) their public speech. Is it some kind of deep state group within the rest of the unsuspecting 28k people that work at the Pentagon? No whistleblowers even so far, it must have taken a heck of a lot of planning and personnel to pull off 911, right down to the chit (epic fail) handed to the BBC announcer to announce the fall of WTC7. A TNW on the Pentagon should usher in the Kingdom of Heaven surely if all the responsible devils for all these worldwide plots are wiped out in one fell swoop?!!
Kulak
Sorry this is my relatively poor English. I must admit that knowledge of stalin’s national policy in particular national territorial delimitations policy, russification and korenizaciya will help understanding major background of current Ukrainian crisis. Although I must admit that transfer of Crimea to Ukraine has happened after bloody uncle’s death.
“You should be careful too.”
Much appreciated. I think the Muslims are right about one thing; “It is written…”
I’ve become somewhat fatalistic as time has flown by.
Habbabkuk, 12:00 am:
Well I’ll let Wikipedia say more:
So, anti-Stalinist and hated by various unpleasant forces, they could be ethical communists. Some will regard this as a contradiction in terms, of course, but that’s just ideology, just as some ideologies regard all capitalism as unethical.
So long as they pursue their ends by persuasion, organisation and democracy rather than violence and destruction, I’m prepared to give them a hearing. The article seems reasonable, though “Western” support of the Far Right could be opportunistic as much as conspiratorial.
The English are a nation and if they wish are certainly entitled to a state … Oops! Sorry for my racist utterance. Ukrainians a nation state, sure, but not those white English bastards: bring on the mass immigration, eh Craig?
AlcAnon/Squonk
Thanks.
|||CAGE. A strong reminder of rendition and the utter duplicity of USUKIS. Utterly miserable accounts of Assad/US torture.
The fact that Assad is sponsored by both USUKIS and Russia in Syria should be borne in mind at this time while USUKIS/Russia are midwifing a transition in Ukraine under the EU price-tag. The war in Syria is engendered deliberately by UKUSIS/Russia to trample on Islam and Muslims in in that country for the benefit of the Zionist/NWO. It’s a scripted film I call Sylliwood.
In Ukraine, 20th century paradigms of Cold War East v West are also red herrings, as are NWO Bosnian-style sponsored ads for Ukranian EU membership. We never know the plot until the story unfolds a bit further in these blockbuster phoney war films. But Putin looks to me like a man who’s already read the full script and learnt his part. Maybe the deal is a promise of a Russian toehold in the West of Syria in exchange for release of Chechnya and later the -stans from the monopoly of Russian influence.
The New World Order means global, not little bits here and there.
CanSpeccy
Why are you obsessed by race? Different people have different histories and perspectives. We have to learn to communicate honestly and humbly with eachother. We are not dogs or flowers being bred for genetically advantageous traits. I hope..
Clark RE Peace…
Aint it a bugger when the fone rings… ( Whatever Mobile Chant )
and the visitor from long ago will be here in like minits…
I had to grab something Quick… A Banner of Chinese wisdom…off the fkn Wall…
If there is light in the soul,
there will be beauty in the person.
If there is beauty in the person,
there will be harmony in the house.
If there is harmony in the house,
there will be order in the nation.
If there is order in the nation,
there will be peace in the world. – Chinese Proverb
i think it’s at least worth a try Mackie…. and to that end i also Apologize to H
Jay wrote:
Yes, it is ridiculous. The interest you get from your investment is a measure of the risk you’re taking in putting your money there in the first place. 25% returns? Good luck on that – you’ll need it.
1%, or 0% return with your high-street bank? That’s just a guarantee that you’ll get your money back. (The government might be actually back-stopping it, but that’s another story).
Payments being extracted from countries where the government has fallen is a different story. Investors knew – or should have known – the risks they were taking. If the government falls, the new administration has the right to declare bankruptcy, the same as any individual or group of them. If you lost money, be glad that you made good on high-risk, high-yield loans while it lasted.
Using the international court to go after crooked deals made with a corrupt, disbanded administration is high jinks by the banksters on the world stage. It’s not like a new set of directors in the same corporation, it’s a different corporation – they just happen to operate on the same land.
As always, these shameless investor-class banksters will have it all ways. High returns on very speculative investments, made in dubious circumstances, with the taxpayer as the guarantor throughout, and the IMF as the collection agency.
Why are you obsessed by race?
Who’s obsessed by race? It was Craig who was speaking for Ukrainian ethnic nationalism. I was merely attempting to point out the humbug in such an argument from a lover of diversity.
Anyway, the who piece is bullshit. So far as US/NATO are concerned, developments in Ukraine have nothing to do with promoting the interests of Ukrainians. Fuck the Ukrainians as US Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland said, or was it fuck the EU? Anyhow, what’s happening in Ukraine is intended by US/NATO as another step in the New World Order assimilation of Eurasia, slice by slice. After Ukraine Belarus, and on from there.
Unfortunately, the process on the ground has been hijacked, for now, anyway, by Jew-hating nationalists who hate the Russians for defeating Hitler. But Craig Murray sympathizes with their aspirations, apparently. LOL.
And here, to be explicit, is the plan for Ukraine and beyond as spelled out by your very own Lord Con Black, Neocon, ex-Con, ex-tycoon, and plutocrat (now of somewhat reduced circumstances).
Some forked tongues were in use in Washington yesterday.
Kerry says ‘Ukraine not East-West battle’
World powers are trying to ease tensions over Ukraine – now battling economic
collapse and growing separatism – amid fears that the nation could be torn apart
http://www.scmp.com/news/world/article/1435592/kerry-says-ukraine-not-east-west-battle
If you saw the video you were left wondering why Hague said nothing and why he looked so sweaty and shifty. He is definitely subordinate to Kerry.
Ukraine has been dropped like a hot potato by the British mainstream media. Absolutely nothing on today’s front pages.
It is top on the BBC website though.
Ukraine is not caught in East-West battle, says US
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26347042
Hague is shown sitting down with Kerry but nary a peep from him.
Who is in charge of the fifteen nuclear reactor power plants at the present time?
Nuclear Power in Ukraine
(Updated January 2014)
•Ukraine is heavily dependent on nuclear energy – it has 15 reactors generating about half of its electricity.
•Ukraine receives most of its nuclear services and nuclear fuel from Russia.
•In 2004 Ukraine commissioned two large new reactors. The government plans to maintain nuclear share in electricity production to 2030, which will involve substantial new build.
http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/Country-Profiles/Countries-T-Z/Ukraine/
OK Canspeccy, I’ll read your link later. Blair’s advisor thought Colonisation is the cure for chaos? Sounds like Blair was the one being colonised, by a swarm of Neo-con devils.
“Only a third of Russian speakers, a sixth of the general population, regard themselves as ethnically Russian.”
I would take that “one sixth” figure with an enormous pinch of salt. People aren’t either ‘Ukrainian’ or ‘Russian’.
The figure comes from an official census. Many people with Ukrainian citizenship – and for that matter, many people with Russian citizenship – have something recorded as their nationality which isn’t very meaningful to them at all. That dates back to the Soviet period.
Some report ‘Ukrainian’ but feel Russian; others report ‘Russian’ but feel Ukrainian; and a large group don’t really give a toss. May that group grow! I’m talking about people who are from where they are from, who speak what they speak, and who probably have views on the corrupt state which governs the territory where they live and its relations with corrupt neighbouring states. For many people, ‘ethnicity’ in the either-or ‘Ukrainian or Russian’ sense doesn’t come into any of that much.
Those damned ‘white men’ with their ‘burden’! With their ‘ethnographic’ preconceptions, whether got from Wikipedia or the FCO! A bunch of little Lawrences of Arabia. Seeking to ‘build nations’. Professing respect for ‘the wogs who try hard’, referring to concepts such as ‘ethnos’ and ‘nation’ as they ignore the power of finance-capital which really rules every country. The can all fuck off back to the stockbroker belt as far as I am concerned.
They and the psy-ops boys and the mercenaries are all part of the same effort.
Many people from the eastern or mid Ukraine, if they live in Russia or go to Russia, will be viewed as ‘southerners’ – either southern Russian or Ukrainian. In a lot of contexts, there isn’t really a distinction.
The blue-and-yellow nationalists hate that.
One of the biggest linguistic markers is the distinctive ‘g’ sound. This is used in Ukrainian and it’s also used in Russian in the ‘southern’ pronunciation.
So, as I was saying, a lot of people don’t give a toss about this ‘Ukrainian vs Russian’ shit. The position has been made worse by nationalist fuckers. Like all nationalists of all descriptions, they are xenophobes.
The hell with all nations!
Craig, nothing about the Treaty of Arbroath… oops sorry, I mean nothing about the Mongol conquest is relevant to how anybody should see themselves today. That crap is used by nationalists to stir up ethnic strife. Money is coming in from the US, the UK, and Germany stirring up civil conflict.
Clark and BrianFujusan
But there is absolutely no need for you to apologise! Unless memory fails, I don’t recall your posts addressed to me having gone over the line from vigorous response and debate to insult.
Judging by the reaction of Macky (00h33 this morning) to your suggestion, I doubt that a multi-lateral agreement will be possible; there will always be some who resort to insult and innuendo as an easy way of “answering” unwelcome points or questions. But bi-lateral agreements – why not?
And in that vein, I wish you both a good day 🙂
Mary
“Kerry says ‘Ukraine not East-West battle’
World powers are trying to ease tensions over Ukraine – now battling economic
collapse and growing separatism – amid fears that the nation could be torn apart
http://www.scmp.com/news/world/article/1435592/kerry-says-ukraine-not-east-west-battle
If you saw the video you were left wondering why Hague said nothing and why he looked so sweaty and shifty. He is definitely subordinate to Kerry.”
________________________
And interesting post and link, but what is your point, exactly?
If Secretary Kerry is sincere in saying that Ukraine should not be a source of East-West conflict, then I should have thought that Hague being “subordinate” to him would be a cause for rejoicing, surely?
More than one (?) commentator here regards nationalism as an undiluted evil. One even seems to suggest that Ukraine must be independent of Russia but abandon any nationalist aspirations…the premiss being that nationalism always leads to bad things. I’d just like to suggest that it is no less true to say that bad things lead to nationalism. Cause and effect are easy to confuse.
Nu Da,
I fear I do not agree with you. From old Soviet practice, all official documents separate your citizenship and your ethnicity, and everyone understands what is being understood perfectly well.
Forgive me, it is ten years since I spoke Russian and I have forgotten the two terms, and whic is which. I have a vague recollection it is something like narodnosh and gradzvanstva, though the second I could be completely wrong about.
All of the people to whom I refer put their citizenship as Ukrainian. Only one sixth of them put their ethnicity as Russian. Two thirds of Russian speaking Ukrainians put their ethnicity as Ukrainian. It is exactly analogous to people who speak English, but are nevertheless Welsh or Scottish. It is just wrong to say all the Russian speakers are Russian, and certainly even more wrong to say they all want to secede to Russia. The area where there is significant support for that is much smaller than the linguistic divide.
Russia Says Ukraine ‘Fascism’ Must Be Condemned
Moscow employs Cold War language to warn its neighbours, as pro-Russia protesters face off with pro-European activists in Crimea.
26 February 2014
Pro-Russia separatists and supporters of Ukraine’s new leaders have come head to head outside Crimea’s regional parliament before a key debate.
Around 2,000 people, many of them ethnic Tatars who are the indigenous group on the Black Sea peninsula, gathered outside the parliament building in support of the ‘Euro-Maidan’ movement which ousted President Viktor Yanukovich.
Russia’s foreign minister Sergei Lavrov photo
Meanwhile, several hundred pro-Russia demonstrators chanted their loyalty to Moscow and denounced the “bandits” who had seized power in Ukrainian capital Kiev.
The two sides, who were held apart by police lines, staged their actions ahead of an emergency session at the parliament to discuss the crisis.
Crimea was gifted to Ukraine in 1954 in the Soviet-era by then Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev. With a part of Russia’s Black Sea fleet based in the port of Sevastopol, it remains the only region of Ukraine where ethnic Russians dominate in numbers.
Russian President Vladimir Putin has ordered an urgent drill to test the combat readiness of the armed forces across western Russia.
“In accordance with an order from the president of the Russian Federation, forces of the Western Military District were put on alert at 1400 (10am UK time) today,” Interfax quoted Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu as saying.
Russia’s foreign minister said the “nationalist and neo-fascist” sentiment in western Ukraine must be “decisively condemned”.
/..
http://news.sky.com/story/1217514/russia-says-ukraine-fascism-must-be-condemned
The Russians are Rumbling Mary.
Same Tactics as were used in Syria…. Snipers –
Who was behind these targeted sniper killings of innocent civilians? What was the underlying purpose? The Daily Telegraph reported that on the 20th of February:
“at least 21 protesters were killed in the space of a few hours”…”… ten corpses were laid out on the pavement beneath the awning of a cafe on the northern edge of Independence Square, where thousands of demonstrators are still camped. At least three of the bodies displayed single bullet wounds to the heads.
The report suggests that the deaths were the result of a precise targeted killing operation pointing to the work of professional snipers:
Moreover, most of the Western media reports failed to acknowledge the role of armed Neo-Nazi gunmen and thugs who had integrated the protest movement and who were involved in systematically inciting violence.
We are dealing with a diabolical agenda: the deaths of protesters in Maidan square triggered by Neo-Nazi elements have been used to break the legitimacy of a duly elected government.
It was not in the interest of Yanukovych to order the targeted killings of civilians by roof-top snipers.
Underlying US foreign policy and CIA intelligence ops, civilian deaths are often triggered deliberately with a view to accusing the enemy and demonizing a foreign head of State or head of government
The Maidan sniper killings are, in this regard reminiscent of what occurred in Syria in mid-March 2011 at the very outset of the insurgency: civilians were killed by rooftop snipers in the border city of Daraa. The resulting casualties –without further investigation– were blamed on the government of Bashar al Assad. It was subsequently confirmed by Israeli and Lebanese press reports, that the snipers were hired mercenaries.
By Prof Michel Chossudovsky @
http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraines-democratic-coup-detat-killing-civilians-as-a-pretext-for-regime-change/5370705
Eh Macky… got you’re name wrong Again… Soz
craig 26 Feb, 2014 – 11:40 am
Narodnost (with a soft sign at the end) is nationality and grazhdanstvo is citizenship, I think.
In Soviet Russia it was like the UK today forms (anketi I think) for everything. I was there in 1982 for a month, there was a derzhernaya, a woman who sat by the entrance to every building, making notes of when you left the building and when you came back. Don’t need them any more because cameras do all that east and west. All the tomatoes were scarred but there were queues to buy them, queues for everything. (Tomato is one of those words that can have a double-meaning in Russian, it also being a word for prostitute.) Tomatoes for export were different, beautiful red and firm. I joined a very large queue for tomatoes where the boxes had been stamped exportny but people were buying them in such large quantities that I never got to the front of this queue before they sold out and the queue dispersed. Buses and trams were never full even when they were full by western standards, people crushed and pushed themselves in (Pushkins I called them), it was cosy but a little too close for comfort.
Things have got to be better today. I wish I knew a bit more about the Ukraine but on the two occasions I got to the border, one on my bike, I was refused entry, and was not prepared to bribe my way in, but I did see a shady deal at the border with a Polish taxi-driver taking on board vast quantities of what I can only assume was contraband goods through the floor of his taxi.
Seems to me what the West has triggered a confrontation with Putin which will ultimately lead to the disintegration of Ukraine, its ethnic Poles joining Poland, the Crimea and the area north of the Sea of Azov joining Russia, and other areas joining Belarus, Moldova, and Romania.
Ukraine is a basket case where most Ukrainians want to belong somewhere else.
The moronic West in wanting to bust up Russia in some kind of zero sum game has overlooked that its neighbors are even more unstable and insecure.
‘The moronic West in wanting to bust up Russia in some kind of zero sum game has overlooked that its neighbors are even more unstable and insecure.’ (Trowbridge)
But it hasn’t overlooked the fact that the FSU countries control a major energy source, to which the West would like to retain access. The original US policy in the MidEast is even more valid here (since no aspiring power in the region has an effective US lobby group); rather than try to control the area directly, split it, bribe and prop up friendly clients and keep the arsenal over the horizon.
But Ukraine and the countries surrounding it have almost no moveable energy sources, so causing a disintegration of the Ukraine just helps Russia and the FSU.
America hoped to have the confrontation in Sochi but Putin prevented it by telling Washington that there would be a war which it would lose if it tried to use a convenient act of terrorism there as grounds for removing the Americans effected.
If Putin had not done this, there would have been chaos there, helping open up the area of Georgia and beyond to the rich energy areas.
The Americans have few ideas about how to really promote their interests and ambitions, only how to use all kinds of means to cause unpredictable trouble.
Its great to see the blog back in good health, the comments back in good health and Craig, given the rapid posts, seemingly in good health.
Good wishes to all including the Mod(s).
Trowbridge H. Ford
Very primitive knowledge of Ukrainian history and its ethnology exposes your primitive conclusion about Ukrainians wanting to break up into pieces and join others with which it has borders. Suggesting that some would even like to join Belarus (which is 15 times smaller) is something that should straight be given the rotten tomatoes sort of award.
This is type of narrow-mindness I was talking about yesterday.
‘…so causing a disintegration of the Ukraine just helps Russia and the FSU.’
Therefore the idea is to retain it intact. And independent. And West-looking. Might even work, given that no-one in their right minds would want Putin running their country, including, I’d guess, a lot of the ethnic Russians.